Curious - how much would charging costs have to increase for the cost of driving an EV to match that of an ICE car?
We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling.
I also would never buy a car that keeps up a constant network connection to its manufacturer, so that's a requirement I'd be looking for as well.
Those exist, just buy yourself an e-Up/Citigo EV/Mii Electric, it's very cheap, it's very basic, has 160 miles range, it even comes with a normal analogue cluster. Or another cheap choice is an MG ZS EV or EV5 - both fantastic cars, both pretty basic without a whole lot of tech.
But basic?
https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-techn...
> The Mii doesn’t offer a built-in touchscreen – not even as an option. Instead, it comes fitted with a smartphone dock located on top of the dash. While it may appear low-tech compared to its rivals, it does the job by allowing the driver to link their phone to the car via two apps: Mii Drive and SEAT Connect. The latter provides remote access and management of the vehicle, so drivers can review driving data, parking position, the vehicle’s status, including doors and lights, manage the charging process via the e-Manager and the ability to control air-conditioning remotely from the app.
How to repair this at home if it breaks?
Can I make sure that my car does not send any data to the manufacturer?
Yes, you can make sure the car doesn't communicate with the VW servers - either through the option in the menus, or if you don't trust that just pull out the SIM card below the dash.
>>How to repair this at home if it breaks?
If what breaks?
>>but still 10x of the cheap used ICEV they are competing with
I'm so confused why you say that a brand new EV is competing with a decade old petrol car(because only those will be 10x cheaper)? Like.....when I was car shopping it hasn't even crossed my mind to look at cars that old. I want a warranty and I want a very basic EV car - a decade old petrol car fulfils neither requirement.
There are cars that you can fix at home with a hammer, but this is getting rare, unfortunately.
> I'm so confused why you say that a brand new EV is competing with a decade old petrol car
If people want to buy the cheapest vehicle, then they are limited to ICEV, because the cheapest EV is much more expensive.
I mean, sure, but then the argument is that this car literally has a battery, EV motor, one ECU, cabling for the brakes and the AC, and....that's about it? Yes you won't open the battery or the motor in your driveway, but other parts are no more complicated than in a normal car, and there's very very very few of them. I know some people who have already put 100kkm on these cars and the only thing they had to change was tyres - even the brakes don't wear out at all because you just use regenerative breaking.
>>If people want to buy the cheapest vehicle, then they are limited to ICEV, because the cheapest EV is much more expensive.
Yes, but why were you comparing a brand new EV to a decade old petrol car?
>>There are cars that you can fix at home with a hammer
I just want to add to this - I think maybe that is true, but that must be 0.00001% of drivers who have that ability, if not less. I used to have a Fiat Cinquecento, you couldn't imagine a simpler car(mechanically), it didn't really have electric anything on it other than lights, and I still wouldn't have any clue how to fix an engine issue for instance. I could replace the brakes or suspension elements myself, but I can do that in the e-Up too.
If you’re looking at the cheapest end of the spectrum, try looking at golf carts or importing something from China. $4,000 gets you quite the cart, well within the price range of a used, old ICE vehicle. And likely competitive too - my sister’s last car was an old (ICE) beater and couldn’t go fast enough for the freeway.
The only thing we really need is less ICEVs
I am writing from Berlin. We enjoy one of the best public transport networks in the world, but it is still not affordable enough for many and there are still good reasons to own a car in Berlin.
EVs for everyone doesn't work, and ICEVs even less so.
People who really need it for their life style will either have to change their life style and habits or pay enough for it.
And with respect to the economy: supply and demand will solve it
What I meant to express was that the GP was making a fallacious argument themselves by claiming that mine was fallacious when it is not.
Take personal transportation out of the equation without sufficient replacement and the economy (and quality of life, as well as social peace) will take a massive hit, because so many people rely on it for their needs.
Transitions to better models are great if they are planned and executed well. Suddenly pricing people out of their lifes, because required planning and investment 20 years ago was avoided is not a great way to proceed if you value social peace.
What about better urban design so less transit of any kind is necessary?
I'm in Sweden, and the cheapest EVs are often more expensive than fully kitted-out ICE versions of the same cars. Even an ardent proponent of EVs will think twice before buying an EV (unless they are rich and live in the city center)
E.g. producing a new BEV can have a worse impact than driving an ICEV a little bit longer.
However, long-term, it is the task of governmental bodies to make the cost using ICEVs reflect the real cost to society, making it probably even less affordable.
And no, "affordable public transportation" doesn't solve the problem. I live in Sweden where you have busses going to even the most remote of places. The farther you are from a big city center, the more yo need a car. And unlike the US being far from a city doesn't mean you live in a big house where you can put your own charging station etc.
> I live in Sweden where you have busses going to even the most remote of places.
Sounds good. I live in Germany where you don't have that, I still don't need a car, even though I use one once in a while because it's so cheap.
> The farther you are from a big city center, the more yo need a car.
So what? Doesn't mean you need a car at the end of the day, let alone own a car, especially when you're not living in the US. It only means cars are more helpful than at the city centre. The same probably holds for your own helicopter
> So what? Doesn't mean you need a car at the end of the day, let alone own a car.
And your proposal is what exactly?
BTW car sharing and carpools have been a thing for a while, including EVs. They are 2x or 3x more expensive than owning a car. And also not available as soon as you move about 10-10 kilometers away from the city center.
I live in a suburb with a population of 60k people, 11 km from the city center. There 20-ish charging outlets (3.7 kW and 11 kW) mostly in paid parking lots (2 EUR per hour after second hour of parking). There are two car pools offering a total of 10 cars at completely ridiculous prices (Volvo's M, I'm looking at you: >25 EUR just to start the car, 30 EUR for 10km purely electric, 27 EUR for 10 km ICE).
> It only means cars are more helpful than at the city centre.
Exactly. They are more helpful, and your proposal is to make them unaffordable for people who need them
> The same probably holds for your own helicopter
Reductio ad absurdum isn't nearly as strong of an argument as you think it is.
You can't pretend that the cost of EVs (both the cars and the infrastructure needed for them) isn't an issue just because you say "ah, they don't need it all the time" or "yeah, but steelman argument is public infrastructure". This just pushes reckoning with reality farther away, possibly beyond the point where it can be solvable.
That is just 1p less per mile for a petrol car, based on someone driving at an average of 40 miles to the gallon, the motoring group said.
The cost per mile for charging electric vehicles at home is around 9p per mile for the average-sized car. The BBC has been told most EV drivers charge at home overnight."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63029226
64p per kWh vs £1.90 per litre looks like parity between the two ~3 kWh ~= 1 litre petrol a fair estimate (~11 kWh ~= 1 us gallon)? Obviously your mileage may vary.
Otherwise the next best option is to charge the car at the place they work if they commute by car and their employer offers that.
Other options are to include charging into your mental overhead and use options whenever you are out shopping (larger supermarkets with parking often have charging options), training (parking next to football fields might have charging), use public charging spots but that can be time consuming when your next one is further away.
Source: We own an electric car and charge at home but we recently considered moving to a place without home charging and had to figure out how we would deal with that.
Is it though? Paris, London, Berlin, Amsterdam, Madrid, Rome… dominated by 3-5 story mixed-use, with some special area for skyscrapers, and farmland near to the edge of the city. (Or, near by American standards)
“Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way”
One can reasonably quibble about other costs but what surprised me is that it's within an order of magnitude.
We're on the same plan as you are, and last week we found that charging it at the office (which used to be significantly more expensive than at home) is now 2x cheaper that it is from our garage, so that's where we're going to all our charging from now on. Electricity prices for off-peak usage going from 5¢/kWh to 25¢/kWh at home really hurts. I get free charging at work, but alas I bike so the car gets charged at the other office…
Fuel cost equivalent BEV consumption (expressed in fuel per distance, e.g. l/100km) is equal to [C_e * P_e] / P_f = C_e * [P_e / P_f]; where C_e = BEV electricity consumption; P_e = Price of electricity; P_f = Price of fuel.
With C_e = 20 kWh/100km; you need [P_e / P_f] ~= 0,35 to break even. With fuel prices in the [1.7 -- 1.9] range you need electricity prices in [0.59 -- 0.67] range.
Sibling comments list UK prices to be P_e = 0.65; P_f = 1.9; yielding equivalent consumption is 6.8 l/100km. (34.5 mpg according to google)
In my country prices are roughly P_e = 0.59; P_f = [1.65 -- 1.75] giving equivalent consumption of roughly [7.15 -- 6.75].
BEV consumption is a bitch for comparison. Your trip computer displays battery-to-controller consumption, which is what you pay at public charger, but when charging at home you pay for grid consumption which includes charging losses.
So the answer depends on where and when you charge.
Everyone I personally know uses public charging. Currently the way people are going is to know which car parks and shops still have free charging and to use those but they all know it doesn't work in the long run.
The main way for the energy costs to be cheaper for EV drivers relies on charging at home or at work where it may be subsidized/free.
Using Anecdata from the United States
The energy or fuel cost of driving an EV versus an ICE car varies primarily based on the following factors: - Where and When the EV is being charged (e.g. at Home versus at a Public Charging Station) - Cost of Electricity in the Region - Cost of Gasoline in the Region
Let's use the state of California for an example and calculate the general fuel/energy cost per mile driven.
Where and When: Some residential power customers are on time-of-use billing plans which typically charge premium rates during peak hours (daytime-to-early evening, and substantially cheaper rates during off-peak hours. Pricing can also go up by usage tiers. Some EV drivers are able to charge exclusively at home, and/or have subsidized charging at work. It's almost always more economical for the EV driver to charge at home/work, however home/office chargers will typically be limited to not-"fast" charging speeds (L1 or L2 charging).
The average residential electricity rate in California is ~$0.30/kWh.
Many Public EV charging stations offer "fast" (L3) charging speeds and are convenient or necessary to use for some EV drivers. Many California public EV charging stations also now have variable pricing based on time of day and their location. The rates can vary from ~$0.30-$0.50+/kWh at EVgo stations or Tesla Superchargers, as examples.
Typical EV efficiencies I've seen are around 3.5-4.0 miles driven per kWh consumed. Assuming the upper end of 4.0 mi/kWh, the energy cost per mile driven is around $0.08/mi at the low end, and $0.13+/mi at the upper end with the above energy prices.
If we assume an ICE or hybrid vehicle with average fuel economy of 35mi/gallon, and gasoline costs typically range from $4.50-$5.50/gallon, the fuel cost per mile driven is around $0.13/mi at the low end and $0.16+/mi at the higher end.
For fun, if we took a typical Toyota Prius from the last 10+ years, with average fuel economy of 50mi/gallon, the fuel cost per mile driven is around $0.09/mi at the low end and $0.11+/mi at the higher end.
The prices for Public EV charging fluctuate, as do the prices for gasoline.
Generally, if someone is driving an EV and primarily relying on public "fast" charging, their energy cost per mile driven is really not that different from the ICE car examples, and higher than the average Prius driver.
(I have an EV and ICE vehicles)
For the absolute vast majority of the world, even in the richest countries, EVs are a pipe dream, and will take another decade to be even remotely viable on scale.