The City of London’s oldest document is currently on public display | Hacker News Reader

The City of London’s oldest document is currently on public display

ianvisits.co.uk

116 pointszeristor59 comments

For those that don’t know, the City of London is the ancient Roman core of Metropolitan London.

It has its own separate police force, distinct from the Metropolitan Police that looks after the rest of London.

The City is also governed differently to the rest of England. I’m guessing this document is probably part of the reason why.

It’s the only place in the UK that’s not run on the basis of 1 person 1 vote. Instead it’s run by the City of London Corporation. It’s a city state within a city run as a corporation.

It’s ancient science fiction and weird as fuck. :P

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London

Video by CGP Grey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc

Can't recommend this enough. It captures how truly historically unique this place is.

I watched the Video but besides the "king entering the city ceremony" it didn't show what it makes it unique compared to other city states around the world.

well, arguably there are fewer than 5 city states in the world.

It's a city state without the state as it isn't internationally recognised.

The City of London is part of Greater London http://legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1963/33/section/2 residents & businesses are subject to the same laws & taxes as the rest of England.

To add a little colour to this. The resident population of the city is less than 10k - I’d guess around 3-4k in one development the Barbican Centre - but 500k work there. 10k is about one tenth of the population per Member of Parliament in the U.K.

The City of London Police number just over 800.

So the demographics for a ‘city’ are very odd too.

Its between 8/9k pop. The ward in which i live has fewer than 400 voters

> 10k is about one tenth of the population per Member of Parliament in the U.K.

City of London shares a constituency with Westminster "Two Cities"

I went on an architectural tour of the Barbican Centre a few years ago - it was great, highly recommended (particularly if you're a fan of Brutalism, an under-appreciated style). Anyway, the (excellent) tour guide explained the reason that the development has the 3-4k population mentioned above. Apparently the destruction of housing stock caused by WWII bombing of the City was such that the population no longer justified the appointment of an MP. The Corporation of London weren't willing to lose their representation, and so immediately decided to rebuild precisely enough accommodation to be entitled to an MP - hence the entire Barbican development.

I've no idea whether that's true, but it fits in with the general opaque feudality that is the City.

Also: if faced with a zombie apocalypse, the Barbican would be a very good place to hold out. Good sight lines, few street-level entrances, a surprisingly large network of tunnels and the largest greenhouse outside of Kew... perfect!

I am afraid that story is codswallop. The City of London lost its 'own' seat in the House of Commons before the decision to develop the Barbican as residential was made. (Since the 1950 election the City of London has been part of the Cities of the Cities of London and Westminster parliamentary constituency.)

Thanks for the info; I had my suspicions...

It's not that different. There are 43 police forces in the country, with different specialities, and the City of London force leads (not very well) on financial crime. Businesses do have a vote in local elections, but that was standard across the UK until the Representation of the People Act 1969. The Corporation of London is basically just a local council like any other, albeit with a load of money and a load of meaningless ceremonies (both for historical reasons).

Residents do not have a vote in local elections, is the part you're missing.

they do

(if they are British or commonwealth citizens/etc)

Also not true - if you are lawful resident in the UK you can vote in local elections, just not in the parlimentary elections(source: Polish immigrant who lived here for over a decade without a British citizenship, I have always voted in local elections).

you're under 'etc.'

enumerating all the cases would take me a year as the UK franchise rules are very complicated...

e.g. Polish citizens can but French can't due to lack of reciprocity

(and I think only UK/commonwealth can vote for alderman in the City)

Yes, they do. Source: I vote there

Well on the one hand you're saying it's not that strange, on the other there's the election process for who can become Lord Mayor of the City of London. ;)

In most parts of the country the "Worshipful Society of Apothecaries" plays very little part in local governance...

Here's another video from CGP Grey that explains it rather well:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c

...and when did all this start? No body knows. It's so old there are no records.

> Lord Mayor

Yes, that's what I said 'a load of meaningless ceremonies'. The Lord Mayor has absolutely no role anymore besides the decorative.

In theory the Lord Mayor is elected by 20,000 Liverymen, in practice s/he is chosen by Aldermen from amongst themselves. 27 London Boroughs have a mayor (City of Westminster a Lord mayor) chosen by councillors from amongst themselves. ~~~ CPG Grey is a bit of fun, not a documentary.

I think "corporation" in this context is just a slightly antiquated term for a unit of local government.

It’s not even antiquated depending on where you live.

Mumbai is a corporation.

So is San Francisco: a municipal corporation with a Charter. It’s an overlooked detail, but it’s not just a choice of phrasing. Corporations are just groups of individuals acting as a single entity under law, and incorporated cities in California and most of the States I’ve looked at are no different in that regard.

It is not antiquated, but merely a descriptive that has fallen from common usage. ~ Every local authority in the UK is a corporation and up until c 1970 is was common to see 'Wherever' Corporation buses in British Cities.

Hong Kong’s electoral system is based on this, too.

Hong Kong's is much stranger than the City of London's, from what i know.

The City does actually have one person one vote, with those votes electing local representatives in the much the same way as any other local authority. The quirk is in who the people are. Every resident has a vote. But some people who work in the City but don't live there also get a vote. Businesses are entitled to nominate some number of their employees as voters, according to their size.

This makes a lot of sense to me, given that the City has thousands of residents but hundreds of thousands of workers. Why should the place be run solely for the benefit of the residents?

If anything, this approach should be extended to other areas where there is a non-resident population much larger than the resident population. Give tourists a vote on how the City of Westminster is run!

Whereas in Hong Kong, you have this system of "functional constituencies", where there are seats in the legislative council elected by workers in specific industries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_constituency_(Hong_...

For those that don't know, "William the Conqueror" is also known as "William the Bastard".

This was not the name used by my school teachers and I just wonder how different history lessons would have been had this name been used.

The Normans were Vikings that 'co-opted' the women in Normandy to become 'Normans'. Not the first empire to expand with rape and pillage, but it is interesting how British history accommodates all of this with that tapestry that makes Harold a weak guy with an arrow in his eye.

The City of London is a tax haven. It is the interface between all those British dependencies where taxation is not normal and everything is a 'holding company'.

In the French history he’s just William of Normandy.

Mmmm. In French he is known as "Guillaume le conquérant". Never heard of "William of Normandy".

Page 6 of one of the official exam specifications to be taken at age 16 (GCSEs) specifically mentions William the Bastard.

https://www.ocr.org.uk/Images/335133-the-norman-conquest-106...

I must be getting very old!

Thanks for this. Back in my day the 'b-' word was considered unfit for school books.

I remembered it from about 1999. I don't know if it was a requirement back then, or just something the history teacher chose to include.

> The City of London is a tax haven.

Flat out not true.

This is where you quote an article from Nicholas Shaxson wherein he wrote a book on the subject in which he totally failed to prove his assertion. A company in the city of london is subject to all the same laws as anywhere else in the UK.

Stop lying

Shaxson the Zurich based UFO spotter who failed to comprehend the existence of the 32 London Boroughs that along with the City of London make up Greater London. (He apparently thought the Mayor of London ran everything outside of the City.)

Indeed. particularly good proof at how trivial it is to disperse misinformation. I note depending on the bias of that information it seems more likely to become pervasive.

City of London part of Greater London http://legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1963/33/section/2 residents & businesses subject to same laws & taxes as the rest of England.

Weird that it’s independence is guaranteed in the Magna-freaking Carta.

It is not. Magna Carta merely preserved the privileges the City had at the time. Since the late 19th Century everywhere in England has had its own local government, so that is no longer a privilege.

I used to work in The City, for a time I considered to rent from there at a walking distance from work.

It's truly unique place and I love it but one day I stayed at work till late and noticed that the place turned into a ghost town once the salarymen went home. Then went a few times cycling there in the weekend and I was astonished how empty it was. I actually enjoy solitude but the area is very business oriented and scared me away. Kind of regret not living there for a while, it would have been an experience.

Here are a few photos at the off hours, a bit too empty for a place that is extremely crowded at the day.

https://imgur.com/a/sgo7Yxe

edit: I particularly like this panorama image : https://imgur.com/a/yfh5hXN

At rush hour that location is so crowded that you can't walk without bumping into people but on the weekends you barely see people, even the tourists are not plenty despite being on a nice summer day.

I think the tourists instinctively feel that this place is not a place of honor.

"The City of London is the only part of Britain over which parliament has no authority."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/31/corpor...

https://www.economist.com/britain/2001/08/02/the-mayors-new-...

https://www.ft.com/content/41dba03e-5d29-11e5-9846-de406ccb3...

that statement is completely false

(if you want accuracy stay away from George Monbiot articles)

That's one of the reasons why the start of 28 days later was filmed there, near Bank. A familiar scene which often has no one there at the weekend mornings. I worked there around that time in the late 90s. Spent a lot of time at Spitalfields, Brick Lane, St Paul's, Old Street. Was great when young and the company was buying beer.

Yeah, even regular well known grocery stores and pubs are shut on a Saturday afternoon. It's quite eerie seeing almost everything closed.

There was one bonus - there is a shopping mall with lots of stores which stays open during the weekend, and is really quiet - I used to go there for last minute Christmas shopping at the weekend. When the rest of the country's shops would be packed, this entire mall was still very quiet, and open! I think it was near Cannon Street (One New Change, maybe?)

In general you're absolutely right but there are some parts of the City where there is some activity over the weekend. For example, the area around St Paul's and Cheapside usually have quite a few shops open and it's quite a pleasant place for a walk on a Sunday (and e.g. the Daunt's bookshop on Cheapside is very good and open both Sat and Sun).

It's interesting that it's quite the opposite just over the river (200m walk say) where places like Tate Modern and around London Bridge are usually very busy indeed over the weekend.

You forgot to mention the most important part - all the ancient laws that legalize tax evasion and money laundering.

Those don't exist. What's the point in just making things up?

They exist in the same way sovereign citizens exist. Through a naive understanding of law, history and politics.

There is some basis if you squint at it from an angle and try to believe enough!

I liken it to a kind of flat earth theory. To most people the earth appears flat to them, just as corporations appear impersonal and corrupt.

Yeah, I love those little quirky details about London... A few trivia I find funny:

Did you know that - technically - "London" does not exist? There is Greater London, which is not a city - it's either a county (when it includes the City of London) or a ceremonial county (when it doesn't). There is also the City of London, which is (as detailed in other comments) a completely separate entity and includes just a tiny bit of what is generally referred to as "London".

Another one: Quickly, what is the capital city of England? It doesn't have it, as England doesn't have its own parliament nor government, being ruled directly by those of the United Kingdom.

OK then - what is the capital city of the United Kingdom, especially if London does not exist? Well, it's the city where the Parliament and most of the government offices are located, and that is City of Westminster. While technically part of the Greater London county, it is a city in its own right.

Every local authority in the UK is a corporation. ~ The City of London Corporation run by committees of elected members meeting in public with agendas & minutes online, as per the Local Government Act 1972.

From the King that brought you the Harrying of the North comes a contract to treat London nice…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

Although I guess they didn’t agree.

Also I’ve never heard of a Portreeve before, I’m guessing they’re a Shirereeve for a port.

Portreeve:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portreeve

Not the last time we were sold out by London.

I wonder how much of a concept or identity England/English was to any given local compared to their local loyalties, regional lords and etc.

land, language, culture -- bonds that apply from local to city-state .. once it scales up then law, economic roles .. offhand

> From the King that brought you the Harrying of the North comes a contract to treat London nice…

Your own link points out that he tried paying the northerners off first.

Wait, doesn't this mean that residents of the City of London ought to be exempt from inheritance taxes?

I wonder if Jacob Rees-Mogg remembers this?

Bread rolls are quite fancy though

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