Silphion: a miracle plant thought to be eaten into extinction 2k years ago | Hacker News Reader

Silphion: a miracle plant thought to be eaten into extinction 2k years ago

nationalgeographic.com

187 pointsp4bl069 comments

“A 2021 paper made the case that Ferula drudeana, an endemic species found in Turkey, is the true identity of Silphium based on similarity of appearance and production of a resin with supposedly similar properties to Silphium.[16] However, this hypothesis has not, as of 2022, gained traction. One problem with this hypothesis is that F. drudeana appears to be much more closely related to other Anatolian species than to North African Ferula species,[17] which would be consistent with the origin of Silphium in North Africa.”

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium

That's what I thought unfortunately, and doubly so because a few months ago I read something completely different on this—I unfortunately don't currently recall where—where the hypothesis was that actually Silphion was a… I don't recall exactly anymore, but, something like, a special phenotype of an even more special naturally forming, infertile hybrid of two other plants which required very specific conditions to be able form grow, and that changes caused by the Romans to the local microclimate there made it go extinct.

Actually, here's a paper which seems pretty darn close:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcosc.2021.7859... I think it wasn't this paper, but probably someone's writing based upon that paper, and here's a quote from that paper, a quote which actually references the very same 2021 paper, which that natgeo article references:

"The double-seeded schizocarp of F. drudeana is also consistent with silphium's own fruit. However, its foliage fails to share a resemblance with silphium's in both shape and structure (Miski, 2021)."

Funny how Miski none-the-less claims that it's actual Silphion, despite (apparently) his own work (as referenced by the paper I linked) contradicting this. I haven't yet finished reading the natgeo piece[edit: by now, I have], but I'd suspect something like Miski probably having made some pharma discovery from this, patented it, a stealth mode startup behind it, and the natgeo article act as a fluff piece to—please pardon the pun—fluffer up venture capital investor interest. Or something like that. Could also just be a case of stupidity and sensationalistismic[sic] sensation-greed, i.e. Hanlon's razor, &c.

Also, here's the Twitter thread, by the NatGeo article author, for the NatGeo article, and that thread doesn't make me any less suspicious (albeit also not more suspicious):

https://twitter.com/lostsupper/status/1573296595860332546

Edit:

Now if only I'd re-find that piece on the formation of this. Given what the NatGeo piece mentions about Greeks having possibly moved seeds from North Africa to Anatolia, perhaps F. drudeana makes for half of what we'd need to bring Silphion back!

More commonly called "silphium" -- for the benefit of those searching for past HN threads,

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=silphium&type=all

Amusingly, another name for it is “laser”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium

Laser is thought to refer to some product derived but not entirely made out of this plant. I can't find the source right now, but I remember reading a theory that argued that the plant never actually went exctict. Instead, the technique for producing the flavour of laserpicium the romans loved (it was also produced in Greece and elsewhere, but it was somewhat different) was simply lost after they took over the productions in Cyrene.

Neither the article nor the wiki page reveals exactly who thought it was eaten into extinction, which I find difficult to believe is a notion that came from legitimate experts on the subject. Certainly many animal species were eaten into extinction, and many plant species have gone extinct, but I have not heard before of any plant species that were eaten into extinction.

The title itself is cheap click-bait. "This miracle plant was eaten into extinction 2,000 years ago—or was it?" Well, clearly it wasn't if the header image shows somebody today holding the plant, was it? I wonder when will people on the Internet just be able to tell a fucking story by keeping it to the point.

well it does say "was thought to be extinct" right under the photo, which seems to speak to your point.

Yeah, contradicting the question/statement in the click-bait is the first thing you do afterwards in a modern article.

The article talks about how the plant is extremely difficult to cultivate; I wonder if the reason it could be eaten into extinction is because it only grew in the wild, and couldn't be properly farmed in proportion to its popularity.

They said it was extremely difficult to cultivate, but they were able to get them to sprout using cold stratification... Kind of a basic technique nowadays. Lavender, hardy hibiscus, some geraniums, phlox, Chinese lantern, black-eyed susan - all of these common plants need cold stratification to germinate. Home gardeners utilize a plastic bag and their refrigerator. I'm sure this was more vexing in ancient Rome, but the article was talking about cultivating the modern plant in question. Unless there was a lot more to it that the article glossed over, "extremely difficult" is not the the term I'd use to describe the process. It's one of the basic techniques propogators try with a new species when dropping the seeds in the dirt doesn't work.

Well that is literally the story of this plant. It was valued by the emperor of Rome so much that it was worth its weight in gold. It only grew in one spot and was stripped bare for profit. It never grew back.

I couldn’t get the article to load on mobile, so I’m not sure if it talks about this, but there was some theory that it was a natural hybrid and therefore the one instance of the plant was the only one ever grown. It’s known that the seeds never took root and it was never found outside of this one hillside on the eastern Mediterranean.

I think the parent is asking, how do we know that story is truly how it happened? Perhaps it's an allegory about profit like you said, to teach others not to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, as a parallel. Another comment in this thread talked about how changes in Roman microclimate made it unable to thrive anymore.

We know the plant existed from copious administrative records, if that’s what you’re asking.

The Romans thought they ate it into extinction (although they didn't really have the concept of "extinction," per se -- it's more likely they just thought there was no more for them to find).

Silphium certainly seems to have been a member of the (200+ strong) Ferula genus given their physical similarity to the plant depicted on ancient coins from Cyrene (in modern Libya).

However, there seems to be some doubt whether this particular plant, Ferula drudeana, from Turkey, is the same plant or not.

The romans, who so valued Silphium, also sometimes used a different plant, Asafoetida as a cheaper alternative, so the properties of Silphium obviously weren't totally unique, and Ferula drudeana may well be very similar if not the exact same plant.

The appearance of Silphium on coins does differ a bit from these plants - more fleshy "arms", but maybe that's just artistic interpretation.

Sandalwood+asfoeteda is my favorite cologne, Chandan Sandalwood.

I say the first step now (if it wasn't done already) should be to send seeds to the seed bank in Svalbard and other seed banks (distributed resilience) allong with documentation about how it was cultivated.

Article mentions that there are 600 known plants in existence, and that 300 of those have been propogated in botanical gardens.

So maybe this is (similar enough to) the original plant, or maybe it's a different one. But either way, they said it was delicious. So I hope they manage to cultivate it!

> ancient silphion resisted cultivation

Can't fall to mention that this is also shared with some big Apiaceae. Too big for pots and that typically don't tolerate having its deep roots being moved or disturbed in any way.

The photos shown plants being moved from pot to soil, so definitely can be cultured carefully, but is more difficult than other crops.

I assume the main professor had eaten some safely before throwing his silphium party for all those historians at the end of the article, but still, I'd have been pretty nervous about digging into a big pot of lentils flavored with some random plant. Lot of really toxic things out there in the world, and just because it smells nice doesn't mean it's not going to shut down your synapses later!

And the Apiaceae family is particularly evil in that sense. Ferula is in the same family as the carrot, but also is a distant relative of Hemlock and of the "Joker's plant".

Potato in itself is poisonous, no need to go looking for any relatives (and there's plenty more poisonous plants in the nightshade family). Yet we still eat it.

Please explain how this food (a staple for millions, for centuries) is poisonous?

The tuber isn't poisonous unless it suffers prolonged exposure to sunlight (this is why you should not eat green potatoes). The green foliage and tomato-like fruits of the potato plant are poisonous, so should not be eaten.

Also while I wouldn’t call raw potato poisonous, it does contain toxins that are neutralised by cooking.

> Most home processing methods like boiling, cooking, and frying potatoes have been shown to have minimal effects on solanine levels. Boiling potatoes reduces the solanine levels by only 1.2%, making it an ineffective way to decrease the concentration of glycoalkaloids in potatoes.[23] Deep-frying at 150 °C (302 °F) also does not result in any measurable change. Alkaloids like solanine have been shown to start decomposing and degrading at approximately 170 °C (338 °F), and deep-frying potatoes at 210 °C (410 °F) for 10 minutes causes a loss of ∼40% of the solanine.[24] However, microwaving potatoes only reduces the alkaloid content by 15%. Freeze drying and dehydrating potatoes has a very minimal effect on solanine content.[25][26]

> The majority (30-80%) of the solanine in potatoes is found in the outer layer of the potato.[26] Therefore, peeling potatoes before cooking them reduces the glycoalkaloid intake from potato consumption. Fried potato peels have been shown to have 1.4–1.5 mg solanine/g, which is seven times the recommended upper safety limit of 0.2 mg/g.[18] Chewing a small piece of the raw potato peel before cooking can help determine the level of solanine contained in the potato; bitterness indicates high glycoalkaloid content.[18] If the potato has more than 0.2 mg/g of solanine, an immediate burning sensation will develop in the mouth.[18]

Solanine poisoning can even be done by gas inhalation.

Potatoes are inherently poisonous, especially if they are sprouting. But in the potato tuber itself, the doage is low enough not to worry... as long as you're older than 3 or 4. Beneath that, and you can subject children to poisoning accidentally.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/14/girl-8-orphaned-...

The leaves and stems of the potato plant are toxic for humans. We eat the tuber.

Technically the potato tuber is also part of the stem. If the tuber is exposed to sunlight it’s as toxic as the rest of the stem.

Aside from the well-known toxicity of potato stalks, leaves, and flowers, and of the tuber once it has been exposed to enough sunlight, even the edible tuber is usually poisonous enough to noticeably irritate your mouth and throat if you eat a mouthful or two raw. You have to cook it to make it edible.

There's a couple of orders of magnitude of errors in your comment: it's hundreds of millions, for centuries, or tens of millions, for millennia.

But potato has nothing on cassava, which has also been a staple for tens of millions for millennia. Looks like you're a Yank, like half the people on this godforsaken website, so you might only know it as "tapioca". In both cases, being poisonous discourages insects and other wildlife from expropriating your crops, and James C. Scott famously argues that being underground makes it more difficult for a certain kind of human pest to expropriate them as well.

So the humans deliberately eat roots because they are full of cyanide. Truly they are space orcs.

I was enjoying your comment until it stopped being informative and turned into pointless nastiness.

Condolences. I didn't intend any nastiness, if that helps.

I reread it in more of a joking tone. Much more pleasant. Sorry for assuming the worst.

No worries, I can see how you would read it that way.

It's right in the wiki.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato#Toxicity

Everything in potatoes (leaves, flower and fruits) is poisonous. All except the potato but not always.

Green potatoes are very poisonous because they have a defensive substance called solanin. But crops were selected to remove the solanin.

Ok. TIL.

Solanaceae (Potato family) hold the bigger body account among all plants, for sure.

Even some edible carrot-like plants can produce enough photosensitizers in their sap to deliver quite nasty burns. Be careful bushwhacking through things that look like carrots!

I'm not finding anything call "Joker's plant". Is that a reference to something that went over my head?

Is an European Apiaceae. Its poison causes a terrible death, not much unlike when the Joker kills somebody in Batman's comics.

Ah. When I search for Joker's plant, the only place I'm seeing that term is actually your comment here.

> Lot of really toxic things out there in the world, and just because it smells nice doesn't mean it's not going to shut down your synapses later!

Or the other direction of firing those synapses into high gear. Know your dosage!

Whether it's a random plant or table salt, the dose is what determines how safe it is.

One of the few pieces of useful information I took out of scouting was the "universal edibility test"[1] -- I assume the professor did some version of it, probably abbreviated because just about everything else in Ferula is edible (at least in doses used for flavoring).

[1]: https://www.backpacker.com/skills/universal-edibility-test/

Am I the only one who thought it weird the first thing the guy does to introduce the plant is rip it from the ground, presumably killing it? Unless he put it back, but didn’t see that mentioned.

Silphium is most probably a big Apiaceae related with, or in the genus Ferula. Is the best match for the description. Ferula is not a rare genus in the Mediterranean and we are still discovering new species. One in 2007 for example. I don't know the status of this particular species, but I assume that "probably" is not rare. They are short lived perennials that seed and die.

But we need to take in mind that we could be searching in the wrong place. The Mediterranean islands had humid forests, with exclusive species of maples, coniphers and elms. Not much unlike Japan. Thousands of new flowers and herbs. This world has vanished long time ago.

So we would need to compare Silphium not only with the Mediterranean Flora, but see further and include all families. We have relict species in the Pyrenees in tropical families with South African relatives for example.

> I don't know the status of this particular species, but I assume that "probably" is not rare. They are short lived perennials that seed and die.

The end of the article mentions that this one is still critically endangered, with 600 known specimens.

Ok, then. If this really matters for the survival of the population or not, depends on the context. When the plant seeds is dead already. Flowering starts a metabolical countdown that ends with the "suicide" of the entire plant.

He has part of a flowering stalk in the hand, not viable seeds there. Yes is bad, but... he could have good reasons to do it.

For example if he wants to pollinate a batch of cultured plants at the lab to assure to increase the genetical diversity but remaining purebreed. Scientists do this all the time.

Or he could want to maintain an herbarium because we need to assure that this is the only Ferula species in our breeding population, and this needs sampling the population and microscope.

Or to take a sample of the pollen to see if both plants are the same. Search for fossil pollen of Silphium in archaeological sites sounds like a reasonable idea to me.

Or to sample the chemicals to see if some could be useful, (would lead to the plant being cultured, propagated in mass and saved as economical resource).

Or to deliberately forbid the plant flowering when is small. To abort the dying countdown and potentiate vegetative grow (so the plant flower one year later with much, much more seeds in a bigger plant).

Of course could be just because... national geographic wanted a stupid photo

But before to start badmouthing anybody, we need to have all the context. As botanic, he can have solid reasons to remove part of a flower stalk in an endangered species. Governments grant special permits for scientific work covering exactly this things.

he had found how plant it in artificial environment, maybe can't work on recovery population but enough for this.

It doesn’t look like it was the first thing he did. Article says he’s been studying the plant since the 80s

I assume it was in a stand of plants of the same species. You sort of need a specimen to ID and document the species.

I’m fascinated by the medical properties. They should extract the chemical and see what effects they have.

So what does it taste like?

Tasting History did a video on it:

https://youtu.be/D-QHd4_1geE

Is close to fennel, probably more acrid and resinous.

The article compares it to asafoetida, which is visually similar and comes from the same genus (Ferula).

Asafoetida smells pretty awful (I have a little jar of it), but it adds a pleasant onion-to-garlic flavor to dishes.

Gotta say the webmd description doesn't make me want to try it:

-- start quote --

Asafoetida is a plant that has a bad smell and tastes bitter. It is sometimes called "devil's dung."

People use asafoetida resin, a gum-like material, as medicine. Asafoetida resin is produced by solidifying juice that comes out of cuts made in the plant's living roots.

People use asafoetida for conditions such as breathing or throat problems, digestion problems, or by women to restart their menstrual periods after menstruation has stopped for some reason. Asafoetida is also sometimes applied directly to the skin for corns and calluses, but there is no good scientific evidence to support these uses.

In manufacturing, asafoetida is used as a fragrance in cosmetics and as a flavoring ingredient in foods and beverages. Asafoetida is also used in products meant to repel dogs, cats, and wildlife.

-- end quote --

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-248/asafoet...

Was this really the closest thing to Silphium ?!

I think that description is a little exaggerated -- it doesn't smell amazing, but it doesn't really smell like dung either. Most Indian/Indian subcontinent grocers should have powdered asafoetida for sale; you can see/smell for yourself!

It tastes very good with any kind of dal (split beans, lentils, etc).

Most "miracle plant" claims are pseudoscientific woo. In this case it's even worse - it's claims of stories of claims that are hundreds of years old.

Pseudoscience of this nature is derived specifically from selfish incentives. Nowadays, you can get pretty rich by convincing others something is a “miracle plant” (“super food”, etc), and so that’s why it’s become a cliche.

Did those same or similar incentives exist back then? It doesn’t seem like anyone got rich or powerful from claiming silphion is a miracle plant, and with how widespread the agreeing claims are it’s at least worth investigating.

Oh come on, medical botany and snake oil selling has been huge business for pretty much all of recorded history.

> It doesn’t seem like anyone got rich or powerful

A plant that isn't super common... Sure - there will have been people with fields of the stuff selling it at high prices to city dwellers who can't get hold of it any other way.

It's worth even more if it's hard or slow to cultivate so competing people can't take a few of your seeds and plant them in their own fields and steal your market.

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