Cruise driverless vehicles involved in 3 separate traffic incidents in SF
kron4.com
kron4.com
I just wish we could have less cars overall and more bikes, scooters, trains, buses, etc.
> UNITED STATES—A self-driving vehicle created by Cruise, a self-driving arm of General Motors Co., crashed into another car in San Francisco, leading to the recall of 80 more vehicles. One person who drove the car was arrested for suspicion of DUI. The algorithm that controls Cruise’s cars is reportedly capable of counting pedestrians and cyclists and detecting steel guardrails.[1]
Just found another somewhat amusing link as I was looking for the number of cars. Here's two cruise drivers blocking the street. I guess they deadlocked[2].
[1] https://www.thesfnews.com/san-francisco-cruise-crash-leads-t...
[2] https://old.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/xloemd/two_se...
3 out of 30 is pretty pretty bad!
If 10% of the Toyota Camrys on the road in a given city suddenly froze in place and caused traffic jams simultaneously in a major US city, requiring roadside assistance, we'd all be laughing at those incompetent dinosaurs.
A better metric would be incidents per hour driven, not per vehicle.
Again we are talking about 3 of the 30 vehicles they have on road failing at the same time. Imagine if 10% of taxis in your city suddenly froze in place for 20 minutes until a special tow truck came after a pedestrian called the number on the back?
Or if all taxis in your city, when traveling through a particular intersection froze in place, requiring bystanders to call a response team from the taxi dispatch to come out and show the driver what to do?
It would be interesting to see the metrics of number of interventions/calls/responses Cruise is experiencing daily/weekly/montlhy.
In practice, if companies have these kinds of issues regularly, it'll be similar to how scooters and dock free bikes have been rolled out: they'll be allowed initially, then the city officials will kick them out if they're causing more trouble than they're worth.
For more details, see this recent whisteleblower account of the situation: Cruise robotaxi service under review following anonymous letter (https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/14/cruise-robotaxi-under-revi...)
I work directly with the employee who submitted the complaint. He is understating the problem.
The letter also states that Cruise ... intentionally hides from the majority of employees the results of investigations into collisions involving Cruise vehicles and other sensitive, potentially damaging matters.
Cruise has been covering up safety incidents since before the GM acquisition, including an early incident where an engineer suffered a concussion due to violent cabin motion caused by bad motion control code.
In a taxi or even perma-loss-leading Uber/Lyft, there is a labor component which disincentives between-ride transient driving. Whether they are paid employees costing company money, or independent contractors looking at hours worked vs take home pay..
In a high fixed cost, low operating cost driverless taxi this is not the case. Very easy to imagine fleets of these stupid things clogging the streets even worse than Uber ever did.
Note NYC traffic + TL&C stats already show Uber/Lyft have always had much lower utilization rate per hour/mile than yellow cabs, and thus require more cars on the road to serve the same passenger miles.
3 complete shutdowns blocking traffic in one city on the same day.
Like, traffic is a solvable problem with what we have today. This obsession with the automobile is going to cause such a continued headache for us. And yeah, we probably still need a few cars and taxis around, but surely we can just have a human drive the taxi?
It's a shame SV took advantage of ZIRP to fund never-going-to-work software and perma-unprofitable businesses, subsidizing the urban upper class lifestyle.. but governments did not use the same cheap funding to build some trains.
There's no cabal of greedy capitalists who are purposely holding us back in order to profit off of more misery.
Edit: I take that back: there is a group of greedy people who do actually benefit from misery, and that would be our dear politicians ;-)
The advertising industry's continued existence and expansion seems to disprove this. There's absolutely no reason most tech products out there should intentionally waste user's time by showing them ads for things to buy when they're doing unrelated tasks, and yet they can and do so because a minority can benefit.
How does a cop give a ticket to one of these anyway?
And what should be the fine? Should it scale to the size of the owner's pocketbook like some jurisdictions advocate as the only way to truly supress traffic violations?
Or should there be a whole new category of inhuman violations with penalties exorbitant enough to supress cars getting out on the road while impaired with Artificial Stupidity to begin with?
Maybe there needs to be a higher standard here where natural stupidity needs to be allowed for with ordinary humans which is bad enough, but any artificial stupidity can not be tolerated at all.
Some would probably think you should lose your license for a long time.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/01/self-driving-cars-from-gms-c...
Seriously? In this day and age? On the internet?
I believe HN should have a policy of deleting links to content that isn't accessible worldwide. Either we play the Internet game, or a "bunch of walled gardens" game.
GDPR is about protecting personal information (specifically, giving people the right to access, correct and delete personal information), and I do not believe showing a web page would somehow cause the web site to come into possession of my personal information and thus fall under any of the GDPR regulations.
In other words, this has nothing to do with GDPR.
Also, after we've had this tangent discussion, I would submit that if a site is (deliberately) available only to a part of the Internet, it should not be HN material. Unless HN wants to be a "US-only" site.
I'm impressed it works as well as it already does, and I'm looking forward to more bugs getting worked out.
No company should be running "experiments" like this on a public road with a 5000+ lb vehicle.
(Are those cars really 5000 lbs? They seem small for that, but point taken.)
Hopefully there is consolidation & regulation in the space before we have too much testing in public gone wrong.
In my mind the entire self driving industry is trying to apply ML/AI practices from use cases that just require ~51%-ish "right more often than wrong" precision onto driving which needs 99.999+%.
If some of your phones images are mis-tagged as a cat instead of dog, or some of your cat photos are not tagged as a cat, it's not a huge issue..
In quant trading as long as your trade makes money 51+% of the time, you are going to accumulate returns in the long run.
Car license plate readers for speed tickets / tolls / etc have a similar "pretty close / pretty good" requirement.
Tesla & others are trying a SV "disrupt" type approach that also requires the car to basically work for every use case. City driving is horribly difficult. I would argue that handling city driving without intervention is not far off AGI. The amount of situations you can encounter in city driving are essentially infinite. And you need a self driving car to be able to handle things the first time they see it, not just once that particular type of scenario has been tagged in training set.
Germans (BMW, MB specifically) are following a more methodical, legalistic approach to driver assistance towards autonomous driving. Adaptive cruise & lane keeping, emergency braking. Then automated lane changing. Then hands-free below 35mph. Then handles on/off ramps. Etc etc, step by step. But at each step, the system actually works will for the well-define feature set they have sold you, and doesn't regress month to month with bad releases.
For many people if your car could handle the highways entirely and you just hand to get yourself to/from the highway, they'd be really happy. And this is a far more achievable goal than essentially solving AGI.
For example, Tesla for a while was shipping cars their cheapest with the heated seat hardware installed but software locked, and then offering buyers to pay later to unlock. Similar for some battery capacities.
Likewise, Tesla charges for the monthly cellular data you almost certainly want/need after the first year, while BMW includes it free for the lifetime of the car or warranty (I don't recall offhand). BMW does offer you to upgrade the cellular service to let the car be a wifi hotspot, whereas Tesla doesn't offer that at all.
You can use CarPlay on your BMW and therefore be relying on your phone data as well, while Tesla does not.. so if you want functional streaming music & GPS with traffic data on that big screen you are going to pay up after year 1.
On the self driving software, Tesla has tried different ways of pricing & slicing (AP/EAP/FSD) over the years. Aside from the now free base AP offering, EAP/FSD has always been quite pricey compared to optioning out some of the assistance packages on BMW and other competitors. Similarly because Tesla has included the same hardware, they'll gladly sell you the software later (at progressively increasing pricing).
Porsche also offers "function on demand" to add software packages later to unlock various automations you didn't buy initially..
Read the car's user manual, Autopilot marketing page and car sales page to come back with 3 different answers. Not to mention tweets & press releases.
Autopilot is safe & will prevent accidents and avoid accidents.. but also Autosteer (which is the steering part of autopilot) is beta and shouldn't be used near pedestrians.
FSD is a 5-figure software beta, test gated and essentially should work anywhere with supervision, but also no one knows what scenarios it doesn't support other than "discovering" them in the wild & excusing Tesla for yet another "first", such as oncoming trolley cars vs your unprotected left turn. It avoids pedestrians and obstacles, unless they are short. etc etc.
The Germans are not charging users for ill defined, beta, work-in-progress software.
I was up in Palo Alto during a light rainstorm, and we were on our lunch break. I was driving two coworkers in my 1988 Acura, one of whom was an absolute freak who drove his sports car super-aggressively.
I was at an intersection in the left turn lane, waiting for an opening. Traffic was fairly heavy and the roads were slick. I saw a possible opening and took it, but there was a car in oncoming traffic faster than I had anticipated. Having begun my maneuver, I counterintuitively held my foot to the accelerator, rather than stomping the brake, and my Integra obediently sped through the turn without incident.
Both of my coworkers commended my presence of mind and I was relieved that my driving skills were validated. Our company was involved in selling software components, and I have no idea what a "self-driving" car would've done in that situation, but as I had discovered, staying the course and stomping the gas pedal was counterintuitive in that place and time, but ultimately correct and safe.
It's like if spell check only worked on words shorter than 6 letters.
Probably pretty fun if you happen to be a passenger when this happens.
No true self-driving car would have attempted the turn.
If you were to blacklist every intersection that could possibly be low visibility given weather, season, time of day and traffic conditions.. the car is going to be taking a lot of long routes around many many blacklisted intersections.
Probably 50% of residential driveways could be classified this way, and yet the vast majority of people make it out of their driveway the vast majority of mornings.
Until it.. out of nowhere, crosses the double yellow lines around a turn and is barreling straight towards a cliff. 3 if not 4 of the cars wheels crossed the double yellow lines before the driver was able to intervene and basically save their lives. Had their been oncoming traffic, there may not have been a driver alive to post the video after. Another 1-2 seconds and they would have been been over the cliff.
Albuquerque NM has/had issues with older drivers (lots of retirees there and Santa Fe) who would refuse to use turn signals and would purposefully drive slow on the highways to slow the flow of traffic.
Police and highway patrol had to start issuing tickets and instituted minimum highway speeds.
Here in California, drivers all use their highbeams in the city. Police refuse to enforce it so it's become rampant.
Blinds me and sears my retinas thanks to my astigmatism. Like staring at the sun with those damned halogen lights.
When I was a young man with a new wife and child I applied with a local IT company to be a 'desktop expert' (they only knew business/IT solutions).
Part of the interview was driving around talking.
A person was pulling to a dog leg to turn, we were far from them and the other car had plenty of time/room to turn...since so were we. The owner- an older man, said 'I'm not going to signal because if I do, he will go first.'
Blew my mind someone could do that on purpose .
Moved back to California years later and it was endemic. People all over now do this and it infuriates me every time.
Or they see you waiting to turn and speed up until they see you give up on going, then slow to a crawl.
Contrast all of this with rural Texas and all of Washington where people wave, give right of way, always dim lights, move over for bikers, and are generally nicer, more respectful on the roads and in general.
Let alone read subtle cues from the surrounding cars "body language" where you can take a pretty good educated guess they are going to change lanes or make a turn even though they haven't signaled, and therefore give them space. Generally they are pretty bad at anticipating things based on various indirect signals that are instinctual to a human.
There's a long way to go in the space, and the software hasn't even begun to play the "meta game" of driving required to be a halfway decent driver.