Ask HN: How to Stop Caring (Professionally)? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How to Stop Caring (Professionally)?

122 points5350-uiop-1130130 comments

I get stressed out a lot by my work. The people, and the lack of autonomy.

It invades my evenings, my nights, I spend sometimes hours unable to sleep dreading the next day.

I don't have any autonomy. I'm treated as a resource to be "used". And I work with people I don't respect personally or professionally.

I have been looking for a way out for a while, but let's just say that quitting or finding another job is NOT an option for now, for the sake of argument - to hopefully get some actionable advice.

I already stopped caring about my work. But my personality finds it difficult to ignore things that are wrong. Sometimes I look at other colleagues communication with others and it affects me also, I see so much wrong but I can't do anything about it.

How can I just stop caring?

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My advice: start working out a ton. Set a target and keep pushing it. Sign of for races, join a running group.

You’ll quickly build a sense of confidence and be excited about your results. Work will become a 9-5 means to an end and all the weird stresses will wash over you because you feel good. You’ll look forward to waking up at 6am and going for a 10 mile run and will go to sleep early in anticipation.

After awhile, you’ll look at the people above you in the soulless corporation and realize they’ve wasted their 20s/30s climbing an arbitrary layer. I remember going into my first job at Amazon and calling my girlfriend, telling her “These are the richest, most miserable looking people I’ve ever seen”. I looked at the folks that were $SDE+2 and they were doing the same work, they just artificially cared more and would spend their evenings and weekends working.

If you don’t have kids then you’re lucky, you have more time to spend building yourself up.

I guarantee this will work but there is a really rough 1-3 month period before it kicks in.

Start today: do 100 pushups, 100 sit-ups and go run-walk for 20 minutes. Do that everyday, continuing to set goals. Rain or shine. Even when you feel sick, hungry, tired.

100% agree with everything else but definitely don't do 100 pushups/intense workout when you're feeling sick!! That will just make you worse and have the opposite effect! Give your body time to recover!

I personally tell myself that there is no excuse to not put my shoes on and walk out the door. Otherwise I’ll give in because the voice in my head talks me out of it and I’m fairly weak willed.

But yeah don’t kill yourself, barring injury or fever, I don’t give myself any excuses.

The opposite of inspiring. Not listening to your body is not cool.

Fully agree with your other advice though.

I think people are not reading the OP with enough charity. Obviously if someone is actually hurt they need to back off. But listening to our bodies means we wouldn't do anything if it's hard or uncomfortable. It's easy to find excuses to avoid doing something that is good for us in the long term, and the OP is explaining that it's good to keep going even if you don't feel like it.

No, he is right with the hard workout or whatever hard one wants to do. The important part is the "hard" part because it is what generates meaning & self-esteem. People then at least have something in their life (especially if they are stuck in their workplace) which bring them forward.

I also go with a “no excuses” workout style. I feel that works best for me. Otherwise, I can ALWAYS find an excuse, so I do not let myself.

(Not saying that this is right for everybody.)

I’m glad that you (seemingly) found something that works for you. But unless you know something about OP you haven’t shared, you cannot “guarantee” it will work or that it’s even an option.

I’d be specially wary of your final suggestion. Not only is that goal too high for someone just starting, going for a run when it’s raining and you feel sick and tired borders on dangerous advice.

”going for a run when … you feel sick and tired borders on dangerous advice.

It is dangerous AND stupid. If you feel sick - rest. Otherwise you risk every potentially lethal ailment every sensible exercise counsel warns against.

"going for a run when … you feel sick and tired borders on dangerous advice."

While I don't disagree with this I find it interesting how people are so against working out while sick whereas the startup/hustle crowd are all about pushing through it working 24/7/365 even when you're sick. Hustle hustle hustle and all that.

Even outside of the startup hustle crowd many people still force themselves into work when they're feeling sick and tired. I would think forcing yourself to do a 8 hour day in the office plus a commute is more stress to the body then a short exercise routine. Nobody is seriously saying go and run a 5k when you feel like shit but some I often find when I feel under the weather doing some stretches and body weight exercises helps with aches and pains.

I think people are reading the original post a little too literally. I did not read it as drop and do 100 push ups right now! But to start by doing even just one press up and commit to doing that daily until you can do 100 push ups. 100 being any arbitrary number, 50 or 30 works just as well. The point is having a goal and maintaining daily improvement towards it.

>> I guarantee this will work but there is a really rough 1-3 month period before it kicks in.

>> Start today: do 100 pushups, 100 sit-ups and go run-walk for 20 minutes. Do that everyday, continuing to set goals. Rain or shine. Even when you feel sick, hungry, tired.

Good lord man, I hope OP is a 20-something in fair shape. I started running later in life, and then working out. Dropping from a desk job to the ground to do 100 push ups or a 100 proper sit-ups if you have never done it is going to 100% motivate you to never do that again.

If OP wants to go exercise, and has never done so, go look up couch to 5k or start off with 10 proper push ups and 10 proper sit ups and then wait 10 mins and see if you can do 10 more. Do that three times. Give yourself some time to build that up.

This reply I am replying to has no idea what kind of shape OP is in. Don't go nuts on day one, you will spend a week (or two) recovering and this will demotivate you. (and I am no expert, perhaps call a trainer).

The Hybrid Calesthnics guy has a really good program for people like OP ( and me)

https://www.hybridcalisthenics.com/routine

thanks

I know exactly what you're talking about. I was very fit in my twenties, then got badly injured and sort of got very unfit for about ~7 ish years where my focus changed. I recently got back into mountain biking, and the first few hill climbs were confronting to say the least. Literally me lying on the ground holding my chest, and ego thinking "What the actual f--k". The real motivator was having dropped kinda large cash on a new bike. I didn't want to let myself down and quit. If the op has a similar vocation, I'd lean into that stuff. gently, gently of course.

Welcome back :-). What bike did you buy?

I got a Giant Fathom 1. I'm going real easy into MTB. Though with the progressive geo the ride amazing compared to bikes 10 years ago.

Can't go wrong with Giant. The only thing I really noticed over the last decade is how much bigger bikes are. My Production Privee Shan 5 dwarfs my [large size] Orange 224. Back in 2010 the 224 was a beast!

Yeah my memory is of riding dual suspension with 26 in wheels with 2.1 wide tires. And now I'm floating about on 2.5inch maxxis on 29 inch rims. It's crazy what I can just roll over on a hard tail that used to buck me off.

Getting your lungs into MTB shape is so painful (both physically and mentally). Now that I have the fitness, keeping it is extra motivation on top of the pure joy I get from going downhill right on the edge of control. Having a group of friends who also enjoy the same things is also huge for me. We encourage each other to get out more and it's always more fun to ride with others, even for a solid introvert like myself.

> going to 100% motivate you to never do that again

Not only that, it will give you an injury that will take you weeks to recover from.

Mid 30s. I do work out a little but not this extent. It seems a big commitment but I can definitely attest to the difference working out, the relaxation you feel afterwards makes a huge different to your mood.

Also consider looking into Zone 2 training. Here's what I do: 1h of low-level cardio a day. Just to the point where I can have a conversation with someone, where I can still breathe through the nose. Surprisingly, at the end of this, I'm still soaked in sweat, but I don't actually feel exhausted or as if I'm pushing myself very hard during the exercise. At the end of the day though I sleep like a rock. I typically listen to some audiobook or podcast, which gives me something to look forward to and makes the time pass more enjoyable. I heard about it on the Tim Ferriss podcast (the episode with Rich Roll—what a silly name, but the guy is cool), and then looked the subject up. Peter Attia covers it super in-depth, but I found this the most useful read for anyone who just wants to give this a try: https://www.artofmanliness.com/health-fitness/fitness/zone-2...

Aye this should be higher up, when work gets in your way of life, did you really have life in the first place, eh?

>>> Start today: do 100 pushups, 100 sit-ups and go run-walk for 20 minutes. Do that everyday, continuing to set goals. Rain or shine. Even when you feel sick, hungry, tired.

Can confirm - I did this but also with 100 squats and a 10k run daily.

All of my hair fell out from the exertion, but I feel invincible.

Nice to meet you, Saitama!

What are your thoughts on off days? Start introducing after the third year or so?

Need to make up for it though.

Run 20K one day, get to take the next day off.

There are a lot of responses that critique the intensity here which is fair but I think the spirit of the comment is right on.

Even if it’s not exercise specifically. Find something else you can care about!

I’ve had this problem my entire career. I’m over invested in my work even when I don’t want to be and I can’t stop thinking about work (sometimes big things and some times minutiae) and it invaded my sleep. I’ve recently started a few activities that I believe are helping me separate from my work (and sleep at night). Here’s what I’m doing…

1) Exercising to a level I’m comfortable. For me that’s running a few miles a day and incorporating kettlebells, weights or med balls into my morning workout.

2) Reading books and simple puzzles like word search. I wanted to find an alternative to phone and social media - I think too much of that stuff sucks for mental well-being. Currently I’m reading Plato’s The Republic.

3) I started volunteering at my church. Churches and local institutions are suffering right now from lack of participation and have legit challenges to apply yourself to. So far this hasn’t kept me up at night or interrupted my sleep.

So I think the combined effect of these changes is that I’m out of my own head and applying myself to doing things other than using my personal time to marinate in my professional life. Oh and I’m no longer waking up at 3am every night unable to fall back to sleep.

"[...] If you don’t have kids then you’re lucky [...]"

As a lucky man with 3 kids in my 30s, I strongly disagree with your statement.

Exercise is good, but it's my family that keeps me from caring too much about work related stuff.

I also have kids and meant this is more of a time management context. Getting in shape when you’re not sleeping well and juggling schedules is much harder!

What? In my local karate club a black belt test is 100 pushups + 100 situps (after a run but still)))))))

100 pushups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats and a 10km run and you can defeat everyone with one punch

Just be aware that you can lose all hair

This is the second comment mentioning hair loss as a result of exercise. Is this some kind of myth that’s prevalent in some country? I’ve never heard of this before. (Saying this as someone with a lot of weight lifting under my belt and still loads of hair on my head.)

They’re referencing One Punch Man, a satirical anime about a guy who does a bunch of push ups and loses all his hair.

This sounds like something Top G would say. But I agree exercise does help.

You need a therapist.

This doesn’t get talked about enough on HN but therapy is literally life changing.

The good ones are like a mechanic who can fully take an engine apart, lay out all the pieces, clean and replace broken parts, assemble the whole thing back together, and make adjustments to it until it runs like new.

You’ll be able to better understand why you did they things you did, why you currently emotionally respond how you do, and craft the tools necessary to in the future respond intentionally to your own environment.

Don’t get discouraged if you don’t see progress with your first therapist. Try a new one. This is a highly intimate service and you deserve someone who is a good fit for you.

And like mechanic's finding a good one is both hard and rare....

Instead of " can fully take an engine apart, lay out all the pieces, clean and replace broken parts, assemble the whole thing back together" many will (if you are luckily) charge you for new Blinker fluid and piston return springs (i.e do nothing) or if you are unlucky will take your engine apart and then put it back together with the wrong parts.

Not to mention that it's hard to know if you are having a skilled theraphist or not. That said, having a person to just speak your mind helps. The theraphist is there to listen and can offer feedback on your thoughts.

Finding _any_ therapist here in Germany is hard, if you don't want to shell out on one that is not covered by insurance. The waiting lists are often 6 months to a year. I'm a year long waiting list...

Correcto. Also - what a therapist can be good at varies. They might be really good at zoning in on specific traumas but absolute dogshit at getting you over your general malaise.

I went to a therapist because I started having very obvious anxiety attacks (and my life sucked generally) but I couldn’t pinpoint the reason down. They were able to immediately pinpoint the source of the anxiety attacks (abandonment issue) and I stopped having them immediately cause that’s all I needed to hear to get over it.

But when it came to trying to get over my chronic stress and malaise and overall shitty life/lifestyle? They had nothing. They were basically like - “well you are with the wrong partner, you were born poor, and you’re trying to live in the most expensive place in the world and do it on single income. Yeah - you’re gonna fucking suffer. Sorry I have literally no solutions except move away and give up - which obviously does nothing for you because you’d never be here if you were the type of person to ever give up career wise or in relationships.”

It was like talking to a brick wall for those issues. Great for specific trauma problems - terrible for anything more ambiguous. Which - to be fair - I really don’t think any therapist could solve. It’s why I don’t think I’ll ever go back. It doesn’t seem solvable by wishful thinking.

I would give them credit for saying they could not do anything instead of attempting to drug the general malaise out of you like many in the field of mental health seem to desire

“ Don’t get discouraged if you don’t see progress with your first therapist. Try a new one. This is a highly intimate service and you deserve someone who is a good fit for you.”

This is really good advice.

Therapy has many different “modalities” and therapy with one person can be veeery different than with someone else.

So how are you all finding a good one?

1000% This. A good therapist can help you figure out why you feel the way you feel. For me, I put my self value in my work, so if my work or the work of those around me was not up to my standard, I'd take it as a blow to my self worth.

I don’t know if this will help, but I can tell you what helped me. Quite a few years ago, I stopped working as an employee and started working as a freelancer/consultant. I get that that’s probably not an option in your case, but let me continue.

In doing that, I changed my perspective, in a way that I think may also be possible while still working as an employee. The only company I worry about now is me, my own business, my own career, my own success.

That’s not to say that I don’t want my clients to be successful, or that I don’t work my ass off trying to help them be successful, but I don’t worry if they aren’t. Why not? Because I understand that I have no control over them, no way to prevent them from making bad decisions, no way to prevent them from being managed poorly (as most companies are).

The problem is that employers want you to have an emotional stake in their success — to take personal responsibility for their success — but you ultimately have no control. That’s kind of the point of stock options — making you care the success of the company as a whole so you’ll work hard and stick around — but really you don’t have real control over the company’s success. And that dynamic — giving responsibility without control — is a classic sign of bad management.

So don’t play that game: only take responsibility for, only worry about, the things you have control over. And for most employees, that’s just themselves. Focus on the success of your personal business — how you do your assignments, the next step in your career, your mental and physical health, your family — and let the rest go.

Exactly this. I've been through what OP described. I eventually resigned this January after a 8 year long abusive career, and decided to freelance with my friend who had already been doing this for years.

Changing your perspective and worrying about yourself as a business is the best thing to do.

>Why not? Because I understand that I have no control over them, no way to prevent them from making bad decisions, no way to prevent them from being managed poorly (as most companies are).

I think this is a necessary attitude to adopt, even as an employee. You need to draw boundaries about what you care about, and one of those ways is to evaluate if people you work with actually care about something or if they only say they care about it. If you're not responsible for it and others don't really care, you should also try to not care.

I'll give a concrete example. I worked on a project recently where I was dependent on somebody else to finish something. They are perceived as a somewhat competent but lazy person and they took a very long time to get it done. Certainly much longer than other people would have done. Despite claims from our management that this was urgent, no additional people were added to that task to speed it up. Actions speak louder than words - if it really was urgent they would have asked somebody else to do it. So when my part was delayed I simply said I was blocked and tried my best to let it go and not get frustrated.

I had a major burnout years ago and one of the big reasons was because I took responsibility for my management layer understaffing projects that were supposedly a top priority. The priorities were always talk, but no action to add people or manage expectations with the user/customer(s). It look me years to realize that instead of fully putting the blame on my management, I should have stood up for myself and said I can only do what I can do and that's it.

>So don’t play that game: only take responsibility for, only worry about, the things you have control over. And for most employees, that’s just themselves.

100% Agree. You can strive to do the best you can do so you don't feel like you, personally, are doing a half-baked job. But beyond that, it's not your problem anymore.

> So don’t play that game: only take responsibility for, only worry about, the things you have control over.

you're right, thanks

"it's a fool who plays it cool by making his world a little colder" (Lennon/McCartney)

> How can I just stop caring?

Don't. Your ability to care is the only thing that separates you from a dumb machine. In the future that skill will be a most valuable asset if you want work in a world of "AI".

Don't confuse stress with caring. Use your care to fight the machine and the idiots, and if you can't win then kill the shitty job, not your precious capacity to care. Take your care somewhere more deserving.

I agree. But there’s also an argument for moderation and picking your battles. It sounds like OP needs to figure out how to temper his caring (what this post is about) or as you say switch jobs.

Here's your first essential realization: the thing that you do for money does not define you as a person.

Imagine that tomorrow your job changes. All your old projects are cancelled, and your new project requires you to remotely supervise an automated sawmill. You have a dozen camera views, five ways to unjam the machine, and something that needs a little bit of attention from you once every five minutes or so. Your pay and benefits remain the same. The hours are fixed: if you do the job competently, you get a five minute break once an hour, an hour for lunch, and a 15 minute break in mid-morning and mid-afternoon.

After a day or two, there is nothing of intellectual interest here. Nothing will change. Your work is necessary, but it does not march towards any goal other than the total wood sawn at the end of the day.

How does this change you?

You are definitely without useful autonomy. You are a cog in a machine. You don't work with anyone, really. It is not going to be fulfilling.

But this is so different, because you don't have the expectation that somehow, this remote wood-cutting work is supposed to fulfill you. You will need to define yourself in other terms: as a person who is part of their community, who has interests and hobbies outside of work.

The hard part is the deep understanding that work is not life, and that your feeling that work is supposed to address your non-material needs is orthogonal to the reality of work.

There are jobs that connect you more deeply to your community, or try to fix the world as a whole. But on a daily basis, they still involve tasks that are not intrinsically fulfilling.

The meaning is what you put into it.

Aside from the very valid responses around therapy/mindfulness/hobbies/etc, here's some career advice:

* Become less dependent on your employer (build a public profile. Blog, speak, etc).

* Put yourself in a financial position where you can weather whatever storms come up (layoffs, bad bosses, drama, etc)

* Interview more, at least get in the practice of it. Think of it more as having conversations to understand the possibilities, then hard commitments. You will screw up many of these, (I know I have!). Luckily there's always more fish in the sea.

* Remember _they need you_ - software developers aren't exactly growing on trees these days. They need you to be a viable business as much as you need them for your income.

* Set boundaries - people just need to be told no, what you won't deal with, etc. This helps ensure you're not internalizing what's really an external problem. An imperfect boundary is better than never setting boundaries.

* Try to find/remember that small nugget of 'positive' stuff you enjoy about your work. I remember how much I enjoy building software and try to edit out the rest. Focus on cultivating that, try to put your energy there and not the noise. You are where you put your time.

* Behavioral activation - if you have a hard time doing a task, literally just getting started helps you get more interested in it.

* Remember it's usually not about you - whatever frustration you experience at work, it's probably systemic and something other people deal with. Not about targeting you personally. This can help you roll your eyes at whatever politics and drama and move on.

* Find peers that feel the same. To the last point, if you have a peer group, you can compare notes and figure out what problems are systemic, or maybe about the personality of a boss, etc.

* Know its imperfect. We're human. Despite the best advice, therapy, mindfulness, and preparation we will still sometimes get caught up in it. We're all works in progress. Don't be too hard on yourself.

> Remember _they need you_ - software developers aren't exactly growing on trees these days. They need you to be a viable business as much as you need them for your income.

I really need to emphasize how wrong this is. Your employer definitely doesn’t need you unless you’re working for an exceptionally small company/org where you can hold them hostage/ransom.

You are dime a dozen in the real world. The only reason you’ll ever get a sense that they “need you” is because you are being chronically underpaid and you are so incredibly cheap that just talking to you for 30 minutes to do X is way more efficient than paying you the 3x you’re worth.

I’ve seen engineers being paid 7 figures thrown away over trivial bullshit. You’re not needed.

I will bite. I dont think you care as much as you claim (or think) you do. Its likely you are not respected amongst your peers (for whatever reason) and you feel alienated. I've seen too many employees cite "lack of autonomy" because they want re-write code in Julia (for example) instead of prioritizing tasks they were hired to do. They think management doesn't "get it".

> But my personality finds it difficult to ignore things that are wrong

That's what you think. Maybe you are a man-child throwing a tantrum? The tech world is filled with such folks.

Even if everything you said is accurate, you will be happier if you dont play the victim card.

I feel that this may be closer to the mark than many will care to admit. The moralistic tone of OP leads me to believe that they are blind to how arbitrary their concept of “right” and “wrong” are. Killing a puppy for fun is wrong. Not “fixing” some piece of code that tilts you is not “wrong”. So unless the OP is engaged in a seriously unethical industry I think some self-reflection is in order. Work on your own attitude. Don’t become one of these developers that had 15 different employers in 10 years because nobody lived up to your unjustifiable ideals.

Good point. Another comment mentioned therapy which could help the OP look inward.

Running around thinking that everyone else is the problem is never a recipe for success. My favorite thought whenever I feel myself slipping into that mode is to think 'do I want to be right or effective'. It immediately puts me in an in control, empathetic, problem solving mindset.

Lack of authonomy is an inherent trait of most jobs, including coding. (I mean, as a coder, you basically have an infinite queue of tickets to implement, and you have little to none say about what's in them in the first place. That's your work life.) Just because something is ubiquitous doesn't mean that it's healthy or even "normal" and that people should just "grow up" and accept it. Let's just take it for what it is - a way to make meaningful amounts of money, at the cost of mental health and other vital aspects of being human - just like most jobs are (only, in most jobs, the amount of money aren't even that good).

Been there. Remember the immediate priority of work is to satisfy your personal security so that means cash. Always. Then remember it's someone else's cash. If you are an employee and it goes to shit it's not your problem. Just think of the cash building up, not the carnage, chaos and mayhem. Picture yourself as an outsider looking in and distance yourself from it as much as possible. It's not worth killing yourself with effort or concentration over someone else's shit show.

With that in mind, write down what you want out of your life and job and set some simple easy to achieve short term objectives. They might be health or learning related. Then go out and do them. This will build motivation to actually deal with the issue which is the job sucks and you need to change it. Write down criteria for your new job and spend your time finding it. Don't just jump on the first thing.

It's really important to get yourself together mentally before you jump ship though because it's very easy to end up in exactly the same situation or worse if you make a rash uncalculated decision.

I've been in this situation in the past. One way I've found very useful to deal with it is to have a project outside of work. It can be anything from a hobby to your own startup. Ironically, having a side project made me more effective at work. Since my ego was no longer tied to the success or failure of the company, I found that I could do what I needed to do at work well, while not getting agitated by happenings outside of my control.

The technique worked so well, that I've continued doing it even after the situation resolved itself. To date, I still keep a strict boundary time for when to stop work and switch to the side project every day. I spend about 4hrs of my day on the side project and about 8-10 hours on professional work. I find myself being really productive and yet not getting exhausted by what would otherwise be grinding 14-hour days.

And once a year I take an entire month off, and leave my work phone/computer at home while I go on vacation.

It's a very strange narrative you have. You can't quit? yet you can't stop caring?

Ok so, moving beyond the staggering premise, let's look at the source of the problem - answer the question: why do you care?

- you care because you're invested - physically, man hours, mentally, emotionally, describe these and be honest with the situation.

- you care because it defines you - it's your baby, it's your everything

- I can't think of a third one

Either case, you have to let go of it. Find a way of letting go. Work is work, therefor nothing should be personal. It's a transaction of work, effort, time against money. I know there is more to it, but imagine swapping job with someone random in the world for a day, that's that.

Secondly, nothing is ever yours at work, it is property of some company, or an IP of an entity. You're far more than your work. The knowledge, the experience, the resilience, the care you have for it is irreplaceable and no one can take that away from you.

As for actionable, try pretend you don't work there anymore. You're just on some retainer, some maintenance contract. Mentally check out of the nonsense of your colleagues, because, it's just that.

Set up timers on your phone for breaks at brunch, lunch, afternoon tea and clock out time, follow by them as much as possible. Make work work for you and not the other way around.

At the end of the day, you're replaceable, the work is just money and those dickwads aren't family. I'm being blunt but it sounds like you need a bit of that.

> I can't think of a third one

Slight alteration on your "because you are invested," there can just be a sense of responsibility.

I was at the DMV last week and I took over some front desk duties because it needed doing. There was only one front desk person with everyone else hidden behind partitions. They left for like 20 minutes and a line was getting crazy and people were confused and worried.

I stood up got everyone's attention and repeating what I heard earlier, "Hey, I don't work here but I don't like this chaos. If you do not have an appointment, please wait in the line outside. If you do, please come over here and take a picture of this qr code to get your ticket number and look to the teleprompter to see when your number is called."

People burst out smiling with relief and organized to take the qr pics. I was seen shorty thereafter.

> - I can't think of a third one

To help out on that: Try to understand how an INTJ personality works [e.g. 1, 2]. (The OP seems to be one judging by what was written here).

Just imagine there are people who hate nothing more than "things that are wrong". But almost everything created by humans is very, very wrong, on all possible axes (that's actually the definition of "the human factor", imperfection). Also those people hate it when others tell them how to do things; especially as the people who think that they can tell others how to do something are almost anytime wrong anyway. (Most people are wrong with almost everything in life because most humans aren't able to think logically and just repeat something they saw somewhere without ever thinking about it; humans are apes, never forget).

For an INTJ there is no option to "stop thinking" about the wrong things that surround them. There is only "fix it or die trying".

For the OP this would mean that all that they can do is to leave the current place for one where things are less wrong. Otherwise the current situation could indeed kill them in the long run, or at least completely destroy their mental health (something that would take many years to fix again if even possible).

(There is btw. a salient overlap between the percentages of occurrence and personal traits of INTJ personalities and personal traits associated with people on the autism spectrum, at least when it comes to the high-functioning "light" autism variants. Autistic people generally dislike "change". That could be the reason why it's so difficult for people with such personality traits to just leave a place that has obvious negative effects on them. But that's only my personal theory at the moment; never tried to investigate whether there is research that could confirm this relation).

[1] https://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality [2] https://www.truity.com/personality-type/INTJ

The common theme is that you need a new focus and all this stress is telling you that. It's fine to be wholly job focused when you own a part of it, but even that requires other outlets.

You need something else. The job needs to fade away when you leave work. If you are single, then pick some type of workout. Family people tend to concentrate more on the family. Pick something that excites you. If this isn't clicking then get a therapist. You need a mental tuneup. If that thought offends, then remember a lot of successful people do this. Sports have coaches that provide the same function.

The funny part is that you will be better at the job because problems will be in the back of your mind when you do other things and you will be healthier.

Very true I think. I don't have anything to distract me.

The obvious answer (new job) being off the table, have you had a look at the philosophy of Stoicism? It's about recognising the boundary between the things you can control (your opinions, your actions) and the things you can't (everything that everyone else does) and thereby come to some peaceful coexistence with a chaotic and challenging world, and also learn to handle difficult situations in a constructive (to your mental health) way. I think this would be a good fit for you in dealing with your stress over your lack of agency (e.g. "I see so much wrong but I can't do anything about it." - indeed you can't and the problem you have correctly identified is not that per se, but how you feel about it).

Generally, doing sports is a good way to let your mind relax.

Apparently the way to handle intrusive or nagging thoughts are mainly two ways.

The first way is to realize that thoughts come and go. They are backround noise. Not every weird thought, or worry, that pops in your head is "you". One can observe the thoughts, from a mental distance, without judgement, without owning them.

The second way is to actively distract yourself. Either by doing something that occupies your full attention. Or, not following a line of thought, conciously, actively thinking about something else. You can try to make it a habit of not actively thinking too much about the things you cannot change. Instead, actively think about the things you CAN change.

On the one hand, I do think this what you're attempting to cultivate is essentially learned helplessness. This is the road to depression and burnout. If you're frustrated all the time with bullshit at work, just ignoring it and pretending not to care _will_ have long term ramifications for your mental health. Trust me, this is a road that leads you to particularly dark places you do not want to visit and that can take a long time to get out of. This journey into darkness can consume years of your life. 2 out of 5 on Tripadvisor.

Beyond that, if you want to care less about work, my advice is to fill your life with things that matters to you outside of work.

My advice would be to add more pillars to your life (for a lack of a better term):

If you only have work in your life (I am non-judgementally assuming that is the case, sorry if I am wrong), your life will be awesome if work is going great, and hell if it is not. By adding more pillars in the form of hobbies, sports, romance, friendships, side projects, you increase the chance of turning a “my work sucks” into “my work sucks but my training for sport XYZ has been going pretty great recently”. And maybe later it is the opposite way around.

I call those things pillars because they help you bear the weight of your life. The more and the stronger, the easier the load.

I've been in a very similar situation, and I hate to break it to you, but the best course of action here would be precisely what you imply is not possible. Quit. Autonomy is extremely important for personal and professional growth. Your psyche is correct in letting you know that the situation you're in is not a dignified one for a human.

With that said, the “patch” I've used back when I was in a similar situation was actually to care about the “smaller” things in my work. That is, things that aren't unimportant but are often overlooked. I don't know what job you have, but as a developer, I was able to start experimenting with how we do testing and deploys, improve documentation, think about how I would refactor the codebase if I had the chance. That gave me “internal autonomy”, so to say. Making sure that my skills that can't really be developed would at least not degrade. That helped a lot when I finally quit and found a job with much more autonomy. Finally being able to “do it right” while also having the way to “do it right” right there with me.

Once out of necessity (my wife just got pregnant) I was forced to accept a dull job that was paying good. The first few months, I was miserable and I was continuously looking linkedin. Then when my daughter was born and a few months had passed I even started doing interviews. But eventually, that dull job also had very good work life balance, I had to do very little and I could help my wife with my baby daughter. Eventually I started to appreciate that and allowed myself to be in a dull position and enjoy my extra time with my daughter. Eventually I came to love that position, and not give a damn about everything else, I allowed myself to changey focus on something else, which in my case was being a dad, but could be something else for you. It was more the self image I had of myself and how I allowed my job to define me.

Notice one thing, the job did pay well enough so money wasn't a concern there.

What happened next? Did you grow to a higher level in that job? Did you accept a challenging job after couple of years?

I know you asked for other answers, but sincerely, I think any solution you'll find will be a temporary band-aid.

You cannot exist in an environnement where you feel used, where you dread social interactions and where you find the whole structure of the job baffling and inefficient.

You have outgrown this job, and you need to find another one. If I were you, I would look around either for similar jobs or for jobs that are just a little over your current capabilities.

I've found that these feelings of being very critical of your environnenent come from being underchallenged and understimulated.

As unnerving as this sounds, and as dumb as this comment is, have fun with it! I'm sure you are a competent and intelligent person. Just bet on yourself, and look for a way to safely find another job.

There is no shame in going on welfare for a bit to look for better work. It's your money! :)

Think of it as refactoring your brain. There are belief systems that depend on one another and you can't easily swap one out for another without it spilling into dependent systems.

The big bang rewrite of your brain isn't a possibility just like it isn't one for codebases. Viewing the riddle this way will let you put the fun part of your profession in the driver's seat. What will you change to make the 'impossible' possible?

You’ve received a lot of good advice in this thread about lifestyle and mental health changes. However, there’s a big warning sign in your post that something else is going on:

> I already stopped caring about my work. But my personality finds it difficult to ignore things that are wrong. Sometimes I look at other colleagues communication with others and it affects me also, I see so much wrong but I can't do anything about it

This is a red flag that the issue isn’t actually your work. If you’re getting worked up by reading other people talking about work that isn’t related to yourself, something else is going on.

You shouldn’t be losing sleep and getting depressed because you aren’t in control of what other people are doing on other projects. You must learn to focus on your work.

Being too controlling of what others are doing around you is a serious problem. No company is going to encourage or enable this behavior, especially when you’ve already given up caring about your own work as you said. In fact, this is something that managers have to proactively shut down or even manage out of the company: It’s no good to have busybodies who can’t care about their own work but won’t stop interfering with other people doing their work. It’s a net negative for everyone involved, and net negative people tend to get fired eventually (rightly so) for the health of the team.

You need to learn to focus on your work and ignore what other people are doing. Acknowledge that you have a major control problem that needs to be addressed.

One trick is to shift your shit giving to something outside of work. It can be a hobby, side projects, travel or people. For example, if you are in software, start some side projects. These can be simply trying out new FOSS tools and reporting bugs. Better yet, see if you can use these tools for work. Working on FOSS tools can give you autonomy and enrich you with confidence and provide enough distraction from painful thoughts at work.

Given that I know anything about you, have you considered if the job is the only important thing that may be going in your life? If most of the time in your day goes around work then the mind can easily obsess. Doing different activities will help a lot to disconnect and hopefully doesn’t make you go to the other extreme (not caring at all) but at least only care during working hours in a fun way if possible.

The main thing that helped me let go a bit was meditation, but it doesn't work for everyone. I used to have Generalised Anxiety Disorder, literally a constant sense of both perpetual dread about nothing in particular and perpetual worry about lots of things in my life, and also I had social anxiety. Meditation, somehow, got rid of both. I still have depression though, which seems far harder to fix.

It sounds kind of stupid, but the thing that really let me know that my anxiety was gone was when I realised I could smoke a lot of weed without any anxiety, which before would have been ridiculous, since I always panicked at the bodily sensations. Of course, meditation helps you learn to accept with equanimity a wider range of sensations that come up. Again, it did not help with my depression as much though.

Re : meditation as cure for generalized anxiety.

Same here. Meditation cured it.

I lost my taste for weed tho.

I do dry vipassana every day.

Biggest thing I ever found.

Used to do concentration+vipassana, but that's too trippy for my lifestyle.

I also lost the taste for weed. I found it boring without the anxiety ironically. Recently I stopped sitting for some reason, since I became a bit jaded with Buddhism as a religion and I got a knee injury from too much meditation. Btw I was doing shikantaza

I'm not really into Buddhism either. I call the techniques "concentration" and "vipassana" because that's the popular terminology.

Vipassana is basically the same as shikantaza. As I see it, we've got 2 techniques. Then a dozen or so twists, combinations and names, depending on the tradition.

Have you tried a seiza bench? It's easier on the knees. Really comfy actually. Here's some info on that.

http://fleen.org/sit (the top 2 pics)

http://fleen.org/bench

Hmm I should try a seiza. I practised in the Soto Zen tradition and some of the places here can be weird and strict about posture. Unfortunately my flexibility is not enough even to do Burmese safely for long periods, I’m not sure why

I used to do half lotus on a pillow. It always strained my knees. Then I hurt my knee doing this other thing and couldn't do half lotus anymore. Then I found seiza. It was like, "where have you been all my life!!!"

Apparently some Tibetan Buddhists are all about seiza on a bench. The top students inherit the master's bench and such.

So it isnt just for stifflegged westerners. Ancient wizards think it's cool too.

I would start seeing a therapist. Someone who can help me unpack my feelings and thoughts. Get to the “why” and also guide me to find my own way of coping with the environment. And just to vent.

Questions that I would explore with a therapist after reading your post - my two cents:

Is the actual work or the people that are draining me?

Why don’t I feel autonomy - is it a micromanaging boss or do I need a lot of freedom? How does my coworker feel about the situation?

How was my last employer?

Why do I have difficulties accepting things that are wrong?

Depending on how you answer these questions you can take different actions. Maybe you’ll find a new perspective that makes you situation more manageable. Maybe you’ll find old habits that you can change.

I wish you the best of luck!

In my experience, which may not match yours, I care too much about work when:

A: I'm desperate for the income or health insurance B: I've got no or little fulfilment outside of the job

With A a solution is to accept the need and act to slowly remove the need.

With B a solution is to get out and live. Do things that obligate you to be present, and out of your head. Echoing the comment about exercise, but make it fun. Play games with friends, play with dogs, even if you don't have one, explore a big park, jump in cold water. Anything to shake out your head, not as a solution, rather as it's own joy. Anything that you would enjoy even on the day your job flies out the window.

I have always struggled with pure exercise (lifting weights/running/swimming). I get bored. So, at 31 - I started doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It took a few months to feel like I understood enough to play the game (and not just get crushed everyday), but five years on I’m a lifer.

We all live in our own world of the mind. Everything is subjective. The thoughts and memories that we struggle with are not the issue believe it or not. What traps us is our fear of uncomfortable feelings. You don't need to run from or reject these feelings though. Try being open and accepting. Explore your own conditioning and feelings. It can't hurt you but if you 100% accept your feelings you are free. When you feel something uncomfortable try just sitting as still, quiet and relaxed and just let it happen. See if you can find what it is about it that is bad or should be rejected. I think you'll find that it's not inherently bad at all. It's just a different feeling. If you don't run from your feelings and you accept them the thoughts and feelings that brought them up become irrelevant because, after all, this is 100% subjective. Nothing "matters". Nothings is "important". You don't "need" anything. Our conditioning tells us we need things and the uncomfortable feelings enforce that believe. Free yourself by doing ... nothing. Just accept it as it is :)

Apart from what's already been said: Watch the movie Office Space once every couple of years.

' [...] I'm treated as a resource to be "used" [...]'

That might not be a great feeling, but it goes both ways. Treat them as your source of income, nothing more.

I recommend researching the “Dichotomy of Control”. There are some things in life that you have control over and some things that you don’t. Rationally it doesn’t make sense to worry about the things that aren’t under your control. If you have a correct understanding of what things are in your control and which aren’t, and focus only on what’s in your control, it can really help you to stop caring so much about things that aren’t important.

Not sure I can offer advice, just an anecdotal observation from a fellow hacker. I used to care _a lot_ about work which netted me several startups CTO gigs, since people want caring people working as their leads, generally.

But at some point I was thrown into a situation where I lost a 10 year old relationship, and had to rebuild my life from scratch, and realized that for me, caring for my work environment was mostly because I had a stable and nice environment at home, and needed to take on challenges and risks somewhere, so naturally the workplace provided such an outlet.

Once I was “alone” I suddenly could take much more risks and excitement from my personal life, so work became not that important - got a sailing license, a motorbike license, traveled the world, started latin dances, stuff like that - things that I always wanted to do, but dismissed as “too risky to even attempt”.

I guess I will always have a “risk appetite” where I express it though is up to me. So far I like where my life is going :)

I'd never considered this perspective before, but after a 14 year relationship ended for me the exact same happened. I never before linked the two changes together, ty for that.

I don't know the answer, but here's some of my thoughts:

Identify the things you can help with, and the things you can't. Reserve your energy for the best opportunities to make a difference.

Also, you could do your own personal project for a while. I did some of those and realised that I'm almost 100% happy with the personal project, and I think I'm happy not because it's perfect, because I control everything to my satisfaction. Now at work I think "I've already proven that I can do something that I feel is perfect, so it doesn't matter that this is (very) imperfect, it's just outside my control."

Finally, another thing I've been thinking recently, is "find the fun in everything". Work is part of my life and I want to enjoy my life, so for any task I think about what parts of the task are enjoyable as I'm doing the task. Just thinking about and identifying what is fun about any task makes it better.

Since you consider yourself a "resource" I'm assuming you do hands-on development work on some sort of product.

If so: introduce and start enforcing Scrum. If agile is not in the DNA of your company Scrum offers a way to force an Agile process withing your company. With Scrum you (and your team) can gain autonomy over the development process. It allows you to create a clear separation of responsibilities towards whomever is using you as a resource. You own the development process. They own the business process. Turn the tables: start pushing them to have their business processes in order (Scrum gives you many options). Demand proper business requirements.

But there's a but: Some developers exactly prefer not to have ownership. They just want to work from 9 to 5 and have them handed a list of to-do's that they can work on. This is where development themselves gives away autonomy.

Letting go can be very difficult. I would advocate for all suggestions already made in the comments so far, particularly working out and setting outside work goals. This helps create outlets and boundaries for yourself.

I try to remind myself that even if things are wrong, poor design, bad technology direction dictated from on high, even apathetic or stubborn colleagues, etc., I continue to try to find as much wiggle room as I can to make it as not terrible as possible, and never stop advocating for a better approach. I have found that repeating yourself enough, with evidence and data, eventually leads to others repeating it back to you as some new idea. It is a long game approach, but it does not fill that immediate change/feedback desire.

Ultimately you choose to change your company, or change your company. It is up to you to choose which one is worth your time investment.

It’s hard to stop caring about you’re work. It’s a part of you, you are creating something after all. And often at work it’s hard to let your coworkers down, because the job may be terrible but you like them. It’s wrapped up in our identity. Often when meeting someone new people ask “what do you do?” And the answer is work related.

You say you stopped caring, but you are still stressing. You should look at that a bit.

Other advice here seems solid, other activities will make work seem like what it is, exchanging your time for money.

Part of it is it takes time to adjust. I went from a place where we tried to make software really perfect, to a start up I reported a bug and the CEO told me not to fix it. (In our meeting he assigned it low priority. He said he could see it was bothering me but reiterated to leave it be. He was right, but it hard for me not to care.

But my personality finds it difficult to ignore things that are wrong.

Thinking that the decisions are wrong ignores the fact that the people you work with probably aren't idiots. Remember that most of the time you're operating with on incomplete information if you're not being asked to make decisions. You're asked to complete tasks, but not given the information that drives the decisions about which tasks to do or how to do them. Consequently from your perspective the wrong decisions are being made, but if you had all the data you might not feel that way.

You need to learn to trust your colleagues, or get into a position where you're being asked to voice an opinion on what's being done. Then you'll still care but at least you'll know why.

Don't stop caring. Caring is good, you should care about things.

Caring is humbling. It helps you see the damage your actions and attitude cause people. I doubt you walk around flipping off your coworkers and knocking their plants over, I'm saying all of us affect people around us in bad ways if we're not mindful of ourselves.

What would it take for you to found a company? You could go big, like pitch a business idea to investors, or turn yourself into a one-man consultancy at an exorbitant hourly rate.

I have a buddy who did the latter. He'll take a boring C# gig for 6 months, amass a pile of savings, and live off of it for a while, while he paints his house and fiddles with IoT projects. It's more risk, but it can buy you more freedom.

You need to decrease your productivity during the work day. Various strategies are to finish the work day in the early afternoon after lunch, stop once you've solved the problem of the day, go for a walk before knocking off time, things like that. You want to create a barrier between your real life and work life such that problems don't exit the building with you.

I'm a big believer in reducing productivity if you've been at a place for a while, especially if they ain't giving you a pay raise. Missed deadlines and missed meetings start to create a pattern that they can't take you for granted.

If your company has policies against certain types of communication/interactions then it might be worth taking people to task for violating policy in order to test whether the company is willing to take action to enforce the policy.

That could lead to more responsibility or autonomy for you within the company.

Alternatively the company might start to view you as a troublemaker which would possibly result in a worse workplace environment, however since you already feel miserable I think it is worth the risk. Just don't mention to anyone you work how much you don't care for working there.

You sound to me like you are burning out.

The only cure I'm aware that works reliable is to quit. Alternatively, reading up about work-burnout could be an idea. Meditation, working out, eating and living healthy, and being mindful about your thoughts when you're /not/ at work (for example just, dismissing thoughts and feelings about work as "not useful" or asking them politely to go away) could work.

If you're too deep in, where the burn-out have many similarities with a severe depression, it's probably safest to see a therapist, like some others suggest.

This sounds like a job for my guru Self-help Singh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHxwY3Fz2gU

Seriously, though. I don't know how to stop caring because I've never cared. I only care about things outside of work. My friends, family, myself, our health, our society, the world, my hobbies and interests. Work is a thing I only do because I must in order to survive in this capitalist system that I would prefer to be overthrown. I am so brazen that I have openly expressed this attitude to my employers.

If I had cared and tried harder I probably could have had much more money, but I have plenty. More than most. If the company I work for fails, who cares? Not my responsibility or problem. I work according to what is written in my job description, and that's it. Work is a purely transactional relationship.

There's no need to stop caring. And clearly you do care. What you need to do is stop feeling responsible for things you have no power over. Because that's what's stressing you out.

Change your perspective. Instead of focusing on the things that are wrong that you can't fix, focus on the things that you did fix, or that you have a good chance of fixing in the near future. They may be small things, but at least you can leave the world a little better you found it every day.

" What you need to do is stop feeling responsible for things you have no power over."

I believe that's a wrong mentality, hence that's actually how my Ph.D. advisior does to me and its pretty painful on my end. My advisor does exactly your advice as he just stop caring about me and focus on his projects success. Probably he thinks that "I have no power over my student's success or process so I just stop being responsible about it to be not stress out.".

I think you have power over to help others and communicate the way you feel about your situation right away.

My advice was specifically for mouzogu. I wouldn't necessarily give the same advice to your advisor.

Your advisor has the power to help you, yet chooses not to. That's a different issue.

When I re-read your commit with clear mind, your advicesa are valuable. I am sorry for my previous comment taking it personally.

It isn't for everyone, but try to let the frustration fuel you to change your circumstances.

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.”

― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

Find small joys at work and concentrate on them. Figure out what makes your work environment better, try hard to notice only when other people do something that makes stuff better. Celebrate that!

Warning: "stop caring" is such a broad term, it can mean too much. I have stopped caring in the sense that I know that the outcome I want isn't always the choosen one. That doesn't mean I have stopped caring about fix some stuff.

Don't stop caring as such. Try to get closer with the people you like and I guarantee there is a circle of people like you with a private whatsapp/whatever channel trying to survive. It will instantly turn your life for the better. If there is not such thing yet (hard to believe) start one with just one more person you think can be on your side. Chat, gossip all the day every day. And then - stop caring ))

One of the easiest ways to stop caring is to believe in determinism.

There are options here. You can take a simplistic approach where everything is defined by higher forces - God(s).

Alternatively, you can believe in a highly complex world with ever-increasing entropy, but nevertheless, an organized and predictable world defined by the laws of physics.

In both scenarios, there is no free will, hence no responsibility.

> In both scenarios, there is no free will, hence no responsibility.

Sounds miserable. Hoe does that help, even if true? Having agency and feeling in control is great, and boosts self esteem.

It is miserable. Does it answer the OP's question of how to stop caring?

“not caring” is miserable.

you cared about good grades as a kid

you cared about being smart

now you got to find a way to love yourself regardless of external judgement

deep problem you have

therapy and exercise is the way

Easy, take a note of each and every time management and others treat you like crap and see you as a tool to their objectives.

Then imagine that you disappear one day and think how quickly they will replace you.

Noone will cry for you except a couple of friends and your family. The rest will be like "he was an ok guy, whats for lunch"

> lack of autonomy

> I don't have any autonomy. I'm treated as a resource to be "used"

> quitting or finding another job is NOT an option

This is what Karl Marx called alienation of labor. Workers like yourself feel the way you do. Whereas opposed to this is your employers, and perhaps others of or aligned to their class (perhaps some even here) who have class interests opposed to ypurs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienatio...

Things were wrong before you showed up and they'll be wrong after you leave. The company will chug along, or maybe it won't. Either way, you won't get a cut of the profits, and you'll be laid off if need be.

Do your bit within your allotted work hours, and leave it at that. It's just work.

Completely agree.

In my early twenties I felt super bad about leaving my first ever corporate job for a step up in life.

My boss pulled me aside and said “Dwolb, once you walk out of here, the people here won’t care about you for more than 5 days let alone 5 minutes.”

Totally changed my perspective on work and work relationships.

Actually, people do remember you. Managers will remember you for a decade, and try to hire you after they move to other companies.

Still, it's just work. I remember walking back into the store where I worked 6, and half the staff being fresh faces. The people might remember you, but the company won't.

> Do your bit within your allotted work hours, and leave it at that. It's just work.

That's like telling someone with depression "to just be happy".

Being unsatisfied at work is not like having a mental disorder.

My only advice if you can't stop seeing things as wrong is to broaden your perspective a little bit. Everything is wrong really and most people really do try their best given the circumstances. What seem like stupid decisions are usually just constraints that are poorly communicated.

Have you tried some therapy? Talking to a specialist who will ask the right questions could be a way, like for any other troubling moment in your life. Having such strong emotions is likely originating from some trauma or fear - are you aware of what could that be?

I have the same problem too. I care too much what others think about me, but now I'm starting to give less & less fuck

IMO there's no other way to give less fuck but by staying in the pressure cooker & start growing thicker skin

Try OE, you will care less https://www.wired.com/story/overemployment-work/

It eventually just came naturally to me. Now I finally have a wider goal, so it’s a lot easier to coast knowing that my goal is something other than “get basically the same job but better pay”.

The workout ideas are quite good.

That said-just focus on the things that you are good at. Not caring about a task is a good sign that it could be automated out of your life altogether.

This is a huge thing for me too. I got super burnt out because I care too much.

I hope you get better. I'm still struggling with it, a year after stopping work.

There are downsides to not caring as well, like most things. Decades of cynicism can really do a number on one’s soul.

Why is quitting or finding another job NOT any option?

Can you put effort into questioning that baseline assumption?

Some workplaces make it impossible to do things right, it could be good to search for another job

Get a hobby.

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