Comment by godelski | Hacker News Reader

Comment by godelski | Hacker News Reader

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> There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway.

- GPS Location

- Wifi connections

- Social graphs (phone contacts, as well as inference through locality)

- Dynamic Social interests (how long you watch a video, what videos you tend to watch the most, adapts over time)

- There's a keylogger in the in-app browser

- They are able to influence certain ideas (i.e. propaganda) because they control your feed and can target propaganda and a near personal level

This is a lot of important information that has a lot of power. But you come back and say

> IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.

So I just want to make sure that we connect the bridge. The privacy angle and propaganda angle are one in the same to the privacy community. It is the information gathered that is used to dictate the dopamine hit/propaganda. We need to be clear about these being being part of the same system or else people mindlessly state "nothing to hide, nothing to fear." Data collection is about influence. After all, what are ads if not attempts to influence you? (ads don't just sell products either. Another common misconception)

While there is the concern about invasion of privacy the nuance of the conversation is that the invasion of privacy erodes our free will as it is used to influence us. Obviously there's a complicated part of what is good and bad influence but surely we can agree that influence from a foreign nation that doesn't have our best interest in minds is not a good influence.

I'm far more worried about Google. Google is practically unavoidable, and has connections to US Intelligence who can actually harm me. I've never used TikTok, and if I had it's not like the CCP can do anything to me anyway so I wouldn't care as much.

> it's not like the CCP can do anything to me anyway so I wouldn't care as much.

Why do you think this is true? Do you not believe that foreign entities attempt to influence adversaries?

To flip your statement on its head, I (as a US/Western citizen) can influence Google, which influences the US/Western world. (I can protest Google, I can elect representatives that will go after them, etc. We've even seen this done) But as an American I cannot influence the CCP which also influences the US/Western world.

(You should also consider that the connections that Google has to US intelligence is not akin to the connections that TikTok has to the CCP. The latter is much more direct)

>Why do you think this is true? Do you not believe that foreign entities attempt to influence adversaries?

Do you honestly think China uses more propaganda on American than the US government does on its own people? Meanwhile, Google literally controls the flow of information, while knowing your location and browser history.

> You should also consider that the connections that Google has to US intelligence is not akin to the connections that TikTok has to the CCP. The latter is much more direct

Doubtful. Google is US intelligence.

> Do you honestly think China uses more propaganda on American than the US government does on its own people?

That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing if China uses propaganda on American population. That's it. You don't have to make it a competition. You don't have to move the goal post.

> Meanwhile, Google literally controls the flow of information, while knowing your location and browser history.

I don't think anyone complaining about TikTok's influence also isn't actively complaining about Google's influence. You can check my comment history if you don't believe me. You can even see how much I advocate for tools like Signal. Don't create a false dichotomy.

> Google is influenced by many intelligence agencies from many different countries but mostly the US.

FTFY

What goalpost? All these companies are using the same manipulation techniques.

All have extraordinary disregard for their users.

All have nothing to gain from changing a thing.

I use the same shoes as Usain Bolt but somehow he runs faster than me. Maybe you can help me figure out why.

How does Apple allow the use of keyloggers with in-app browsers? That sounds like something they could easily say no to.

Not sure tbh. But this was a not to old HN post that uncovered this. So potentially the reasoning is because it was unknown.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32520450

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32514793

it really is just the foreign aspect of it. the meta apps, google apps, uber, etc all do the exact same things. They just aren't owned by a foreign nation

they're also not as inherently addictive. TikTok is the best drug in town, nobody does it better. can't get my fiancée off the damn thing

Instagram wasn't much different back when it was a new thing. I don't remember Facebooks launch that good, but somehow I have an impression that it was just as addictive, until people got used to it and got bored.

have you used both? Instagram has improved over the years but TikTok still blows it away. it's an infinite feed of visually attractive bullshit that you can scroll through smooth as butter—the ultimate cyberdrug.

I think this is rather naive. I agree that the foreign aspect is an important component but let's also recognize that TikTok's success is because they are so successful at this data collection and manipulation. There's two reasons to target TikTok specifically. 1) Foreign influence 2) they are top dog.

Let's also recognize that Uber is not collecting data on what you watch and what social activities you participate in. Google and Meta are much better examples than Uber. But Google and Meta have also not captivated the attention economy of people the same way as TikTok has. You go after the worst offenders and it is clear that TikTok is the worst offender before you include the foreign aspect.

> But Google and Meta have also not captivated the attention economy of people the same way as TikTok has. You go after the worst offenders and it is clear that TikTok is the worst offender before you include the foreign aspect.

How is it "clear"? TikToks functionality in this matter seems to have barely scratched the surface of what Meta, Google and Twitter had been doing for years.

>Let's also recognize that Uber is not collecting data on what you watch and what social activities you participate in

sure about that? How about these "social activities"

https://money.cnn.com/2014/11/25/technology/uber-prostitutes...

For most of us, they (Meta, Google, Tik Tok) are all foreign.

Meta, google, uber, etc should be considered equivalent to hostile foreign powers and there are 194 countries in which they report to foreign intelligence service.

I would be more comfortable with all that collection if it remained in China, a far away government that has much less control over me than my own. However, the data they collect is shared with and used by the same domestic corporations and government agencies.

What a naive thinking. Of course China has control over you through TikTok. What if they will modify an algorithm to make you vote for right people that they want you to vote? You’d think that they don’t have any control over you when in fact you’ll be used as their useful idiot

I am not a product of any corporate or government controlled social media. However if I had to be one, being influenced by China rather than US corporations seems better. The two US parties have no substantive difference on economic and foreign policy. So I can't see why the CCP would care which one wins which election.

Spoken like a perfect, useful idiot...

We are all useful idiots to different extent in this system. I have become less useful and less idiotic as I have grown wiser. I am less worried about Chinese propaganda and manipulation than the domestic sort which is much more powerful and impacting to my life.

Why not both?

>The two US parties have no substantive difference on economic and foreign policy

.............. what.

I can't believe how wrong that statement is:

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2016/6...

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/democrats-vs-republicans-whi...

https://thehill.com/policy/international/516856-republicans-...

Yeah, better to be influenced by Chineese, then start to belive what you see, then start to think how they want you to think, and then vote for people they want you to vote. Perfect useful idiot, congratulations.

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