At 4.4 miles, Wyoming team sets new rifle shot world record
cowboystatedaily.com
cowboystatedaily.com
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/07/30/tacomhq-struc...
https://tacomhq.com/structured-barrels/
The Engineering Behind a TACOMHQ Structured Barrel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-7LKQYtU48
He done it with every iteration of the AR-15.
The last one was a WWST rifle (a moderized AR with super light materials), and the thing shot like a laser beam.
> traveling at a downward angle and about 600 feet per second as they reached the target zone.
That is incredible. Some BB guns don't even fire horizontally that fast
> Regarding it taking 69 shots to hit the mark, with all the variables that had to be taken into account, “we were thrilled it was so few,” Humphries said.
To give an idea of how difficult this is....
And I'm into shooting sports.
> The shot was made with a custom-built rifle chambered for the .416 Barrett cartridge
That's a huge bullet that was specifically designed for low-supersonic drag and extreme long range. It has a huge amount of energy at the muzzle... (8,767.4 ft-lb or 11,887 J according to wikipedia[1]) so ~600fps down range, even at 4.4 miles, is not that surprising.
The only surprising feat here is they managed to actually hit a target... which is quite incredible.
The .556 (very common AR round) is 112. 9mm common in handguns is around 115.
422 grain = 27.35 grams / 0.9646 ounces.
Do you mean 5.56mm, the NATO standard small arms round iirc? i.e. as an imperial measurement it'd be about the same as a .22, not .556.
Wow.
Right before hitting the target it slowed down to 600 feet/sec, meaning it lost 97% of its kinetic energy during the flight.
I’m quite surprised they didn’t have the barrel pointed higher. Was the shooter on a plateau?
They would also be impressed. I am. I never thought this would get to HN. Really nerding out on some of the math and insight that has been commented on here.
Is there a restriction which prevents a motivated team that can manufacture their own barrels from building a rifle/howitzer hybrid?
The criteria used here are very arbitrary. That’s why they can beat their own record by 43% years after setting it. No one is really interested in doing what they are doing because that’s not really interesting.
I do not know the limits of these systems... and of course they would be exceedingly expensive for your average sport shooter.
AFAIU, Russia doesn't have any munitions comparable to these guided artillery shells or even the guided HIMARS rockets. Arguably these deployments in Ukraine may inch Russia a little closer to resorting to tactical nukes. Their military doctrine relies on tactical nukes as an answer to conventional weapons beyond their own capability, and that's part of the reason Russia has so many tactical nukes deployed (at least at sea).
The DOD straight up announced that a recent military aid package included 1000 M982 Excalibur rounds. Another thing the US has been providing is M1156 PGK. It's a kit used to make unguided rounds more precise by adding GPS guidance and it dramatically reduces long range CEP.
Anecdotally I have noticed a large increase the frequency single shot artillery strikes on Russian tanks appearing in Telegram videos. Previously it would take a few shots to adjust fire. Now it's often boom! tank gone with no previous impacts evident.
What, Russias nuclear doctrine is to use nukes against the threatening of their own sovereignty and borders, not against conventional weapons that are better than theres.
What kind of pathetic military has a nuclear doctrine to drop nukes because the other country has modern technology?.
It doesn't matter anyway because Russias nukes are just for sabre rattling, Russia knows full well the any use of nuclear weapons, tactical or not in Ukraine will bring an overwhelming response that will likely just straight up end the war in Ukraines favour.
I don't believe their doctrine makes a distinction, because the rest of the world would not make a huge distinction.
Im happy to be wrong thought if you could link a primary source.
They have been doing it since the start of the war and do it about every single large shipment of weapons to Ukraine.
I suspect its mostly for a internal audience but also to make the west scared to send weapons which clearly hasn't worked.
Putin should remember that US doctrine explicitly approves massive nuclear first strikes when a situation appears to be escalating to nuclear conflict. Plus the US actually has thousands of mission-ready nukes and only two cities to hit.
Strongly disagree about tactical nuclear weapons; I consider it extremely unlikely that these will be ever used by anyone- way to much escalation for very little gain.
But, 120 mm is a lot bigger than anything I'd be comfortable firing from a rifle.
Here's a live-fire video of the EXACTO: https://youtu.be/YoOaJclkSZg
All the available information is several years old, now. I figure either the EXACTO (or successor) has secretly been deployed, or it proved impractical.
Like... Could you just fire the gun, then put the target where the bullet went an fire again and say its mission accomplished because the real goal is just setting up a gun that stable and precise and deterministic?
>Like... Could you just fire the gun, then put the target where the bullet went an fire again and say its mission accomplished because the real goal is just setting up a gun that stable and precise and deterministic?
No... slight variations in wind and atmospherics across that distance change too rapidly and significantly to make that viable. (Also, you wouldn't need to, you'd just adjust the windage/elevation on the optics and/or fancy rifle mount.)
Also the when the bullet drops from supersonic to subsonic speed, there is a non-deterministic kick that it receives which dramatically reduces accuracy beyond that distance.
Actually non-deterministic? Or just difficult-to-deterministic? Genuinely curious.
Presumably the Navier–Stokes chaos of turbulent flow will eventually amplify quantum fluctuations (where two molecules do or don't interact) into macroscopically divergent fluid dynamic behavior, but I don't know if the relevant Lyapunov time is short enough to make a bullet's flight quantum nondeterministic.
Even with a perfectly still atmosphere it'd probably be fairly difficult to predict.
Fun fact, while video games typically depict suppressors as slowing bullets down, and lowering range (presumably with subsonic ammo). A lot of rifles are actually have slightly longer range with a suppressor and standard ammo because it allows the powder to burn more completely with a slightly higher muzzle velocity and therefore it takes longer to hit that subsonic transition
This doesn't sound right. If it's true, then the same thing -- slight variations over time in wind and atmospherics across a seven kilometer span -- would make the aimed shot nonviable too. The shooter isn't adjusting for air movement between himself and the target -- because that can't be done -- so if he's hitting the target reliably, the air movement can't really matter.
(Yes, statistical "proof" that it wasn't 10,000-to-1 luck would require far more experimental data. With their setup, that wouldn't be quick or cheap to get.)
Saying that this wouldn't be quick or cheap to get is just an admission that you think it was 10,000-to-1 luck. Why wouldn't it be quick?
The 1 in 10000 probability seems arbitrary and underestimated in my opinion though. What would that even mean? The probability of hitting the target with random aiming or purposeful aiming from a fresh start? The probability of hitting the target with a perfected aim and relying on random variance? The probability of doing it without the engineered gun?
Yes, you can.
Not doing so would result in dramatically reduced accuracy.
That's just windage 101.
The horizontal variation due to even slight wind is massive at this distance and would dwarf all other factors. Failing to adjust for this on a per shot basis would result in dramatically reduced accuracy.
Even at 500-700 yards, wind holds can be significant (as in off target). That changes second by second. I can tell you that even as a decent shooter with a better spotter, when the spotter makes a wind call, the slight 1-2 second delay before I can actually press off the shot can be enough where I need to change the hold slightly from what he said to make a good hit.
Over this distance, there will undoubtedly be some fishtail winds and dead spots that are changing on a per second basis. In this case, I'd expect you have a team of spotters reading the mirage at several distances to target, and one lead spotter that is integrating those into the wind call for the shooter.
There's also some new tech that's aimed at this problem actually where instead of getting a wind read at one distance, it measures the wind over the entire distance and gives you a hold based on that. Very fancy stuff, they may have used that in this case.
It would be very difficult to find impact points of the misses - The best they could do was listen for where they hit.
* I am more amazed at the quality of the scope that the shooter could place a bullet on a 8" bullseye at a distance of 7.08km. There must be something fascinating to it since, Rayleigh's criterion for resolving two points puts some physical limits to the aperture. To resolve a palm sized mark, you need a sufficiently large aperture on telescope & that's not easy to mount/operate.
* This is one of the neatest images I have seen of the effect of rifling on the bullet, in addition to the thermochemical effect on the bullet tip. The tip at that distance & time of flight goes through sustained heating & there is some evidence of rapid oxidation - much like a piece of metal exposed for few seconds to blowtorch.
Note that they can do direct fire missions where the target is sighted directly. but I think that is considered too damn close when that happens.
Also note that tanks(a direct fire device) have been known to engage targets at 4+ kilometers. Probably a case of a large stable mount, and a good targeting computer.
A fun fact, computing artillery tables was the primary task of some of the first electronic computers.
However, such jobs have started to disappear very quickly after that time, with the spread of the electronic computers.
For reference, most of your typical spotting scopes are 60x... and even at 1,000 yards things are hard to see.
Here's an article with helpful images through several popular spotting scopes for comparison[1].
So we're seeing copper, and black residue from barrel fouling, aka. powder residue from inside the barrel's rifling. You should be able to wash and/or tumble most of the residue off the bullet and get something shiny out of it.
"The .416 Barrett cartridge is made by “necking down” a .50 Browning Machine Gun (BMG) round to accommodate the roughly .40-caliber bullet. It’s a relatively short, stout bullet that proved ideal for its purpose, Humphries said."
and:
"a 422-grain copper bullet"
There are many bullet designs and materials. Additionally, the cartridge powder load will matter for ultra-long range shots like this too, so knowing what brand of powder, model and how many grains would be helpful too.
A shot like this almost certainly used a hand-assembled, custom round. But the bullet itself is probably "off the shelf" and so would be the powder and case too.
The exact combination might be their "secret sauce" though... long range folks get weird about this stuff.
At this level I wouldn't be surprised if they did something ridiculous like CNC machine a copper billet bullet to ~micron tolerance/consistency.
That said, from the pictures they appear to at least start with a commercial or 'to-spec' round from the company Unknown Munitions.
I have a bunch, you can kick them out on a cnc lathe. Super easy. Not even cost prohibitive depending on how serious you are about ELR.
Taken from their press release here: https://nomadrifleman.com/world-record-shot/
People use $4000-9000 thermal scopes at much less zoom and much shorter ranges under 400 yards shooting feral hogs in Texas.
They aren't aiming for a 4-6 inch target though (I seriously doubt you could even see that with 35x at 4.5 miles). They are aiming for the center of a target 7.5 feet by 10 feet.
The difference between that 8k scope and this 4k scope is mostly a tiny bit of clarity and last 2-3% of fit and finish. Neither of these would affect scope accuracy and the clarity wouldn't exist at that range anyway due to particles in the air. No purpose in special ordering one and blowing 4k that could be spent elsewhere on something that won't impact the actual shot.
* https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/tech-behind-record-settin...
Then your post to see, oh, I have that one.
It’s good, but I’ve had better, and it’s heavy which doesn’t matter in this application.
The logic doesn’t hold water. If I win a competition with x scope, it doesn’t mean there aren’t better ones; it just means I didn’t use y when I did some thing.
I have Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56 and Khales that are both objectively better optics than the Vortex Razor HD III.
But yea, maybe check out “what the pros use” for ELR, the Vortex line is a distant third.
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/09/05/best-elr-scope-and...
EDIT, and I see now that's why they put the periscope ahead of it. That lets them dial past the scope's zeroing limits.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_and_second_of_arc#Firea...
To give a contrived example. Say we have a function f(x) == a*exp(-(x-m)^2). I evaluate f(x) at 1 and 2 and tell you that the evaluations are f(1)=0.27093242847450331643480903517 and f(2)=1.1666240719274935885932696286. From that, you can tell me the amplitude (a) and peak position (m) with on the order of 100 bits of precision (in this example).
This is contrived because its noiseless and you know the system response perfectly, but I think it demonstrates that an alignment under assumptions need not be limited by rayleigh's criterion.
It seems what you need most of all, is the ability to make the most minute of adjustments to the aim of the rifle, combined with feedback on where the last bullet landed relative to the target. Then it becomes a bit like Newton-Raphson approximation. Or are the conditions on the record such that each successive firing must aim from scratch?
One question of interest is how far repeated shots with the exact same rifle aim are going to land from each other. That would depend on changing wind directions and other atmospheric effects. Presumably you pick a day of near zero winds for such attempts.
> The .416 Barrett cartridge is made by “necking down” a .50 Browning Machine Gun (BMG) round to accommodate the roughly .40-caliber bullet. It’s a relatively short, stout bullet that proved ideal for its purpose, Humphries said.
> “Traditionally in extreme long-range shooting, we wanted long, skinny bullets,” he said. “However, we discovered that as a bullet crosses over into subsonic velocity, it flies better if it’s shorter and fatter.”
I can totally see trying for a record being helped with a low aspect ratio bullet (er, short and stubby) though this is probably not what you’d actually do if you were doing anything but trying for records.
Fun fact: if you don’t correct for the fact that the earth is spinning which requires knowing your latitude and compass direction, your targeting will be off by an amount measured in feet at this range.
I spent a while developing external ballistics models for a similar use case years ago.
The standard tome of knowledge is McCoy - Modern Exterior Ballistics https://a.co/d/8B6w0qL
A bullet is like that but has more degrees of freedom so there are a few of these kinematic modes happening at the same time.
Everything happens so fast it’s easy to forget that physics is still happening one molecule at a time.
Wow. Impressive work! I also noted the pitch differential between scope and barrel :O
[1] Id imagine that a bullet, being so light compared to a shell, is more affected by fluid flow than the coreolis force. That the correction was needed means they nailed the far more difficult fluid problem.
> Scott made the wind and elevation call of 1,092 MOA up and 17 MOA left. (In our original release, I forgot to include that we added a 36 MOA left mechanical wind adjustment at the beginning of the day for a total of 53 MOA for the hit. Our calculation for spindrift was 93.80” right) We did not take into account the Coriolis, as much of that is lost in the weeds with respect to wind (6-9 mph), temperature rising (constantly adjusting elevation) and time of flight. The bullet’s flight path is over 2500 feet above line-of-sight and there is a lot going on up there that we are unable to predictably compensate for. If it had been an absolutely dead-calm day it definitely would be one more variable to try to address.
MOA stands for minute of angle, which is 1/60th of a degree, so a 1,092 MOA adjustment is 18.2 degrees. It's insane that they managed to hit the target.
> At this distance you'll also have to take the Coriolis effect into account.
COD did it first
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a41283557/...
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It's trivially easy to make an air gun capable of killing someone with parts from a hardware store and a bicycle tire pump. $20 in parts, give or take, plus the cost of the pump.
Beyond that, manufacturing explosives is also easy with chemicals from a hardware store. Manufacturing stable explosives is a bit trickier, though not by much- it just limits the explosives you can make.
Really big weapons are harder to use in petty crime, because they're really, really obvious when you carry them around, and petty crime isn't worth whipping the big guns out for- the bullet is probably worth more than what you could get off of most people walking the street.
I fired it up into the air once and lost sight of the golf ball while it was still climbing.
The joys of living in rural, WV!
As it happens I still have the plans: https://i.imgur.com/rHo1IO8.png
To scale: https://i.imgur.com/JbdJGQo.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqidD7kVnxY
(There are several videos in the series.)
You're welcome to build one yourself with the spec and do it. The only things not shown are:
1. An ordinary Schrader (bike tire) on the tank. Drill through the triple walled part somewhere, tap, Teflon tape and twist it in.
2. A 0.25" NPT ~125(?) PSI pop off valve also in the triple walled part (somewhere) and maybe a pressure (I think? The bike pump's gauge should be fine as long as you don't fill it with really cold air and then leave it in the sun). Technically optional, but if you explode yourself it's on you.
2. The battery box to activate the sprinkler valve, but that's just a couple of 9v batteries in series in a project box with a big red button. I never even bothered mounting it to the gun so it just kind of...dangled from the gun by its wires.
3. A wooden block cut to fit between the barrel and tank with a semi-permanent metal strap around it to hold it together. Very solid with this, very janky without it.
Both ends of the sprinkler valve are just sealed with teflon tape and twisted together so You can take it apart for transport.
To assemble the nested barrel I left the 1.5" SDR 21 outside during winter and filled the 2" SCH 80 PVC in the shower with hot water (sat it on the drain plug), then slid the little one into the big one. The 1.5" SDR 21 was hand picked (mic'ed) to closely fit in the outer barrel by the guy I bought it from. You might not even need the outer barrel, but 1.5" SDR is really thin, so the chonky outer barrel protects it.
I played with it up to ~105 PSI, but it could probably handle a lot more without the pop off installed. The U-bend hampers the hell out of the flow, I'm sure, but a 10' long gun would have been very awkward to move around and be hell on the all the component joints. As is, you can hold it like a big minigun and shoot it. Though the cyclic rate is about 1 round per 5 minutes depending on how tired you are on the bike pump. Recoil is negligible. It'll punch a golf ball through 1" of chipboard, who knows what else. Maybe a person.
After the initial discharge the sprinkler valve flap makes a hilarious hooting noise.
Maybe I'll see if the Backyard scientist wants to recreate it? It seems right up his alley.
I also used 3/4" piping, which worked really well for lots of smaller projectiles, and meant that a female threaded adapter and some epoxy let me use 20oz or 2 liter bottles as tanks. I only got them to 80 psi, but I suspect they would have held just fine at 100.
Soft projectiles would disintegrate in the air (no paintballing) but hard things- gobstoppers, batteries, frozen grapes- could cause a lot of fun destruction.
if you were to put a bolt action and or a potato hopper on it or rifle the bore it would be a DD , stay on compresed air if you want to mod up. other than that, smooth bore shove a spud in the end and light up with butane and its a legal device
The real thing you'd probably have to worry about would be accidents, which assuming a not-complete-moron are probably also much much less likely just because the thing would be expensive and annoying to shoot.
greater than 50 cal/12.5 mm is a Destructive Device.
this means a background check similar to a shortbarrel rifle, or fully automatic firearm is required as well as a taxation stamp for purchase and posession.
this isnt an over the counter purchase.
[0]: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-4-application-ta...
The issue with guns is the end times marketing flooding the zone with guns and the malevolent subcultures. If you want to use an awkward weapon, you can juice up a potato cannon with pvc pipe or something.
How many cannons have you heard being used in crimes?
Unlikely. Less than 100K die in war annually, but that isn't only from gun violence. Most gun-related deaths in the US are not from petty crime or gangs. In 2020, 45,222 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC. And more have been killed by a gun in the US since 1968 than in all US wars combined.[1] It would be more accurate (yet still inaccurate) to say most gun violence occurs in the US.[2] 67% of gun owners report defense as the reason for gun ownership, yet there is no evidence that guns are protective, and those living in a home with a gun have a greater chance of being killed by a gun than otherwise.[3]
[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/more-am...
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/07/guns-handgun...
I know it can be difficult to read a "wall of text" like this, but accurately conveying the reality of a nuanced situation cannot be done with perky infographics and bullet points, particularly when it is necessary to carefully dissect the half-truths propagated by dishonest parties. I estimate that reading this will take you about four minutes; it's 1632 words. I hope you have the attention span.
As you may not know, most of those 45'222 "gun-related injury" deaths are suicides; as the BBC article you linked explains, only 19'384 were actually gun violence, up from under 15'000 the year before. (The US had 20'982 homicides overall in 2020, but some were not by gun.) Typically suicides by gun are about twice as common as homicides by gun in the US, but apparently 2020 was an exceptionally violent year there.
Unsurprisingly, suicides by gun are enormously more common among people who live in a home with a gun, which accounts for most of the positive correlation between gun death and gun ownership.
Moreover, there is strong evidence that access to a gun increases people's risk of suicide — it's not merely that people blow their heads off because it's easier than hanging yourself or overdosing on drugs, they actually killed themselves when they would have stayed alive if they hadn't had a gun. This effect is, at best, very weak with homicides, to the point that we don't know whether either population gun prevalence or gun ownership is a weak risk factor or a weak protective factor for homicide.
70 million people died in World War II, which is 3500 years' worth of those 19'384 people per year. If we divide those 70 million over the last century, World War II alone accounts for 700'000 deaths per year, seven times the number you cite of 100'000 per year.
5.4 million people died in the Second Congo War (1998–2008), 270 years' worth of those 19'384 people per exceptionally violent year, but to be fair most of them were held at gunpoint in refugee camps where they died of disease or starved to death, rather than being directly shot; only 350'000 were actually direct violent deaths, which is only a bit more than twice as many as were killed in the US during the same period. (But Congo's population is one third as big.) You will note that 5.4 million people killed over 11 years is 490'000 deaths per year, several times the 100'000 wartime deaths per year you cite, and that's just one war of several that were going on at the time, though it was the biggest one.
The US Civil War involved something like 700'000 deaths, which is about 30–40 years of 2020-level US peacetime gun violence, though, again, out of a much smaller population.
You've inaccurately paraphrased Chelsea Bailey's claim in the NBC article (https://archive.fo/TlCkV); she's talking only about the 1.2 million members of the US armed forces killed in US wars, entirely omitting the people who lived in the countries the US was invading. She even omitted the American civilians killed in the US Civil War! The Vietnam War alone, for example, killed at least 1.3 million people, probably closer to 3 million. The 2020 US's 19'384 gun murders per year would take 150 years to reach that number. Bailey counts the Vietnam War as 0.09 million; she didn't even deign to count Vietnamese and Laotian people as the Constitutional three-fifths of a person. Of course, she also included about a million gun suicides in her 1.53 million gun deaths in the US since 1968. For some reason, the source she cited for this number (a number I think is roughly correct, if misleading when presented as an indicator of gun violence) was an MMWR article from 1994 which documents about 700'000 gun deaths, including suicides, since 1968. Evidently her intended audience isn't the kind of person who checks citations.
It should be unsurprising that when one country invades another, the country that gets invaded suffers the bulk of the deaths. On this count, the US is exceptional, both in not having been invaded since 1865 or arguably 1815, and in invading other countries at a truly unprecedented rate, one that is as far as I know unexcelled even by the Soviet Union, the British Empire, and Genghis Khan. This is known to be an important factor in its relatively high peacetime murder rate.
It is indeed very inaccurate to say that most gun violence occurs in the US, even excluding international warfare; countries with higher homicide counts include Mexico, India, Brazil, and Nigeria, and almost all homicides in Mexico, Brazil, and Nigeria are with guns, just like the US. (India has a much lower murder rate than the US, but because its population is five times as large, it has about twice as many murders, though very few are with guns.)
I'm not sure why comparison articles like the BBC article omit Mexico, Brazil, and Nigeria; it's possible that, like Chelsea Bailey at NBC, they don't consider human deaths important if the people who die aren't white, though Bailey went even further by implicitly dehumanizing US civilian and white European victims of warfare as well. Alternatively, instead of attempting to portray the reality of the world accurately, as I am doing here, they are cherry-picking data points in order to justify a preconceived conclusion.
I don't have current worldwide death statistics handy, unfortunately, but the WHO's burden-of-disease report from 2004 says that in 2002, within the category of "intentional injuries", 557'900 people died of "violence" (i.e., murder), 872'662 of "self-inflicted injuries" (suicide), and 171'021 of "war", which is 1.7 times the 100'000 per year figure you cite for wartime deaths. The US had 15'700 homicides that year, according to that report, 2.8% of world homicides. You will note that this means that 97.2% of homicides, and a somewhat lower fraction of gun homicides, were outside the US. So saying that most gun violence occurs in the US is very inaccurate indeed.
Some subset of those 557'900 were killed with guns in peacetime; it would take 125 years of that death rate, even if it were all guns, to equal the 70 million killed in only World War II, out of, again, a much smaller world population. But of course in the 77 years since World War II there have been many other wars, some of which I've mentioned above. 2002 just happened to be a year without much war.
In conclusion, almost all gun violence is international warfare. Statistically the picture is very clear; though the intensity of warfare varies by orders of magnitude from one year to the next, the average number of war deaths is about an order of magnitude higher than the average number of peacetime gun murders. (Also, as you said, most peacetime gun murders are by family members or intimate partners, not robbers or gangs.)
There do remain three possible quibbles.
First, possibly we should count the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, the Holocaust, the Cambodian Killing Fields, and so on, as "gun violence", and they were not for the most part international warfare. Most of the people killed in the Great Leap Forward were starved to death rather than being shot, and most of the people killed in the Holocaust were gassed, but in both cases gun violence was the foundation of the mass murder system, just as with the Second Congolese Civil War. These deaths (Rummel coined the term "democides" as a generalization of "genocides") account for a surprisingly large fraction of 20th-century violent deaths, comparable in fact to warfare. The US prison system does not rise to the level of these atrocities, as its direct death toll is actually fairly low, but you could argue in the same way that the millions of people every year in the US who are arrested by police with guns and then held in prisons with gun-armed guards are also being subjected to gun violence, even if it doesn't kill them.
Second, possibly World War II was some sort of freak accident that will never be repeated, and the ensuing 60 years of Pax Americana are really more typical of what to expect from now on. Given that Vladimir Putin threatened to start a second nuclear war this week, I am skeptical of that thesis, but it might turn out to be correct. Even in that case, though, peacetime gun homicide has a smaller death toll than warfare; it just stops being an insignificantly small fraction of the total.
Third, as you say, maybe when a missile blows up a hospital and kills half the people inside, or a bomber covers a screaming family with napalm, we shouldn't count that as "gun deaths" because no actual guns are involved, so maybe we should derate the war deaths by some fraction to account for that. We don't really know what fraction of war deaths are from gunshots, especially in cases like Congo with many irregulars and deliberately inaccurate official casualty reports, but even in cases like Vietnam, where there's over a factor of 2 uncertainty in the total death toll. But it seems implausible that gun deaths in war are an order of magnitude less than total deaths in war, so this is not a big enough effect for peacetime gun murders to exceed wartime gun violence.
False. I listed a few facts that are easily verified.
> As you may not know, most of those 45'222 "gun-related injury" deaths are suicides
False. Roughly half are suicides, and not "most." Suicide by gun is a violent death. Your entire diatribe regarding suicide is a straw man.
> 70 million people died in World War II...
I paraphrased, and the title of the article is slightly ambiguous, leaving a tiny pinhole which you are trying to squeeze a straw man of epic proportions through. To be perfectly clear, more Americans have been killed by guns since 1968 than the number of Americans killed in all US wars combined. In this statistic the number of Japanese, North Koreans or Vietnamese, etc., killed are not counted. It is only comparing the number of Americans killed by guns since 1968 to the number of Americans killed in all wars. Yes it is terrible so many have died in war, but unfortunately your argument here is still a straw man and therefore fallicious.
> It is indeed very inaccurate to say that most gun violence occurs in the US,
As stipulated, but I was merely making the point that the statement is more accurate than:
>> Almost all gun violence is international warfare
which is entirely false, and not even 1000 pages of straw man arguments can change that.
In order for your argument to be valid, as mine is, you must focus on what is said, as is, and avoid introducing new information only to attack it.
I understand some people really like guns, but no matter how much they like guns, it doesn't change the simple fact that the more guns there are, the more gun deaths there will be. This is a formula proven over and over, year after year.
It also doesn't change the fact that the Founders had no intention of arming the citizenry, and that our beloved 2nd Amendment is only referring to militias, and we know this beyond doubt from the minutes of the Constitutional Congresses, even though most gun owners can't seem to read the first 3 words of the Amendment. The salient point is not about regulation, it is about militias during a period of history that was so different from today that the 2nd Amendment no longer rationally applies, and people are dying because fanatics, those not exactly mentally stable, insist on owning guns, and not just one or two, but an entire arsenal. One of the statistics in that BBC article is missing something, which is the statistic that for every 100 US citizens there are 120 firearms. But only 1/3rd of Americans are gun owners, so a lot of them have more guns than they can carry or operate, which underscores their fanaticism and irrationality.
No one wants to repeal the 2nd Amendment, not even liberals, because "liberal" literally means tolerant, as in tolerant of those with insane ideas about gun ownership. Though it wouldn't be a bad idea to strike down those portions of DC v. Keller (2008) that overreach beyond the mandate of the Supreme Court to gut the 2nd Amendment, changing it from a selfless right to protect against tyranny to a redundant and selfish right to protect self or property. The Founders debated self-defense and intentionally left it out of the Amendment, because a right of self-defense is much older and more fundamental than the Bill of Rights. And Scalia was completely mistaken: most Americans are not confused about that, nor is there any significant agenda to include self-defense in the 2nd. If that agenda exists, it is of a vanishingly tiny percentage. DC v Heller weakens the 2nd immensely, and is part of a larger trend of dismantling the US Constitution piece by piece, after the suspension of habeas corpus and the continuing assaults on the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments, and most recently, Article II. I wish the Right would just leave the US Constitution alone and be patriots instead of anarchists.
The issue being disputed is whether, as I said, almost all gun violence is international warfare, or not. I clearly showed that your figure for deaths from international warfare is low by at least an order of magnitude. Your lengthy diatribe about the US is almost entirely irrelevant; whether you are right or wrong about the motivations of 18th-century politicians, your countrymen's eccentric hobbies, or trends in your country's jurisprudence, those have no bearing whatsoever on the death tolls of the Congolese Civil War, Operation Barbarossa, or Nigerian bandit gangs.
The US has very little special relevance to this question, since, as I said, some 95% of deaths and 97% of killings happen elsewhere; there are only a few exceptions:
1. They manufacture a significant fraction of the weapons people everywhere use to kill each other.
2. They have started a significant fraction of the wars in the world over the last century or so by invading other countries.
3. They have unusually transparent and reliable health statistics, from which we can to some extent draw conclusions about the rest of the world.
It is entirely unclear what kind of "straw man" you think I am making of your arguments. You said:
- Less than 100K [people] die in war annually: this is dramatically false, as I showed.
- Some people who die in war don't die from gun violence: I agreed with this, but I don't think the fraction is small enough to change the picture much.
- Most gun-related deaths in the US are not from petty crime or gangs: here you were agreeing with my point that petty crime and gangs are a rounding error.
- Statistics about US "gun-related injuries": I explained why this is misleading (cherry-picked year, cherry-picked country, conflation of suicide with violent deaths) and put it in the wider context.
- "more have been killed by a gun in the US since 1968 than in all US wars combined": presumably this meant more people, not more hamsters, more bottles of wine, or more Americans, since the subject at hand was how many people die, not how many hamsters or Americans die. This is completely false; as I showed, the relationship is the other way around, and it's not even close.
- "It would be more accurate (yet still inaccurate) to say most gun violence occurs in the US": I explained why this statement is actually less accurate.
- "67% of gun owners report defense as the reason for gun ownership, yet there is no evidence that guns are protective, and those living in a home with a gun have a greater chance of being killed by a gun than otherwise": this juxtaposition is calculated to produce the false impression that those living in a home with a gun have a greater chance of being killed with a gun by someone else than otherwise. In fact, as I explained, in the US, they have a greater chance of killing themselves with a gun, and almost exactly the same chance, on average, of being killed with a gun by someone else. (The direction of the association depends on exactly how you try to control for confounding factors like being poor or living in a dangerous neighborhood.)
So, of your seven "facts that are easily verified", two are correct (and I explicitly affirmed them), three are completely false, and the other two are misleading half-truths.
As for whether suicide by gun is "a violent death", well, yes, there is a sense of the word "violent" in which almost anything you do with a gun is "violent": if you shoot a target, a violent explosion in the gun propels the bullet into a violent impact with the target, at which point usually either the bullet or the target violently shatters.
However, as you are presumably aware, this is not the sense of the word "violent" being used in the phrase "gun violence". When concerned parents complain about "TV violence" they are not complaining about filmed 4th-of-July fireworks shows or after-school specials about suicide; they are complaining about people being depicted as intentionally harming others. Shelters for "domestic violence" victims are not for people whose house was destroyed by a hurricane or who have overdosed on pills at home; they are for people who need to escape from someone else in their home who is intentionally harming them. An old woman, living alone, found in her bathtub after slitting her wrists is not called "domestic violence". Similarly for "sexual violence", "youth violence", "collective violence", "political violence", and so on. So, when we talk about "gun violence", we are talking about people using guns to intentionally harm others, not for target practice, and not for shooting themselves.
This is important because suicide is different from homicide in almost every way that matters: it has different effects, it has different causes, it affects different people, and in general different measures are effective in reducing it. Almost all they have in common from a public-health perspective is that they do not disproportionately affect old people in the way most causes of death do. Conflating them is not helpful for reasoning.
Please, if you reply again, try to write a higher-quality comment next time, and don't insult my intelligence by substituting puns for reasoning in this way. Also, it would be nice to read less irrelevant tangents about your local partisan politics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_and_Lightfoot
very likely the 1965 Brinks vault robbery inspired the screenplay, but in the movie it was an anti-aircraft 20 mm:
If you want to restrict things based on how often they're used in crimes, you probably want to go after handguns. Around half of murders are committed with handguns.[3] Rifles of any kind are used in ~3% of homicides. For comparison, twice as many people are murdered with bare hands than with rifles. And despite civilians owning .50 BMGs for over a century, nobody can find an instance of someone in the US being murdered with one. In short, the data does not support restricting these things.
1. https://vpc.org/regulating-the-gun-industry/criminal-use-of-...
2. https://www.wnep.com/article/news/local/lackawanna-county/fa...
3. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
(f) For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Destructive Device” means:
(2) Any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may readily be converted to expel a projectile, by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore greater than one-half inch in diameter.
[25.4 mm == 1 inch]
there was an issue with the desert eagle as a 50 cal weapon, at time considered a DD, so there was a revision for civilian carry that was, 49.5 cal with a tapered chamber. if bored out to a true 50 cal, it would constitute production of a DD
i think i was looking at the 20mm cannon as well
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32957960
but posted over here.
Which is how >0.50" black powder rifles, air guns and flare guns still exist.
Headquarters: 4, 23 Serpnia Lane, Kharkiv 61103, Ukraine Tel.: +38 (057) 717-44-44. Mon.–Sat.: 9 a.m. – 7 p.m. (GMT+3) E-mail: snipex@snipex.com
https://twitter.com/search?q=snipex%20alligator&src=typed_qu...
I have no shooting experience, but the arc they have to put into the shot to travel 4.4 miles (~7 km), seems so counter-intuitive to what I associate with shooting. Really impressive work by this team, to have all this calculated out so that they can hit it within 69 shots.
I'm really curious what the success rate of their shot is. From the video, it sounds like the unsuccessful shots were still relatively close by, enough that they seemed confident in being able to still guide it in, so around 1/100 sounds about right, as a crude prior estimate.
The current record for the farthest sniper shot resulting in a kill is just under 2.2 miles for reference. With the power requirements to get a bullet out that far, all of the longest sniper shots are using effectively anti-material rifles (designed to take out a car engine, not a person).
“It’s a one-in-a-million shot. They said it’s not statistically repeatable,” he said. “The amount of precision and time that went into that shot was simply amazing.
To me it seems like a more sensible way to hit a target from 7 km away would be to guide the projectile with movable canards, like the VAPP (or, as mentioned elsethread, the M982 Excalibur or XM1156 PGK). You could even do this with a bow and "arrow": once the "arrow" has gained 300 meters of altitude, it has a range of 7 km if its glide ratio is 24, quite achievable (though a regular arrow has a glide ratio of about 0). And you don't have to shoot it straight up, so you can get by with an even lower glide ratio than that.
The hardest part is finding a range that lets you shoot past 300 yards, is near your house, and doesn't require a pricey membership!
Not to detract from the calculations and physical adjustments required to even get close, but a single bullseye at any other range doesn't impress. It's the grouping, three or more on top of each other.
To maybe detract, this was the 69th consecutive attempt. Hmm.
Magical even to me. But statistically, if you try often enough?
Something like a 2km repeatable shot done with 338 lapua and 26" barrel high accuracy rifle is much more real world.
Or they use same approach that NASA uses to launch a rocket to ensure it lands on the moon? I.e some sophisticated calculation (which I assume part of the “some secrets” mentioned in the article).
So it's like they're admitting it's almost a fluke, and I appreciate how they're being so upfront about that. They made a follow up video about how it's more like YouTube basketball world records than competition level ones. But still a great achievement.
Another very interesting thing to see up close and slow-mo would be the transition from supersonic to subsonic, but I have no idea how you’d even begin to get a camera set up to capture that.
I wrote a story where one scene had a rifle shot from just under a mile away. I don't shoot, and did what research I could under the deadline - characters heard the sound of the impact, and then the sound of the actual report shortly afterward. But I wonder if when it's that far away, if the report wouldn't have been audible at all.
Custom guided artillery shells could probably hit that kind of accuracy at significantly longer ranges, but pure ballistic weapons simply aren’t designed for extreme accuracy at range.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Calabria [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glorious#Sinking
The fluid flow is the hard one!
Even WWII mechanical fire computers took 30-40 variables as input
Source: used to work at NSWCDD
Why does earths rotation matter?
You and the target are both moving at the same speed throughout the bullets flight in the same direction - why should it factor in?
While Pinedale is generally less windy, don't kid yourself, it changes constantly. Add in they did this test at like 8,000 ft elevation. The temperature is constantly changing.
I find it impressive they found a 4.4 mile stretch that was unobstructed, no risk to hitting something (person/critter) in that area. They found a ridge that allowed them a way to somewhat see the target.
No real world application for what they did, but the effort, the science, the planning - impressive.
I'm guessing they must have used GPS to find their location, and calculate the rotation of the earth. But even small changes - like repointing 1mm to the north or south would be huge over that distance.
> ... it was nothing short of miraculous for the shot, the 69th attempt that morning, to land inside an 8-inch orange bullseye.
Think about it though, yeah they fired 69 shots. It took several minutes to setup each shot.
I can't hit a target at 50 yards. Its tough to get the mind clear and the heart rate down, breathing under control, and then try to figure out if the siting is off or you are off. Hell, siting in a firearm is a challenge. Changes in ammo have effects. The environment is always changing.
Anything at this range probably won't have any real world use cases. Nobody is going to try to shoot a deer at 4.4 miles. The military isn't going to use it in war.
What you will see is a ton of data being shared. Someone else will set a record in the future. And we will get to see that data. It really is interesting.
But I doubt you could take all the ammo in the world and randomly hit that target at that distance without a hell of alot of thought and planning.
69 tries required to finally have the shooter put the bullet where the calculator said it should be.
Just mount the damn thing on a robotised arm, give it an anemometer, a military laser rangefinder and a stabilised camera, it will hit shot after shot. That’s pretty much what a small calibre artillery gun is with a slightly higher calibre than their rifle because why bother with such an inefficient projectile anyway.
And to be fair, at this point, given the extensive modification to the rifle, what they are doing is more or less turning it into a poor piece of artillery before shooting it in the worst way possible.
I actually think there’s a lot more “luck” than that. The weather over 4 miles is probably enough to cause errors on a regular basis. Might only make 1/5 shots
It’s even worst here because the limits set on the record are purely arbitrary. Why is a souped rifle, civilian optics cobbled together and a calculator significant when you could just use a higher calibre and a better designed gun?
The whole thing is completely artificial therefor pointless to me. I mean there is reason they are beating their own previously held record by 46%. No one cares so no one is trying to beat them.
Someone said, "How can I do this." It's not that much different than saying "I'll jog around the block." Couple weeks later "I'll jog around the block in half the time when I started." Weeks later "I'll jog around the neighborhood."
It is a hobby. It is complex. Someone made it happen.
The point is there's a spectrum of gamesmanship between completely 'human' and completely 'automatic', and I don't see why these sportsmen's choice along that curve is inherently bad.
Here it’s just pushing the capacity of a rifle and shooting enough to finally get what you want. That’s not really competing. Why stop there and not push the capacity of the gun towards something appropriate?
I personally don’t get it. A more fitting comparaison would be motorsport where the performance of the vehicle matters more than the pilot and which I also find utterly pointless.