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Comment by WastingMyTime89 | Hacker News Reader

It’s a lot more complicated to be honest.

There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were in favour of pushing for peace talks far earlier but the current Ukrainian government has complete support from the USA and territorial ambition of its own.

Belligerents are not into it out of the goodness of their heart you know. It’s not really about saving Ukrainian lives. It’s actually far from obvious that prolonging the war saves lives. But most of the EU has taken a very Atlantist position on this conflict and at this point it’s probably better to keep going and significantly neuter Russia.

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The longer is the war the higher is the risk for the local population on occupied territories. Not only because of filtration and direct oppression by security forces, but also because of reduced access to healthcare and basic necessities like food, heating, drinking water etc. The winter is coming and the infrastructure in many cities and villages is completely destroyed. Russia does not demonstrate any intent to rebuild it in next few months.

EDIT: „the longer is occupation..“ will be more correct. This is an incentive for liberation more than for negotiation.

Peace talks earlier would maybe have saved lives, but what kind of life is it living under Russian rule?

Russia is deteriorating and is apparently trying to solve it with conquest. Giving in would be like telling the police to don't disturb the mob when doing extortion, someone might get killed.

Peace talks before Russia is pushed back at least to Ukraine's post-2014 borders is basically a victory for Russia, and we would have this conversation again in 5-10 years.

Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea.

I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population.

I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of good and evil with a single acceptable outcome and where anything short of total support for one side to keep fighting is seen as wrong.

Ukrainians in occupied territories seem to get murdered, tortured and raped. So yeah I think it’s fair to say they’d be better off without the Russians.

It’s a war. What did you expect exactly?

Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs.

You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.

1. You're contradicting yourself: in your third point, you say that I shouldn't trust that civilians are getting murdered, raped and tortured. But in your first point, you say that I should be expecting such behavior.

2. I'd expect there to not be a war to begin with. Russia 100% controls this, and can stop whenever they want.

3. War doesn't have to be done in the most brutal way possible.

4. "the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual" I don't understand what this means.

I'm getting very strong pro-Russian vibes from your comments. Not going to reply anymore -- real people are dying.

I never said that you shouldn’t trust that civilians are being raped, tortured and murdered. They most definitely are. That’s the reality of war. It’s always brutal. There is no such thing as a clean war.

I said focusing on that makes you analysing conflicts poorly and expose you to be manipulated. I am most definitely not pro-Russian. I am very much pro the interests of my own country first however.

Any outcome that doesn't discourage Russia from just trying again is obviously bad for the Ukrainian population in the long run. Peace talks before serious Ukranian progress at retaking Crimea would also just be a repetition of previous attempts to resolve the issue and appease Ukraine and the West while pursuing a completely different agenda.

Discouraging Russia and retaking Crimea are unrelated goals.

I don’t foresee Ukraine getting back Crimea ending well for the population of Crimea. Let’s not forget Crimea has tried to be independent since 1991 and Ukraine had to send its army there in 1995. I don’t think a peaceful reintegration is possible.

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