Elon Musk Draws Criticism from Ukraine’s Zelensky over Russia Tweets | Hacker News Reader

Elon Musk Draws Criticism from Ukraine’s Zelensky over Russia Tweets

wsj.com

30 pointsugnrand21 comments

Can't help but feel that he's using those tweets/polls to draw some sort of conclusion about Twitter's bot stuff to use in court and not really trying to say something about the war. Pareidolia? Could be. Lets wait and see what the future says.

If we consider a sequence of possible events:

1) Ukraine continues to push Russia back

2) Putin, cornered, resorts to nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons

3) Hell ensues

(Note that I'm not saying this is going to happen. Anyone who claims to know that is misguided.)

Then we have to consider alternatives where no one gets everything they want, regardless of who is in the right. Wars don't always end in unconditional surrender, like WW II, and sometimes no one feels good about it.

So good on Elon for stepping up. His is not the only such alternative: Putin getting asylum in a third country is another one.

Ukraine thinks they'll get everything they want because they are winning AND what they want is completely reasonable to the rest of the world, and probably to most Russians as they sober up. If they start sending home the involuntarily mobilized in body bags that might tip the scales for Russians.

Elons ignorant tweet involves Ukraine, which is winning, giving Putin everything he wants just to not hurt Putin's feelings.

Getting everything you want is always seductive.

What Putin wants is a good whipping. If Elon really wanted to help he could supply a couple of dominatrices to do the job.

Why would it tip the scales for the Russians?

It’s not going to just make the Russians become more organised and start winning the war ? Maybe you think it will make Russians more angry and motivated to kill people on Ukraine, mostly though people will just think war is stupid and wasteful.

It'll tip them from not participating in politics to taking whatever actions it takes to remove Putin

That basically suggests that maybe it's a good idea to sacrifice part of Ukraine and the people living there for some kind of temporary peace ?

3 days ago was an anniversary of the last time this idea was implemented in Europe: https://twitter.com/MilHistNow/status/1576085500359675904

It didn't end well - nor it would this time.

I think you need to look at ALL wars and conflicts through history, and not just pick one example. Most of them didn't end in complete victory for one side.

I'm not going to address a straw man argument like "maybe it's a good idea to sacrifice part of Ukraine and the people living there for some kind of temporary peace."

Agree on your first point - not sure it happened frequently though.

As for Ukrainian people - living under Russian occupation is hell - that’s why every single country that experienced it in Eastern Europe is helping Ukraine like there is no tomorrow.

Circa 1994, Poland insisted on joining NATO, otherwise they would start their own nuclear weapons program. Why? Because they didn't trust Russia.

Ukraine voluntarily entered the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty, via the Budapest Memorandum. U.S. U.K. Russia are signatories to these treaties too.

I understand why people are pissing their pants over a hypothetical more than the reality. It takes a lot of courage to confront evil. It even takes courage to admit evil exists. Not everyone has this capability.

Ukraine has a right to defend itself until Russia has withdrawn from Ukraine, and complies with their prior agreements[1], all of which they agreed to voluntarily. So long as they're not complying with those agreements, why bother making another one that they'll just piss on?

It was a Soviet jurist who referred to wars of aggression as the supreme international crime. The worst wars have all been wars of aggression. That is why it is never to be committed. For the first time in history a nuclear armed nation, that's also a founding member of the UN, and permanent member of the Security Council, has directly violated the most important proscription in all of international law. The very reason why the UN exists, and the Security Council exists, is to prevent exactly what Russia alone has done.

Compromise with evil will completely undo what we thought we had learned from WW1 and WW2. There is something you don't fear enough, because you can't possibly have an imagination for it, given what you wrote. Unwinding the current international system of laws is a demand to resume world war, because obviously we did not learn the lesson the first two times around. Abandoning the lessons we have, however imperfect, is what leads to hell! Not defending the most important lessons!

Chamberlain also thought about giving in to tyranny. Tyranny made a peace agreement with him. And then reneged two years later, starting WW2 after it had sufficiently built up its industrial military capacity.

We have very good reason to know if Ukraine doesn't defend itself, it will be exterminated. Russia has published a genocide handbook akin to Mein Kampf [2]. One of the lessons from history is, when they tell you they want to commit genocide, believe them. Whereas Russia could withdraw at any time, and Russians would accept it because they live in tyranny. They'd have no choice but to accept it.

We are dealing with this now because the world ignored the invasion in 2014. We're lucky Putin is so badly prepared in 2022.

[1]

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

[2]

https://human-rights.cmc.edu/2022/04/14/russias-genocide-han...

Maybe try again without resorting to the Munich or WW II analogies.

Cowards volunteer other people to be more brave and sacrifice more than they already have. It's also uncivilized.

There is one escalating party, and Russia can end this war faster than anyone. By withdrawing. In the meantime, Ukraine has the right to self-defense.

I don't even know what you think you're saying by the first paragraph.

Thinking everything is a test of your courage is adolescent, and a great way to get killed.

I never advocated to consider everything a test of courage. I only said it's certain that confronting evil requires it.

As I see it, the "roll over" contingency are emotionally weak, demanding to be coddled by Ukraine sacrificing itself via a land swap, as if this would pacify Putin.

If you want to roll over for tyranny, it's your choice. But it's uncivilized to insist other people do so, so that you can avoid even contemplating hypothetical nuclear war. Suggesting people vote on their own genocide is insanity.

I can only imagine Musk and the "roll over to Russia" contingency are deeply ignorant of Russia's written intent to commit genocide --> that Ukraine does not exist, Ukrainian people and language do not exist - anyone asserting they do, and want independence from Russia, are Nazis and must be murdered. Or maybe worse, they are aware of it and just don't give damn. I'm not sure who having this discussion is unaware that Ukraine already had the election he proposed, but it's pretty damn ignorant to wade into the discussion not directly addressing the election, as if it doesn't matter. And not addressing the Budapest Memorandum, as if it doesn't matter.

https://human-rights.cmc.edu/2022/04/14/russias-genocide-han...

https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1576472432445095938

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