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Comment by stephen_g | Hacker News Reader

"As bad as their politics has got, Americans could always comfort themselves with the knowledge that their business leaders, entrepreneurs and workers were the most dynamic and innovative in the world."

Do any people from the USA find these sentiments nauseating or is it just the rest of the world? I don't know exactly what they mean by 'dynamic', but the idea that all the most innovative people only exist in the United States (or even that people in the US are on average more innovative than others) is ridiculous, and stating it is just blind nationalism...

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>>the idea that all the most innovative people only exist in the United States (or even that people in the US are on average more innovative than others) is ridiculous

Its not ridiculous at all. For what its worth, it happens to be true at this point in time. Whether it will continue to hold given the poor fiscal health of the US is the crux of the debate.

When I look at my classmates and my peer group, the ones who stayed back in India have (unfortunately) gone absolutely nowhere. The ones who migrated to the USA have gotten multiple graduate degrees in STEM, work at some of the most innovative companies, contribute to technical literature, teach,...

I spoke to a former classmate who came to the US, got his Masters alongwith me and went back home.

"Dude, congratulations, your resume says you are now a Chief Scientist! So when did you complete your PhD. ? What did you study ? More CS ? Math ?"

The guy goes "What are you talking about ? I never studied anything beyond that Masters, and most of that I've forgotten. In India, you just hang around for a couple of years in technology, they make you a scientist. Hang around as a scientist for a couple more years, you are a chief scientist!"

So that's how that goes. I used to wonder when I saw these outsourcing bodyshops ( Infosys, Wipro, TCS etc ) having several Chief Scientists on their staff, as to what sort of "science" goes on at an outsourcing outfit. Now I don't.

In India, its all about 3 things: "ghar, gaadi, biwi". Google that phrase and you will understand the microcosm that is India. When the entire culture of a nation is built around the acquisition of a "house, automobile, wife", why would such a nation breed innovative entrepreneurs at the same rate as the US ? And that's preciely what you'll see if you go shopping for talent in India. The truly talented tech geniuses will give you their right arm for an F1/H1B visa to the USA, and the rest are too busy chasing "ghar, gaadi, biwi". Yes, there are a few exceptions, but that's what they are - exceptions.

The USA has copied that innovation from India. Now we have "Data Scientists"

And of course we've had Vice Presidencies for anyone who can sign their own name in the sales profession and finance sector.

The statement "business leaders, entrepreneurs and workers were the most dynamic and innovative in the world." is completely true. You will be in denial if you do not accept that.

I'm not American and I accept it. If you go to Silicon Valley you will see more Indians, Chinese or European people than Americans.(engineering in USA have 60% foreigners)

There are economic "hubs" where people that do things well love to go as they meet other experts and learn a lot, and could make money doing what they love. Like it or hate it,but a lot of these hubs remain in America.

USA is only 4% of the population, but represents 50% of the economy of the world. If you are creative or innovative in Argentina maybe you could survive as you see only corrupt people can earn money, or you could travel to the USA and get a lot of money.

In South America you can not innovate because there is no middle class, as simple as this is. There is only super rich people that own properties the size of the state of California, or those that have very little. No market for you.

Something similar happens in Africa, when tribal leaders(or kings like Mohamed of Morocco) own anything as "fathers for the benefit of the tribe, or country".

In Europe and Asia population is old and society values "security" and innovators are not good considered if they fail just once(and innovators by definition fail a lot).

> USA is only 4% of the population, but represents 50% of the economy of the world.

According to the IMF, US GDP is actually about 23% of world GDP.

>> the idea that all the most innovative people only exist in the United States (or even that people in the US are on average more innovative than others) is ridiculous, and stating it is just blind nationalism...

You couldn't be more wrong.

First, no one ever said "all" the dynamic people were in the US. The implied point was that the majority of them are. I believe that to be true for some very obvious, logical reasons.

The U.S. benefits from some unintended social and genetic engineering because of a few factors...

1. The U.S. has no ethnic culture (since Europeans supplanted the native population and then opened the doors to the rest of the world rather than embracing an "only European" ideal). So innovative people could more easily immigrate here provided there were advantages to doing so (which there were as I'll outline below). I'm not saying that couldn't happen elsewhere but a Frenchman who lives in England is still considered a Frenchman. A Frenchman who lives in America is considered an American and that inclusion makes people more likely to come here.

2. From our founding to the early 1900s the U.S. was far and away ahead of the world in recognizing and rewarding entrepreneurship. We didn't have an entrenched royalty or class system and democracy made sure laws benefited the populace in general rather than a ruling elite. This drew entrepreneurs to the U.S. and their descendants are likely still here (and in many cases inherited that dynamism either by nature or nurture)

3. From WWII to around the mid-1980s the U.S. was far and away wealthier than the rest of the world because WWII caused decades of damage to the European and Asian economies. Remember with the exception of a handful of planes attacking the West Coast there was no fighting done in the U.S. whatsoever. That means no reconstruction needed while the rest of the world was devastated. So again entrepreneurs (who are drawn to where the wealth is) came to the U.S.

4. The U.S. has a culture built around the idea that you can come here with nothing and become rich. That influences a lot of our laws and customs. For example, there's a reason why our tax rates are lower than a large portion of the world. So even today, when the advantages to starting a company in the U.S. are smaller than they've ever been, the U.S. tends to draw entrepreneurs to it.

So in the end it isn't nationalism it's just common sense.

I think that perhaps the world is a much bigger place than you believe (and maybe this is endemic to the general nationalistic line of thinking that I'm objecting against).

The US has 4.4% of the world's population. How you expect that even with the 'social and genetic engineering' you describe the US could still have the majority, I don't know.

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of innovative people in the US - just that there are greatly innovative people all over the world, and perhaps it's time people start to acknowledge that...

Yes but the western world itself is less than a third of the world's population and no one would argue against it having the majority of so-called "dynamic" people. Without knowing how many people we're talking about (and neither of us do) you can't argue percentage of the population as a reason.

The one point I'd agree with though is this: there are probably tons of third world people who are just as entrepreneurial as people in the U.S. but who don't have the resources to do anything more than start a coke stand. But in terms of dynamic people who have the resources to start a company I still think the U.S. is in the lead

No one is saying that innovation doesn't happen in other places in the world, or that the people there aren't brilliant. Only that by evidence of the size and output of the economy in the US, it is the most effective. That may not be true forever, and there have been a great number of words dedicated to making that argument, but it appears to be true today.

What worries me most about the thinking in the US right now is the xenophobia. If there is one thing I'm most proud of, as a citizen of the USA, it's that people want to come here. I want to welcome them with open arms. I want to work hard to make the US the "place to be" for starting a business.

No one is suggesting that. What is suggested is that it doesn't really matter how innovative you are if you are a child soldier in Zimbabwe, in a place where the taxes are so high that very few can start a new business, or in a country that is so corrupt that only an official's cousins brother could get the necessary permits to do business. Therefore business leaders in the US are more innovative because there are fewer non-merit based restrictions.

The fact is the most successful people in the US were not born here. But ask yourself why didn't Brin, or Grove start companies back home? Mostly because those countries didn't provide the right environment to do so, and America does.

There might be a little confusion with semantics here. I don't believe any of us can argue that the US has't led MOST of the world in innovations that are adopted on a large scale.

There is a difference between being innovative and actually having the resources to profit from that innovation. I've seen ingenious solutions to problems in my travels, but due to the lack of marketing/funding/distribution/etc., these inventions/solutions are only adopted by the town the inventor lives in.

ed, sp.error.

There's so much wrong with this 'common sense' that I don't know where to begin.

Sorry, but this is just nationalist dogma with little basis in reality of the last 60 years.

Funniest bit is implying that entrepreneurship is heridatry!

Actually there's plenty of evidence to say entrepreneurship could be partially hereditary (or more to the point a genetic disposition to be intelligent and a genetic makeup that allows you to deal with stress through low blood pressure, a chemical makeup that gives you a calm disposition, and so on)

So do you have another point or do you just specialize in attacks?

Sure:

1. Explain the economic powerhouses of Germany and Japan in the context of your 'wasn't bombed so more prosperous' theory.

2. Explain the White European Christian dominance of the US in the 'no culture' theory of the US.

3. Explain why if everyone coming to America is an entrepreneur and entrepreneurship is hereditary why there's so many poor people in the US compared to rich people. Did they breed it out of themselves or something?

4. Explain why Britain became the most prosperous and richest empire in the world even though apparently from founding to the early 1900s the U.S. was far and away ahead of the world in recognizing and rewarding entrepreneurship, which is exactly the period that Britain, not the US, rose to be the dominant economic power in the world. Hint, you've got your history wrong.

Remember you accused the original commentator that he 'couldn't be more wrong' without a single shred of evidence just generalisations of an idealized 'American Dream'. It's nationalism dude, sorry.

I'm not sure about the hereditary bit (whether culture or risk aversion can b passed through genetics), but the culture bit has a lot of basis. Just look the the whole 'American Dream'. The US has been sold as a place where anyone can make it with some smarts, work, and perseverance. That attitude was ingrained in the country through its formation and then its expansion. Look at the silver rush in CO, gold rush in CA, oil boom in Texas, financial boom in NYC, and tech boom in SV. People have been coming to the US from all over the world to get rich since the country was formed.

One thing to remember is that the US is a relatively young country. It may be that all young countries have a disproportionately large number of risk takers and that over time that portion shrinks.

There are two parts to these attitudes, and the largest problem is that people in the USA often conflate them. One part is satisfaction (and yes, pride) in real invention, innovation and achievement. I have no issue with this part. People in the USA have done much to warrant some pride. This shouldn't take anything away from people in other nations who have their own achievements.

The second part is the idea of American exceptionalism: that the USA is great because it's the USA. This is nauseating, indeed. It's also obviously harmful, since now "greatness" is a birthright rather than an achievement.

Totally agree. Folks who migrate here keep the "greatness" "non-hereditary". I'm not sure how much longer such a thing will last though, as more opportunities continue to develop in their home countries.

This is indeed nauseating, especially when you consider that the USA is not even in the top 10 in many human development measures. The reflexive tribalism you see on the right makes me think we must be number 1 in self esteem.

OTOH the U.S. has a much more diverse, wideranging population and geography than countries ahead of it in those measures (that I think) you're thinking of. Regions that would be different countries in Europe or Asia are all states unified under a federal system, which has its upsides and downsides.

American exceptionalism isn't just that the USA is great b/c it's the USA, but because it founded as an implementation of a set of moral ideals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

As an American, I agree though, it is nauseating when politicians or citizens pull this card and use it to justify nationalism or other bad things and abuses. It cancels the very reasons for the idea of exceptionalism in the first place.

It's only recently that most of us could have direct access to people in the rest of the world.

We're slowly waking up from our post-WW2 bender, but some people need more time than others. And others are deadly serious about American Exceptionalism. They really believe in it and won't be swayed by contrary evidence.

I'm from Sweden and I don't find much to object to there.

In Europe there are no global companies based on web technology, no Google, no Facebook, no Amazon. Previous tech booms have left little to show for it, I guess ARM is the shining example.

Some old companies have been pretty nimble and have been ccompetitive in new technology, like Ericsson and Nokia. But the landscape is utterly different from the US, and it is not for the better, there seem to be a glass ceiling for startups.

As long as Europe is so pathetic in tech, we don't deserve better than to read self-congratulatory stuff like that. Maybe it will even spur some competitive instinct...

Hmm maybe you are just looking at the web and forget other industries?

Europe has a good tradition in the auto industry

I think SAS is also quite big and european

Also, innovation wise, last studies shown European banks lead innovation (Web access, ATMs, etc)

Green energy tech is also quite popular here (though I have no idea where the actual innovation comes from)

Europe is not the same as America, that's correct. But if you actually look at innovation, there has been more than a few aquisition of Swedish companies. Just counting "Swedish" companies there's MySQL, Skype, C3 technologies, Marratech, Tradera and a lot of others.

This is good nationalism. If you start a myth that Americans are highly innovative and entrepreneurial, and that myth becomes embedded in the culture so everyone believes it, the result is that Americans are more entrepreneurial. If everyone believes that they are, they will be.

Yes, sometimes nationalism can be a fog that hides the truth, but it and other cultural beliefs can also be good for people.

I read those lines differently: The US has an appeal for talented people worldwide (if you work hard, you will be successful) + 50 competing states each with their own government style so you can move without leaving the country + lack of trust in the government (less regulation) = economic liberalism. The economist always advocates this.

There are 50 states.

Thanks, stupid mistake (I'm not from the US of course)

I think he's counting in Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia as distinct, largely self-governing regions.

Why is it ridiculous? Is there some reason why innovative people would spread themselves evenly throughout the world?

It may or may not be correct, but it's hardly ridiculous. If innovative people attract each other, you'd certainly expect some places to have a greater than average number.

True, some places will have a greater than average number. But the implication does not work the other way, that people from that place have a natural tendency for innovation. Nor the inverse, that because my parents were not on US soil when I was born does not preclude me from being innovative.

The claim is that the US has more innovative business leaders, not that innovation is something intrinsic to US-born people.

As I said: "If innovative people attract each other, you'd certainly expect some places to have a greater than average number." I'm implying that the US could have a disproportionate number of innovative business leaders because the innovative people in India or Greece leave and come to the US.

> I don't know exactly what they mean by 'dynamic', but the idea that all the most innovative people only exist in the United States (or even that people in the US are on average more innovative than others) is ridiculous, and stating it is just blind nationalism...

As someone from the heart of the U.S., I believe that creativity, intelligence and industriousness are likely to be evenly distributed throughout the world. What isn't evenly distributed are political, economic and cultural systems which encourage highly talented people to build new technologies and companies. The United States has been particularly good at producing this outcome - many would argue that's been the relative apogee among nations/cultures. Personally, I believe that on a per capita basis, it becomes hard to demonstrate that the U.S. is any more innovative than nations like Japan, Germany and Korea.

This is not intended to be nationalistic. We simply seem to have become optimized for this outcome. Other outcomes - economic equality, social welfare, work/life balance, overall happiness, (arguably - it's a slippery concept after all) are not emphasized as much. Consequently, few unbiased observers would place the U.S. at the top of the pack in those categories.

Isn't The Economist an English magazine, not an American one? I'm not saying the sentiment isn't irritatingly self-congratulatory, but it's weird that this view is coming from a European mag rather than an American one.

"Oct 6th 2011, 16:43 by G.I. | WASHINGTON"

Looks like they have writers in other countries.

Yeah, although oddly enough, G.I. (Greg Ip) is Canadian: http://www.economist.com/mediadirectory/greg-ip

Nauseating because...? It's a post-war truth, it happens at all times that the most powerful cities n states attract the most creative and impactful people. They do not just exist, as if, born superior, it's a process that involves a lot of external assimilation and national filtering.

I'm from the USA and find most of my country to be pretty nauseating. People bragging about American innovation is just a brief dizzy spell that soon passes once I stop rolling my eyes.

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