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Comment by frankdejonge | Hacker News Reader

In the Netherlands, countersteering is part of any motorbike practical exam. This is not standard in a lot of companies, but it is such an essential skill. It literally saves lives.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "it literally saves lives". Anyone who rides a single-track vehicle will instinctively do it any time they turn. Do you mean that having a more conscious relationship with how you countersteer when turning can help keep control in particularly difficult turns?

I really feel like when a motorcycle is travelling at greater than 30 40 or 50 kph, countersteering is the only way to steer. But doing it subconsciously and doing it with knowledge on the subject are 2 different feelings.

>Anyone who rides a single-track vehicle will instinctively do it any time they turn.

I've seen videos that suggest otherwise. Not linking it, since the last time I did, I got downvoted to hell and back for it.

You can't turn a bicycle or motorbike without counter-steering, so these people are just not turning their bikes? It's not possible to not countersteer as the bike would lean to the wrong direction and you'd turn the wrong way (since you'd have been initiating a countersteer, afterall). Are you seeing people just manhandle the bars the wrong way in emergencies? I could believe that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac

That's exactly it. Countersteering is a learned behavior that people aren't aware they do. They will describe it as leaning into the turn or whatever. Then, when they are in an emergency and need a tighter turning radius, they instinctively put in the wrong input and the bike straightens up. Explicitly teaching countersteering helps teach them to respond to emergencies with the correct input.

I have been riding a bicycle all my life, so I suppose that I was counter steering unconsciously. I recently started riding a motorcycle and the experience is quite a bit different because it takes force and conscious effort to turn the bars on a machine weighing several hundred pounds. I think that people try to turn with their bodyweight instead of steering inputs if they don't know any better.

I’m not sure what motorcycle you have, but when steering properly most I have owned have been effortless to turn when “pressing”. (That being said I had a 1981 XS400 that someone had put some pretty silly bars on that felt like a jumping rock to turn)

It's effortless on a motorbike. On a bike it's effortless squared, a near-undetectable planck-scale force on a handle, or just a body action.

When entering the turn - maybe.

It's different when a novice is already progressing through a long turn and suddenly needs to tighten (obstacle or overshoot). They already feel less safe as soon as the bike is at an angle, and have instinctive tendency to begin straightening it up at even the slightest provocation. This instinct will 99% win with the undeveloped/unconscious countersteering instinct. (What? Point my handlebar at the obstacle?!) So, yes, training it could save their life.

How does this happen? In the U.S. we have the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) which teaches a basic motorcycle riding course, and can give you a certificate for a motorcycle endorsement on your state license. One of their only prerequisites for the course is that you can ride a bicycle, because it guarantees the rider understands countersteering at low speeds before getting anywhere near a motorcycle.

The MSF isn't mandatory though is it? Also, statistics suggest a lot of the motorcyclists who get killed are doing it without a license anyway (or registered bike, or helmet...).

It is for some states. I know here in Texas it is.

I don't think it is in Illinois, although the state sends people to MSF class "graduations" to do official tests.

In EU motorbikes fall under a different license then cars, so it involves both practical and theoretical test. What I know from the Swedish licenses is that the motorbike one is considered the more difficult test to pass.

There is a "high speed" slalom course you have to do as part of the test and it's impossible to do it without counter steering through it.

Its impossible to steer a bike without countersteering. The speed is irrelevant.

In France we learn about it, and the exam has a low speed and high speed test. The high speed test ends with either an emergency stop or an obstacle avoidance (simulates a pedestrian crossing right in front of the motorbike for example, the maneuver requires countersteering.)

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