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Comment by herbst | Hacker News Reader

I think people who use Windows don't even realize how the OS slowly get more distracting over time, making people used to all this.

I am always amazed on how passively and non annoyed people click away all these virus scanner and whatever popups popping up whatever you are doing.

Sure I may be biased, I get aggressions when YouTube forces a second ad. And my brain was turned upside down when I realized smart TVs introduced smart ads that may take 20% of the screen, whenever and people still don't seem to care.

I am so glad I live behind a pihole in a Linux only network, without 'normal' TV. I am sure I see at least 95% less ads than my average peers.

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My switch to macOS coincided with Windows 8 starting to gain traction and most people still used 7 or even XP. My expectations are thus stuck where they were with Windows 7, which is the last version I used a my main OS.

Now imagine the horror every time I have to do something on modern Windows. There was a period when I worked on a cross-platform library, which I sometimes had to build and test on Windows. It took me quite much effort to get my Windows 10 VM into an annoyance-free configuration — that included uninstalling stuff like Microsoft Store and Edge, too. And that's me, a guy who knows what he's doing, most of the time.

There are two things that blow my mind: how much user-hostile most of mainstream software products have become, and how much people are willing to tolerate that. "That's just what computers are like."

And yes, I do know some people who still use Windows 7. And I also wonder if it's possible to run Windows 7 userspace on top of the Windows 10 kernel.

The last time I actually used Windows without just experimenting or building in a VM was also 7. For the very same reasons.

I was a Linux user as long as I understand computers, so doing the switch from Windows to MacOS for work gave me no relief either. Still a locked down OS with weird quirks. But something they really did right is building a distraction free working environment. Literally the one thing I want from a working computer.

I used to love 7 back in the day but Windows 11 is a much more polished and far superior experience for entertainment, productivity and development with WSL2 than 7 was and better than 10 is.

Other than rose tinted nostalgia I can't imagine going back to a dated, insecure and inferior OS.

Last time I checked, Windows 11's UI is as ruined by the existence of touchscreens as it's ever been since 8. There are also ads in the taskbar. There are also all the Edge shenanigans. There are also updates that know better than you do what you want (that "sane configuration" for that Windows 10 VM actually included disabling all update-related services).

Windows 7 was the last properly-desktop version of Windows.

Does Apple also ruin the UI on macOS? Yes, absolutely. But they still don't do it that much, and they actually officially acknowledge that someone might have reasons to stay on an old version — they provide security updates for 2 additional years for all old versions. They also understand that people use computers to get jobs done and thus are not to be interrupted with sudden "let's cross this one out of your list" modals.

In an ideal world though, an OS doesn't need updating at all and has zero vulnerabilities. But I guess just hold the f up and stop with your endless feature creep and focus all your engineering on fixing your shit is too much to ask from the modern IT industry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> how much user-hostile most of mainstream software products have become, and how much people are willing to tolerate that

Yeah. Software isn't about us users anymore. It's about corporations, their needs, their profits, their rights, their platforms, their everything. We're just incidental. It's getting worse every year and it feels like there's no end in sight.

Stallman warned everyone about this and very few people cared. Free software exists to combat this but there's increasingly no point since the hardware itself is becoming hostile. What's the point of free software if we can't run it?

I just feel so hopeless about all this. Computers had such potential. To see them reduced to advertising appliances is just sad.

It really depends how you operate Windows. Almost every misbehavior has a way to turn it off, it's just a matter of finding it. Also, people need to use Firefox. With Firefox's tracking prevention, at this point my Pihole barely gets a workout. I reimplemented it recently on my network and it barely did anything, I am already controlling most of it at the PC or browser level.

I don't think that counts if you either need questionable third party tools (usually also coming with ads) or extensive knowledge of the operating system to switch of this 'misbehaviour'. My mum is not able to operate Windows without ad and in-os-spam issues.

Pi-Hole is only good for what it does. You have full control (and overview) what your network is requesting and can block everything you don't need. The way I use it it takes time to operate. Like blocking most of whatever IoT devices are doing works like charm. Or whatever my smartTV was sending every other hour for no reason.

It doesn't block ads that are served on the same domains as the content, obviously. (Youtube, Twitch, ...) Only the client can filter those.

> Also, people need to use Firefox

I would, if Firefox would stop deteriorating. They are down to miniscule marketshare and continue redesigning their GUI, disabling features, preventing ad-blocking, launching pointless annoying services. Firefox of 2014 was a far better product than Firefox of 2022.

While I too mourn how Firefox has fared, it's still leaps and bounds better than using Chrome. Edge is maybe an acceptable alternative to Firefox, at least regarding tracking prevention, but you then have to deal with bull$&@? like what this post is about.

I have not had that experience, generally I don’t see ads thanks to adblockers, and the platform just works and supports almost 100% of all apps. It is also fast, and I’m sure Linux could be faster but I feel it’s lacking features and support for most games and software that I use (making it easy to see why it could run faster).

If anything pops up on my screen that I didn't explicitly consent to for that time (i.e. reminder, downtime notifications) I consider that an ad. Software asking for an update while I didn't explicitly open it = same shit.

In other words every distraction that tries to get my attention that I haven't asked for is something I consider very very annoying.

> I think people who use Windows don't even realize how the OS slowly get more distracting over time, making people used to all this.

I for one realize. But i am forced to use it by my employer. And the fact that MS seems to be the only platform where CAD/CAE programs run, does not help either. I don't know what corporate IT is doing but they seem not to be bothered.

> I think people who use Windows don't even realize how the OS slowly get more distracting over time, making people used to all this. I am always amazed on how passively and non annoyed people click away all these virus scanner and whatever popups popping up whatever you are doing.

Personally I'm more amazed that there are people this actually happens to.

I run Windows 11. I've also got an M1 Air and a Linux box so am not blind to the alternatives or particularly biased. And I have to say that's not my experience at all.

I'll admit that upon installation I removed the start menu apps Microsoft seemed to think I'd want, and I run uBlock Origin in the browser. Other than it's an out-of-the-box install of 11 Pro and I see no adverts, no irritating cross-selling, nothing getting in my way. Windows just works and lets me get on with things.

What is it people do that gets their machines into such a state? Or am I just more careful than most without even realising? Either way as long you're sensible Windows is totally fine.

I think people care a lot more than we think. They just assume they have no choice in the matter. I install uBlock Origin on every browser I get my hands on and every single time people start commenting on how the web has inexplicably improved. "Everything is so much nicer now, I can't even explain why." The approval is universal and people are a lot happier when they don't have to mentally process advertiser noise.

A better world without advertising is perfectly possible. People have simply been conditioned to accept this reality. There needs to be new ways of thinking about advertising. I consider it a form of violence, mind rape.

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