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Comment by seaourfreed | Hacker News Reader

PayPal = USA version of China's Credit Score to hurt citizens

It's worse, they aren't even competent at doing that. I bought a grill from a webstore I found on google shopping that was labeled a "Trusted Store." I hadn't heard of the store before, but I figured if Google is vouching for them, I'll take the risk and cover my bases by using PayPal. If they don't ship me the grill, I won't have to pay right? WRONG.

Turns out the webstore was a scam front. The "seller/scammer" gave me a real Fedex tracking number, but from some other order. It was to my zip code, but it was showing that it was delivered before I ordered, the weight was way too low, the origin was some other business.

The truly concerning part is how PayPal handled it. I wrote a detailed explainatio of the scam, pointing out what they did, and how the contact info on the seller's website was fake. Their automated dispute system instantly declined my dispute merely because the seller/scammer gave them a FedEx tracking number that showed delivery to my zip code. The Paypal website suggests you can file an appeal, but that button was greyed out on my account. If you call, they will literally refuse to talk with you since the "dispute is settled."

The worst part is that this exploit in their dispute system was been public knowledge since at least 2019. You can find all sorts of posts on reddit, paypals own forum, etc. And they still use their broken automated system with no appeal.

Fuck PayPal, that is fraud on their part. They are knowingly aiding and benefiting from fraudulent transactions by rubber stamping it with a broken AI.

I was lucky that I used a credit card with Paypal since I could just dispute the charge with my credit card company. But had I used a linked checking account, I would have been out 1000 dollars because Paypal sided with a scam artists against me in situation where there was no genuine dispute that I was scammed.

Buyer beware on Paypal.

I'm fairly certain that the United States has its own version of the credit score system, called a "credit score".

I guess the parent was talking about "China's social credit system" which allegedly doesn't exist in USA, allegedly...

Indeed, I'm just clowning on them a bit to make a larger point. I do think it's important to make a distinction between "a single company can punish you for things they don't like, if you are their customer" and "broad social consensus that a single number represents your worthiness to interact with large swathes of services" - but we have both, already, in the US.

I believe GP was referring to china's social credit score.

There is no speech or behavioral weighting in the FICO formula. It’s essentially just balances, credit limits and credit pulls and there is no qualitative evaluation of the institutions involved.

"China's Credit score" really is a "Persecution score". "Credit score" is the lie. It is all about persecution. Now PayPal is going 100 mph at persecution with $2,500 * incidents.

Their document says "If you create a message ... unfit for publication". This is a blank check to persecute you (take $2,500 * n) just for non-criminal speech.

Experian and other credit tracking companies don't just track credit history and finances, but much more, like employment history, income levels, civil and legal disputes, etc, and make them available to whoever wants to know that information about you.

Then there are other firms that do similar things, like ClearView AI compiling dossiers on people's online activity and social media posts.

Yes, colloquial usage of "credit scores" in the US typically means FICO scores, but the more general usage that's used to describe China's system as a "credit score" can also describe very similar systems we have in the US, as well.

There are some significant differences. For example, the US has the Equal Credit Opportunity Act which prohibits many or most of the prejudicial factors in China's system. Most institutions in the United States do not purchase the most invasive data products, and our privacy laws are improving when their 'market share' increases in a certain area. This is the inverse of the situation in China. There are other differences besides those.

> There is no speech or behavioral weighting in the FICO formula.

Yet.

Wouldn't be surprised if they add some sort of ESG into the mix before long, in the push to address climate change.

Eat too much meat, fly/drive too many miles, protest for the wrong cause, or like the wrong tweet, and there goes your score.

It seems more likely that ESG will continue to be soft mandated via institutional holder requirements at the corporate level, e.g. the institutions who make the loans available. I agree we should be watchful for any source of loss of personal liberty.

Experian also tracks employment history, legal and civil issues, income levels and what not, and makes those records available to anyone that wants to pay for them.

Such "credit scores" are not just limited to finances in the US, a lot more information than most would be comfortable with is made available to interested parties.

I mean paypal is far from the only option to take payments. They've always been shitty to merchants, especially small businesses. They're also not doing this because the government told them to.

Also, we've had credit scores for decades now.

>Also, we've had credit scores for decades now.

Also, the reason why the social credit system is bad isn't that there's a record of your past bad behavior, it's that it's tied to vague violations like "spreading false rumors". Credit scores aren't perfect, but at least they're tied to a specific bad behavior (failing to pay back debt), and you can demand removal if the other side can't produce evidence of the debt.

Google+ and Facebook were all competing for that spot.

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