Association between meatless diet and depressive episodes | Hacker News Reader

Association between meatless diet and depressive episodes

doi.org

30 pointsjohntfella14 comments

This is an interesting association and I am glad the authors took care to mention that more studies are needed to understand the cause of association. It feels like one where many people may want to infer causality - that the lack of meat causes depression but I would be curious as to the actual cause. My own guess as someone who doesn't eat meat is that if someone pays attention to things like animal rights or health or whatever is motivating their decision to avoid meat, they are also likely paying attention to the other issues in our world which, quite frankly, can be depressing.

Have to find the papers, but I know there's a connection between creatine and depression. As creatine would only be found in red meat, wouldn't be surprised if that would be atleast one if the factors.

Creatine is also found in seafood and plant-based sources as well. I don't know the exact concentrations though. Iron is really the big one when it comes to a meatless diet. You can't easily get enough iron from other sources without a supplement.

I've been vegetarian for most of my adult life now and have no clue where this myth comes from. If you eat the same amount of calories on a vegetarian diet you will almost surely hit your iron requirements, even if you are physically active. Lentils, tofu, chickpeas, spinach, beans all have more iron than beef on a gram-for-gram basis.

You have to switch it up sometimes to get all of the amino acids humans can't synthesize, but it's not exactly hard. Rice and beans (a staple in huge parts of the world) contains all of the essential amino acids you need and is a "complete" protein. There are many such examples.

There's nothing special about cows or pigs or chickens. Our bodies are so similar that we mostly use bacteria to digest meat, which is why you lose the ability to stomach it if you stop regularly eating flesh. It's also why we're looking at pigs for organ transplants.

The main supplements for vegans/vegetarians are omega-3s and B12. Both are available from plant sources, and the latter is given as a supplement in feed since animals only synthesize it on a grass-fed diet.

I didn't experience that in practice, and it seems that the difference is between heme and non-heme iron. Spinach has non-heme iron which isn't absorbed very well, and absorption makes a huge difference.

I did a quick search and found:

"Iron from food comes in two forms: heme and non-heme. Heme is found only in animal flesh like meat, poultry, and seafood. Non-heme iron is found in plant foods like whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes, and leafy greens. Non-heme iron is also found in animal flesh (as animals consume plant foods with non-heme iron) and fortified foods."

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/iron/

I would advise not taking anyone seriously who advocates for an ideologically driven vegan diet and makes statements like "There's nothing special about cows or pigs or chickens. Our bodies are so similar that we mostly use bacteria to digest meat, which is why you lose the ability to stomach it if you stop regularly eating flesh."

Let's start with the fact that the human stomach acid pH which you can feel free to Google. It's nothing like the other animals he's talking about. Our stomach acid is extremely acidic due to our early evolutionary history as carnivorous carrion eaters. He also parrots another myth which is that once you are vegan you lose the ability to digest meat. My father has been vegan for 20 years and I was vegan for 5 and was able to digest meat right away with no issues when I went back to meat. It's a myth repeated by vegan ideologues and is completely unfounded in science.

Do I think someone can be very healthy on a vegan diet? Yes. But the last people you should ever listen to are vegan ideologues. They already have an answer in mind and do nothing but cherry pick facts to support their chosen answer.

This also took place in Brazil, which is a country famous for its meat-heavy common diet. It seems probable that there are less diverse and available vegetarian options there (just speculation though)

As a fellow vegetarian, this was my first thought as well.

I don't think this paper can be taken as sufficient evidence to rule out nutritional deficiencies that could contribute to mental health issues (e.g., decreased B vitamins, iron, vitamin D, tryptophan, etc). I know that when I diligently take these kinds of supplements, I do have more energy and sleep better. However, the "humans are destroying the world" sad feelings that drove me to stop eating meat persist, making me wonder if this is quite confounded relationship.

It's ridiculously difficult to obtain a properly-balanced, nutritious diet when you've chosen to reject major components such as flesh meat, gluten, anything that's cooked, etc.

Beef alone, as a source of iron and other vitamins that are needed especially by men, is critical.

People are now trying to raise children and animals on vegan or keto or gluten-free diets, and I call that cruelty. The effects of malnutrition are subtle and long-term, and so people who go on a fad diet for a while will not notice, and people who routinely eat any sort of junk food and processed food do not notice that they are malnourished yet obese.

My mental health improves by leaps and bounds when I eat a healthy diet: I feel better simply because I'm not abusing my body, I feel satisfaction in preparing wholesome meals with known ingredients in my own kitchen, I enjoy saving money. Moreover, my sleep hygiene improves and my daily schedule approaches something of a productive citizen instead of a listless, lethargic couch potato.

Since I do suffer from chronic mental illness centralized around mood disorders, having a good healthy diet is absolutely essential to my healing and recovery, more than any drug, alongside therapy and regular meditation and practice of my faith in Christ.

It is true that you have to put a bit of thought into how you source viatmins and proteinif you stop eating meat. But it's very doable. Interestingly women actually have a much higher requirement for iron (not surprising when you think about it). Anyway, this is why a great first step is to cut down on meat consumption, to 3-4 times per week. Cooking wholesome meals has nothing to do with vegetarianism as far as I can see.

> It's ridiculously difficult to obtain a properly-balanced, nutritious diet when you've chosen to reject major components such as flesh meat

The Brahmin in India seem to have managed it for thousands of years, as have other groups.

There may be some Brahmin in India that do not have a properly-balanced, nutritious diet, but you find that in meat-eating cultures as well. The CDC says about three in four US adults are overweight.

"Beef alone, as a source of iron and other vitamins that are needed especially by men, is critical."

This isn't true. A healthy vegetarian diet can provide you with everything your body needs.

There's so much in this comment I'm not really sure where to start. I guess the first is the "especially men" comment is weird, especially in the context of women generally needing more iron and being prone to bouts of anemia. Unless you're shedding your uterine lining every month your iron needs are probably being hit unconsciously.

The average American consumes twice the recommended daily protein intake but half the fiber. If we want to talk about healthy diets we should probably start there. Plus the bit about cruelty is hilarious if not sad — condemning billions of sapient beings to lives of immeasurable suffering unnecessarily for tradition doesn't sound cruelty-free. But sure, feeding your kids fruits and vegetables without hot dogs is the REAL cruelty. Forget the fact we supplement animal feed with beta complex vitamins because we don't even give them the dignity of grass beneath their feet. Truly unconscionable to ask humans to take a b12 or omega-3 supplement; forcing living beings capable of complex emotions to take the supplement for you and then having them killed is comme-il-faut.

This also entirely ignores the carnists and omnis that feed their children a diet of Smuckers Uncrustables(tm) and Kraft Mac n Cheese(tm). Let's not pretend malnutrition is mostly happening to children on plant-based diets when most Americans are buying ready-made junk food for their "picky eaters". Remind me what is in a "chicken nugget" again?

Lastly, good sleep / physical exercise / healthy diet / solid friend group are all protective factors against mental illness but they certainly are not more effective than any drug. People with all of those boxes ticked still get mental illness and suffer. The drugs we have today may be crude, but they most certainly work. Therapy is wonderful but wasn't exactly doing anything for my ADHD. Medication changed my life and I have Dr. Gordon Alles to credit for that -- not a diet.

You also have to consider the possibility that it is depression that motivates some people to go on meatless diets.

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