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Comment by phpthrowaway99 | Hacker News Reader

How does a union welder get saddled with debt trying to stay afloat during covid? What was the thing he was taking on debt for to keep afloat? What does keeping something afloat even mean? He took on new debt to make payments on his old debt?

I say this as someone that knows two pipeline welders in Wyoming. They were living it up with their time off. Who do you think bought all those side by sides in 2020 and 2021. You couldn't find one to buy no matter how far you were willing to drive. Do you think it was the office worker crowd buying $30k go-karts?

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The way his job works is that he bids for jobs, gets accepted then go's out to wherever that job is. Usually spending 3-6 months out at a time, then going home and bidding for other jobs. Thing is, according to him, there weren't any jobs during covid and he isn't known for being a saver. That is def on him, but he says he is still having trouble getting a pipeline job that his union allows. Personally, I know next to nothing about the pipeline welder industry outside of what he told me, as I am a programmer. I am going off his word which may/may not be accurate

If he's bidding on jobs, he's not exactly a union welder. He's a small business owner and in that case I agree things can definitely go south for various reasons.

I think bidding in this case means he puts his name down for jobs that are sent to the union hiring hall- and the jobs are allocated on the basis of seniority. Fewer jobs impacts those lower on the seniority list.

The word bidding is very well understood and used in the construction industry. I wouldn't assume the welder misused one of the most common words in the industry to help make a point here.

He goes to the Ford dealership and says he wants a truck. The salesman says, "How much are you looking to spend a month?" He says 800 dollars because that's the amount he has left over after his bills. He then owns an 800/month truck. Repeat every three years throughout life.

I have seen so many people fall victim to these tactics. It's never "what can you afford?" but "tell me what you want and we'll work something out". And next thing you know a 22 year old with zero financial or life knowledge is stuck with a 8 year 33% APR loan for shitty used truck that will need thousands in repairs every year.

As shitty as this is I don't think it's fair to label the individual a victim. A contract is a contract, and personal responsibility is a requirement in a free-ish society.

I guess he can be viewed as a victim of his parents, and society in general (schooling system etc.), who never taught him about handling finances. How can a person know something if they were never taught it?

It really doesn't take a lesson in finances to understand "money is important to have. I get money from work, which is not a sure thing. I should keep some money in reserves for when I don't have an income since jobs come and go".

Immigrants from 3rd world countries with zero formal education, zero real family experience with building wealth, save money like crazy in the US.

> Immigrants from 3rd world countries with zero formal education, zero real family experience with building wealth, save money like crazy in the US.

There's "building wealth" and there's just responsible money handling. Normal families handle money in responsible manner (have savings, avoid debt etc.) and such behaviors are passed to children. Pathological families can be doing all kinds of crazy things with their money - take up expensive debt for frivolous reasons, spend the whole salary up front and go hungry until the next one arrives, lose houses over small things (e.g. a guy in my family traded a large apartment for a much smaller one, a bottle of vodka and a dog) etc. Their lives is chaos, and that includes the financial aspect of it. A child in such conditions really can have no idea that it's not a normal way to handle money, and that it can be done much better.

People are way more stupid than you imagine, half of them are paying for addictive drugs that slowly kill them.

I feel like we've been infantilising people too much lately. There has never been better, easier, and more accessible access to knowledge than today. If this person wanted to learn about how loans work, they could have. They don't want to. That's on them. Or maybe they know exactly how loans work and just really want an expensive truck. That happens plenty. They're not victims. They just have different values and preferences.

Because literally all the knowledge in the world is in your pocket.

So everyone is a victim, I don't subscribe to that loose definition.

I recently posted here that I sold cars for 10 years. I can not even imagine asking someone "what can you afford?" It sounds half condescending and half way too personal/inappropriate.

People come to the dealership and ask for certain cars. Sometimes they do ask about payment ranges, and so you tell them. If they say "oh that's more than I thought, I was trying to keep it under $500 a month. Is that possible?" I tell them if it's possible via lease with $4k down or maybe on a 72 month loan. They decide. What else am I supposed to do? Go full Dave Ramsey on them and figure out if they can really afford $500 a month?

The FEW times I tried to save someone from buying an expensive used car I just KNEW would eat them alive in repairs, it was always taken very poorly, and that's with me doing it pretty tactfully in my opinion.

People that are the type to make bad financial decisions (in our opinions let's say) don't exactly take kindly to lowly 'car salesmen' implying they can't really afford something.

Business executives, sports stars and other rich and successful people go broke and deep into debt all the time. The reason is the same whether you are a plumber or CEO – living beyond your means and not saving.

For sure people go broke from over spending and going into debt. But this is a story of someone going into debt trying to stay afloat during a stay at home order apparently. Since the OP, it has come to light that he was more of a small business owner bidding on jobs prior to covid, which makes a lot more sense how a sudden drop in available work could wipe you out.

Debt is one of those "gradually, then suddenly" things.

Saving money is also that way as well.

When does the suddenly start? Hasn't for me.

Dividends and Distributions

Takes about 15 years of consistent saving and investing. Then all of a sudden you're wealthy. But as you're saving and investing you still don't have a wild standard of living.

"Fifteen percent of your household income is going into retirement," Ramsey said. "That will make the typical family a millionaire in 14 years." https://www.today.com/money/dave-ramsey-how-retire-early-pay...

Household income of 100,000 (higher than typical) gives 15K per year, or 1250 a month. 8% interest gets you to $376,000 after 14 years. No where near millionaire status. And this is assuming a tax differed investment path such as 401(k), and you still owe taxes out of that when you withdraw (assume 20% for fed/state, if you don't draw it out all at once, gives you around $300k).

Of course, add another decade and you are at millionaire status. Or don't contribute any additional funds, and wait 12 years, and you hit millionaire.

Yeah the numbers there don't add up as their savings plan changes once people pay off their mortgage, have a rainy day fund and have the kids education fund ready.They tell people to max out savings at that point. So it's starts out at 15% but ends up being much higher.

I've been saving 20-25% for 10 years. I'm nowhere close to that sort of money.

Same here, a lot of this financial advice is given through rose colored glasses of people getting windfalls from tech stock options in past decade.

Based on the numbers for average account balances and stuff, it seems like retirement is a luxury for the current generations. Evens the social support systems are being underfunded, which is likely to lead to inflation or economic downturn as the taxes increase to cover them.

Even as someone who is better off than others my age, it seems like retirement will be a long way off and tight. I was interested and looked up how I stacked up and it turns out I'm around top 25% for income by age and about top 1% (that's alarming) for savings. If it's shakey for me, how is anyone else going to make it? Property values and taxes aew sky high. So is medical care. Other stuff like groceries or parts/labor for home repair are rising.

So yeah, it does not look good in my eyes.

https://dqydj.com/retirement-savings-by-age/

https://cdn.dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/income-by-a...

I don't understand. If your income is that high and you're saving 25% after 30 years you should have more than enough to retire?

What rate are you modeling your investment returns at?

For real my ex is a union welder and she made stupid money during the pandemic. Construction is considered essential and she got mad overtime with all the people out sick. They basically took zero safety precautions and she gave me the pleasure of being one of the first 100 people to catch covid in my city of ~200,000 people.

But think of all the money she made.

I’m going to guess rent and living expenses, like for food.

Yes, I often hear about dudes making $200k in 8 months of work, living in inexpensive areas of the country, having trouble buying food.

This was a bunch of offshore workers.

Make 14k in two weeks while offshore, not have a dime to their name 2 weeks later when they're going back out.

That's a cool stereotype to talk about, but for every broke guy that makes $200k living in Wyoming, I know more that own 10 acres, a nice house, a 3000 sq ft metal building next to it, $10k+ in guns and ammo, several paid off older vehicles, and one nice one with a payment for the wife and maybe himself. That is much more common that someone that makes great money but just CANT curb his spending.

How many offshore workers did you work with? I worked with plenty and there were lots of guys who lived modestly and saved a ton.

But there were plenty of guys making 200k living paycheck to paycheck.

I didn't work with any offshore people. I knew a directional driller very well and visited him several times, and from there met a few welders as well while we worked on helping them install off-road suspensions onto their trucks. All had nice houses and sounded like they didn't have a care in the world. Very different from my silicon valley friends complaining about their high rent and housing costs.

No matter how inexpensive an area is today, how long do you think that will last when it suddenly has more $200k temp workers than longtime residents?

Those workers often have to pay out the nose just to eat ramen in plywood closets, the money doesn't go much farther than it would in a dense city.

Most guys I know had their housing provided on site. They then traveled home between jobs. Or others had RV trailers with them so they didn't have to go home, if they even had a home at that time.

But enough to eliminate the possibility of retirement? How much was he eating?

And how on earth was he planning to fund the rest of his retirement / very long covid with his seemingly outlandish cost of living?

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