Hacker News Reader

Before anything else, getting buy-in for any kind of major change from the execs is key. Explain the situation and the effects. Have everything in writing, complete with date and signatures. Push back hard every time this commitment gets sabotaged because something is supposedly on fire. Get a guaranteed budget for external trainings and workshops, again in writing. Then talk to the team.

If you cannot get those commitments in writing, or later on get ignored multiple times: run. Your energy and sanity is better spent elsewhere. No need to fight an uphill battle alone – and for what? The company just revealed itself for what it is and you have no future there.

First I’d do that, then think about the engineering part.

"Have everything in writing, complete with date and signatures"

It is possible that the executives won't take it well to all of the formality here (writing and signatures). How would you convince them that this is necessary?

Dates and signatures are theatrical overkill.

I've yet to work at a place where meeting minutes, sent out to all attendees post-meeting, aren't sufficient for the same purpose (ass covering & continued adherence to The Plan as originally agreed).

I'm sure signature and date places do exist... but, I'd probably be looking for a new job if I worked at one.

"Have everything in writing" is a bad mindset and is not going to save you.

Exeutives are looking at you as the expert to deliver a good outcome. Which means making good decisions, managing expectations and keeping everyone in the loop.

Generally, if it gets to the point of having to dig up who signed off on what, you've already failed. Often you won't even get the chance to dig up those emails, because delivering a bad outcome is enough for execs to write you off without even needing to hear your excuses.

> because delivering a bad outcome is enough for execs to write you off without even needing to hear your excuses.

What makes you think they are excuses? Constantly chasing moving targets and not having even one of them agreed upon in writing is heaven for bad execs. I've seen it happen a good amount of times, my colleagues too.

I don't view the "you changed requirements 20 times the last month and I can't keep up with your impossible imagined schedule" statement as an excuse.

If the goal is to remove bad execs, then a document trail can help, although I'd suggest starting with some statistics like "over the last 3 months, we moved the goalpost 8 times, which led to an effective throughput of 4 weeks of work being done rather than the expected 12 weeks. How do you think we could improve these conditions?" Collaboration first.

Keeping email threads for reference is probably plenty data enough, btw; "signatures" sounds like the wrong approach. Maybe even just summarize the direction given in a wiki document with a change log with time stamps and requesting person, which you can review once in a while, and the sheer length of it might be enough to bring the point across.

Thank you -- good advice to put collaboration first. I sometimes have a problem that I assume the worst right away. But I've met some true villains in my life and career so maybe that's why. I'll do my best to implement your advice.

> and the sheer length of it might be enough to bring the point across.

This one sadly hasn't been true -- I tried it but I get blank stares and sometimes grumbling about making people read long stuff that I can just summarize to them. Maybe there's a way out of this conundrum as well.

Your job is to deliver what the execs consider to be a good outcome.

That includes helping the stakeholders come up with a stable set of requirements. Most of the time when teams are dealing with a lot of requirements change, it's because they never captured the true requirements which usually change at a much slower rate.

Secondly, your job is also to manage expectations, so that execs know what the impact of any changes will be when they request them.

Changes aren't an excuse to deliver late or over budget. These parameters are flexible and new targets should have been agreed when the requirements change was requested.

Execs will usually assess your performance without discussion. There is no venue to bring your cache of documents to prove your innocence after the fact.

We all know the ideal theory. I am talking execs that constantly change requirements, refuse to sign under any stable requirements, and think everything is "quick and easy", and take offense when you try to manage their expectations.

Reasonable people I easily work with. It's the rest who are the problem.

Sounds like you haven't worked in an environment where this happens. You get regarded as 'the expert to deliver a good outcome' sure. But you're ALSO expected to deliver an aggressive roadmap of a while load of other stuff that people already committed to. Someone's something's got to give

The dates and signatures bit is nonsense, but it does help to have things in writing to ensure everyone's on the same page. That just means that when you're discussing things not in writing, you send a written follow up to everyone that's involved immediately afterwards. If it's a meeting, take detailed notes and send them around afterwards. If it's a one on one conversation, just send a follow up email that says something like, "Hi x, I just wanted to memorialize our conversation - here are the main notes that I took. Please let me know if any of this sounds off to you. Thank you."

That doesn't preclude them from not reading that email and later telling you they said something completely different, but at that point you should probably be heading for the door anyway.

Having stuff in writing is essential, for accountability on all sides. The exact format does not matter, neither does what passes as a signature in a company. My example was for broadest possible applicability. The point is the willingness to commit to something in writing and to take the time to reflect on the implications of doing so. If you cannot get that, you’ve already lost. There will be moving targets.

It’s interesting to see how all responses focus on the signature part as problematic due to its supposed formality. Is this an American work culture thing? I see signing off on an agreement as a signal of professional conduct and reliability.

To be fair if I was an exec at a company and the new IT lead wants me to commit, in writing, to XYZ, I’d not keep them around long. You can’t run a company on that kind of deep mistrust.

Nothing in the OP suggests abusive management. Incompetence, maybe, but I see no reason to assume that they’ll backtrack on agreements, and a new management hire who immediately starts sewing mistrusts is not someone I’d trust to get things to a higher level.

> You can’t run a company on that kind of deep mistrust.

Trust has to be earned in some ways (but you can expect some base-level). But I want to argue on another point: as an exec, you can use this kind of writing to also get commitment from the team, to balance things out. But ofc for that there needs to be a fair discussion of priorities and once you have that, there is usually no reason to contractify the outcome.

>if I was an exec at a company and the new IT lead wants me to commit, in writing, to XYZ, I’d not keep them around long. You can’t run a company on that kind of deep mistrust.

Emails are writing, if you're imagining the IT lead walking in with a paper contract I see why you would say that.

That's essentially what the GP was implying, "Have everything in writing, complete with date and signatures."

That’s what a proposal is too, it’s not necessarily a demand

That's fair. I've worked at more established places with formal design doc/RFC and sign off processes and it can work well.

After reading the description of the SOP at this shop, the idea that the OP would be able to introduce an additional layer of process requiring multiple stakeholders and management seemed like a bridge too far in my mind :).

Nowhere were contracts mentioned. A proper proposal, for example, always has a date and to sign it if agreed to is just professional conduct. I’d be wary of any exec not willing to do that. Instant red flag.

Clearly you've been in a very positive bubble. I envy you but that's not an experience shared by many.

As a programmer contractor and a guy who sometimes gets called to save small businesses due to stalled development (happened 6 times in my 20y career) I'm absolutely not even opening my laptop anymore -- before I see a written commitment from execs (email is enough; I tag/label those and make sure I can easily find them in the future).

Reasons are extremely simple and self-defensive in nature: execs can and do backtrack from agreements all the time. At the time we arrive in an oral agreement they made 20 other invisible assumptions they never told me about and when one of them turns out to be not true (example: they thought you can get onboarded in 2 days into a system with 5000+ source files and be productive as a full-blown team member on day #3) they start backtracking faster than you can say "that's not professional".

I don't dispute your positive experience. But please be aware that it's not the norm. Most execs out there treat programmers as slaves with big salaries and nothing more, and we get exactly the treatment you might expect when they have that mindset.

Sorry not sorry but I have to save my own arse first; I've been bound to extremely awful contracts when I've been much younger and stupider and I am not allowing that ever again.

I can single-handedly make a business succeed with technology, and I have done so. I am not staying anywhere where execs hand-away everything with "should be simple and quick, right? k thx bye".

Thanks, that’s what I was aiming for. It’s kind of a litmus test what kind of professionalism you can expect in a place – if any. Especially when they have shown prior incompetence, as in OP’s example.

In all honesty, given that example, if I didn’t get immediate buy-in, I’d throw the towel right then. Over 15 years of experience show that train wrecks only ever get fixed when they are recognized as such from the start.

Do leads not write proposals or RFCs? I’m not sure why you wouldn’t keep them around long if they laid out their plans in a clear way, and then pitched it to others

> But this often fails because when Friday comes, something is on fire and management asks to please quickly squeeze this one thing in first.

There's a solution to this problem: nothing goes live on Fridays.

> and making the code touched by that change better.

Getting buy-in from management on this always appeared to me as weird. The alternative is a codebase that can only ever get worse over time. So you either gotta gold plate everything, which will take way longer than allowing for some after-the-fact improvement as needed, or your codebase turns into a pile of shit very quickly and your velocity grinds to a halt very quickly.

> Getting buy-in from management on this always appeared to me as weird. The alternative is a codebase that can only ever get worse over time.

Well that's just the thing: they have no notion of a "bad code base". To them that's an excuse and a negotiation leverage by the programmer to ask for more money. They judge others by themselves I guess.

It just feels like an amateur hour thing.

If my plumber came to me to ask if he can just dry assemble the pipes and leave them that way I'm gonna get a new plumber.

It's scary out there, man. A lot of people in HN judge by US companies and startups but I've only been in that bubble once for a few months and the rest of my 20 years of career has been everywhere else. And it's insanely bad in many places.

That’s assuming you know something about plumbing. If you don’t, you’ll just nod your head and say ok, that sounds good. The same thing is happening in these businesses. The business owners generally don’t know programming. Terms like “refactoring” mean nothing to them at best and sounds like “rewrite from scratch” at worst.

Do not waste time with a company that is going to collapse unless they are willing to do whatever it takes.

They are going to collapse making 20M a year, sure.

Revenue is not profit

Not the team’s manager. OP says so in the first line.