Looped Square Or ⌘
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Never thought about over-use of the logo, but Jobs did have a good point. I always felt that Windows key on keyboards felt a bit ugly and out of place.
are you one of those weirdos who use a mouse?
Also bring back keyboards with external media keys that don't require holding Fn to either change volume and tracks, or press F# key shortcuts. Also please give me an EC firmware which maps top-row keys to media keys when pressed alone (for convenience), and to F# keys when either Fn or any other modifier keys are held (so you don't need to add an extra key to complex modifier chords relative to on desktops).
I like Apple using Alt/Option/Meta as "alternative option"
I don't like Apple applications using Super/Windows/Looped Square for their own shortcuts.
On my Linux workstation I standardise to:
- Super for all window operations. Quit, resize, move to workspace.
- Super+alt for system wide action: lock, suspend, reboot.
- Hyper (super+ctrl+alt+shift because it's easily accessible on my keyboard) for global shortcuts such as mute microphone.
And Ctrl and Alt are reserved for applications themselves. I like Emacs approach: Ctrl is (mostly) the first layer, and Alt/Meta tends to work on semantic blocks: words, lines, sentences, etc. Shift often means Option, i.e. alternative to the base shortcut.
Complex chords are extremely painful when done one handed because the other meta keys are tiny and crammed all together. On Windows keyboards, `fn` either doesn't exist or is in the middle (creating ctrl-fn-win-alt), making for tons of comfortable space for one-handed chorded keys.
6x+ is too much honor for a key that produces blanks and allocates 20% of fingers, also useful ones. More than half of my spacebar area has no wear signs if you look closely.
I strongly disagree. The distinction between OS and applications is arbitrary, it does not make sense to separate along this line. And a consistent command key is great, particularly compared to the mess we have on Windows. The fact that this leaves control free for command-line applications is a great bonus as well.
Not that I believe Apple intended this, but I think of the command key as meta.
https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/367858/does-macos-...
Window+Right --> move this window to the right of the display, to the second monitor if repeated
Win + left/right/up/down to move around windows
Win + tab for an overview of all windows and desktops
The Gnome and friends defaults puts Linux in 2nd place IMO. However, like nearly everything Linux, if you're willing to put in a little bit of effort and/or go down more esoteric routes (i3 is clearly the most efficient I've ever been...the problem is that I'm forced to use macOS and Windows as well, and switching from i3 to the others is really difficult) it can easily be the best.
macOS seems the weakest. There are utilities that can equal functionality from the other OSes, but even then it feels unnatural (a lot of animations in nearly everything doesn't help)
Aside from the Win+Arrow combinations, which are probably among the most useful, other ones that I use daily are Win+. to bring up emoji keyboard, Win+V to bring up clipboard history, Win+T to navigate the quicklaunch/taskbar apps and (less frequently) Win+Plus and Win+Minus to zoom the display. There are some new settings shortcuts too like Win+A for mini-settings (like Android swipe from top), Win+I for proper settings and Win+P for projector settings.
Plus there are all the old keypresses that have been around forever like Win+R run, Win+L lock workstation, Win+M minimize everything, Win+D for show desktop toggle, Win+S for search (used to be Win+F/find), Win+E explore... I think nowadays I use Windows button as much as I do Control and Shift.
Alt is less useful since applications stopped having menus, but AltGr is great for international input. I suppose Win+Space is important to know too, if you switch keyboards a lot (I do).
Absurdly out of place when using different OS.
EDIT: I'm being downvoted and I'm note sure why, perhaps a lot of the newer folks aren't aware of what it used to look like; it was very clearly "Windows the operating system": https://i.redd.it/fnligi5oa0h51.jpg
This is yet another example. I see no wrong in this comment. I would like that HN changes something about it.
> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
OP's comment hasn't been meaningfully downvoted; it's still black text. Yours has, though.
I do wonder why my laptop which I bought with Linux pre-installed has another vendors operating system logo as a standard key on an otherwise vendor neutral keyboard.
I wonder why IBM, who created many keys that I commonly use on my keyboard does not have their logo anywhere.
The "fridge" analogy was because the universal sign for "liquid" is not "Pepsi".
But imagine that the keyboard had other vendor logos, the "B" is the Broadcom logo, because frankly it's almost assured that there is Broadcom tech in there. Intel puts an "intel inside" logo for turning on numlock since they're the owners of the patent.
Just feels surreal, silly, and very out of place.
Unless of course you say "all non-Apple personal computers are exclusively Windows PCs" which feels a bit grotesque to cede control in such a way. Even when Intel was extremely dominant in CPU manufacture did we allow them to put their logo into standards in this way. (thunderbolt, USB et al.)
You'll say "ah, but they invented a new key and it was useful so we kept it" except;
1) no: while they popularised a "Windows Natural Keyboard" layout with this key in 1994, Super and Meta keys predate them by about 10 and 20 years respectively; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_key_(keyboard_button) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key
2) creating something useful doesn't grant you license to advertise with it forever, even if it had been original.
The Windows keyboard is a 27+ year old design made for Windows PCs. "IBM PC" is like talking about Greek antiquity and has no relevance.
Your Linux laptop came with a Winkey because the manufacturer was lazy. Maybe tell them to try harder?
> Unless of course you say "all non-Apple personal computers are exclusively Windows PCs" which feels a bit grotesque to cede control in such a way.
Windows sits at 87% market share. This is "I use Bing to Google things" levels of silliness.
I say this as an exclusive Linux user of 20+ years, btw.
Only in 1 Market Segment; and in 1994 they didn't even have that.
So what's your point exactly?
Windows key shortcuts are all (I think) operating system shortcuts. Super+R, Super+X, Super+right arrow.
Command is more analogous to alt or control.
- windows/linux win/super key = apple ctrl key, OS level commands
- windows/linux ctrl = apple cmd key, primary application level commands
- windows/linux alt = apple option, secondary application level commands
- shift modifiers are almost always interoperational
I haven’t used Windows 11 yet, but the Windows key has become much more associated with premier Windows features beyond initially the start menu. Windows+G opens the integrated gaming experience (if you’ve enabled it, I believe) and even Windows+tab gives you a similar, but more modern experience over alt+tab. Windows+v gives you an expanded clipboard view and I think this may be where the line begins to blur a bit, but it’s still the improved Windows version of the paste command that is essentially the same across most OSes.
It has its utilitarian uses such as window management with Windows+arrow key, but that of course is an OS level action.
Yeah that's because the Windows key was only introduced with Windows 95, which means a) ctrl- and alt- shortcuts were already convention; and b) most keyboards didn't even have a Windows key! If you were writing an application at the time, it would have been a gamble whether end users could even access your shortcuts. So of course devs stayed with ctrl and alt.
https://www.macworld.com/article/224807/think-retro-open-app...
I actually find those Apple bumper stickers to be logo over-use. Especially when a car has more than one.
My keyboard doesn't have any key for the symbol ⌥ or ⌘, either. Or do you mean that all the other modifier keys on Mac-branded keyboards are labelled with their symbols, whereas shift isn't?
Do they? I thought all Apple-branded keyboards used the symbols (except, as bin_bash points out (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33036804), for shift).
> Plus make common keyboard shortcuts require multiple modifier keys.
You can also change keyboard shortcuts system-wide. It's not an argument against good defaults, but it does allow you to relieve the pain.
0: https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Apple_Extended_II_Salmon_U...
At some point, they also required ctrl to be pressed along side reset to prevent it from being accidentally triggered (it was right next to the return key). Reset on its own terminated the currently running program (as opposed to ctrl-c which stopped a BASIC program but you could resume the program—this was an early means of debugging since you could do things like PRINT A$ to see the value of A$ at the time that you stopped the program or even alter program variables before resuming).
There was one occasion when someone at my high school was experiencing great frustration because every time he did ctrl-reset, the computer rebooted. It turned out that a book was sitting on top of the paddles depressing the button.
] CALL -151
* 3D0G
] PR#6The original Mac keyboards (serial, with the telephone handset connector) did not have the open apple symbol. I don't recall any Mac applications making reference to the open Apple key, it was always "Command Key." From the Mac side, "open apple" was a colloquialism.
EDIT: now that I follow the link I see this information is in the first line. Oh well!
I remember Linux advocates being very irritated by the sudden introduction of that key. If you got a PC in 1996, no windows logo on the keyboard. By 1998 they all had it.
You can see the Castle and its surrounding moat to the west.
I'm pretty sure that it was another class at the same time where I picked up 'bang' for 'exclamation point'. Looking back, I'm surprised that both had eluded me for so long.
* (I’m not normally proud of things I didn’t contribute to)
I think it's much better placed since you can reach it with your thumb and don't have to rotate your wrist when using it as opposed to ctrl, so when typing macs you might have less strain on your hands.
I remap capslock to ctrl on my Macs for Emacs use, which also helps with "emacs pinky syndrome".
Ctrl on the far left of the keyboard (where FN is on apple keyboards) is far more ergonomically laid out, doesn't require a radical twist of the fingers, and also allows your fingers to remain in home-row with thumb on space.
Personally I think ALL modifier keys should be on the far left/right of a keyboard where they can all be accessed by a pinky finger. It is faster, doesn't require bone crossing, and allows you to remain in a typing position. Combinations of multiple modifiers should be very rare, if it isn't someone needs to go back to UI/UX school. (I blame Emacs for that!)
I don't find this true at all, and as far as I can tell I have normal-sized hands.
How do you rest your fingers on the keyboard? When I have my eight fingers on the home keys, I can hit ⌘-C by bending my index finger in isolation. To hit ⌘-V, I have to rotate my entire left hand very slightly to the right while also bending my index finger. However, I've never once thought consciously about how to perform this action before today, despite having hit ⌘-V millions of times - so it's never struck me as a difficult or uncomfortable maneuver.
Standard home-row position. Having to scoot my thumb over to square-loop is very uncomfortable because it naturally rests on the spacebar.
It might be that I've been programming for close to 40 years and have grown accustomed to CTRL being an involuntary gesture for the pinky. Just like escape (from using vi for 30+ years).
It could be that people born using loop-* are used to it, plus Apple pushing ctrl into a weird place on its keyboards just means that your never had the opportunity to experience the ergonomically superior CTRL-C/V from the "old days" of keyboards before modifier madness took over. TBH emacs CTRL-ALT bothered me as well, and I had similar debates on Usenet. :) Or you are young and flexible. :)
I use the usual Caps Lock position as my "Control" key, which is faster and more ergonomic than any of the traditional modifier positions, but the second place is easily the Spacebar-adjacent modifier key (I use it as my Super key, for window manager controls like workspace switching and application launcher). I have Alt bound to the bottom-left position where Control usually is. Alt doesn't get used nearly as much, and that's the third-best spot. The spot in between the two bottom-row modifiers is the least accessible by far (hard to hit accurately with the pinky, out of reach of the thumb). 101-key keyboards don't have it at all. I've recently started using it as push-to-talk, which works fine since it's not used for anything else and you don't have to chord it with anything.
I like the ⌘ glyph but outside the United States, keyboards don’t have the “command” name on the key. I find it hard to describe to my parents when doing support over the phone.
It was much easier when this key also featured the outline of the Apple logo , I could describe it as the key with the Apple on it next to the space bar.
I envy my Northern European neighbors that actually have name for the ⌘ symbol, or in Northern America where you can simply say the “command” key because that’s written on it.
https://www.kreativekorp.com/ucsur/charts/PDF/UF8D0.pdf
I honestly cannot fathom why HN filters most weird Unicode characters but allows private use code points.
Likewise with ⌥ (option) and ^ (control).
All my German keyboards have it.
The linked to article is about Apple's use of that symbol for the "command"-key on their keyboards.
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...
That’s incorrect. The original Macintosh didn’t even _have_ a control key.
Chicago Control-Q prints propeller or clover symbol
Date Written: 7/4/90
Last reviewed: 6/14/93
How do I get the character that represents the clover used for Command-key equivalents in documents and in menus?
___
This key is documented in the Apple Style Guide, which is available on the latest Developer CD Series disc as well as from APDA. One little feature of Key Caps which is not widely known is the Control key (not the Command or Option keys). Pressing the Control key in Chicago shows that Control-Q in Chicago maps to the propeller symbol for which you search. Control-Q generates the character code 17; the standard Macintosh character set (see Inside Macintosh Volume VI, page 12-5) specifies this symbol for it.
In a way I can't put into words, I've always liked that key on the Macintosh.
I'd expect they might do a crossover in the middle to do turns to both sides (left wing down, right wing down); but perhaps flyers prefer one side for turns.
If the thermal is wide enough, any pattern could do. If it's too narrow, any attempt at flying a circle inside of it will become an exercise of keeping maybe just the tip of one wing inside the thermal.
[0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Borgholm+Castle/@56.870441...
Also, are standard keyboard still recognized as apple keyboards if you plug them on a mac ?
The only oddity is the Option and Command keys are swapped. They map to Alt and Windows, but should be Windows and Alt.
Trivial to fix it in the keyboard Pref Pane. Otherwise you’re 100% golden.
What for is that frustration of us who work on different platforms?
It’s really a shame she isn’t significantly better known. She made a huge impact on computers as we know them today.
Actually is snail another word from Danish that English adopted?
Update: not even close, not on your Nellie even.
“In Danish, it is snabel-a ('elephant's trunk A').”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_sign
Apologies I seem to find rabbit holes within rabbit holes, Not on your Nellie being Cockney rhyming slang, just tied into Nellie the Elephant:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=not%20on%20y...
Likely due to common roots rather than transplant. You'll find a similar word in the other Germanic languages.
Snabel-a in Danish is correct, you'll hear it all the time when there's an email address.