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Comment by stewx | Hacker News Reader

For an example of this, see this story about Canadian professor and laser scientist Patanjali Kambhampati who was denied for grants because his avowed commitment to mere non-discrimination and merit-based hiring was deemed insufficient.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/minority-professor-deni...

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Is that a numbers game? How many people don't get jobs because of the "wrong" skin color? They don't get famous too, that's why no news site brings an article about them.

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/harrison_matthew_s_200512_ms....

I'd agree that those sorts of outcomes are just as bad as ignoring the problems of internalised systemic biases towards particular sexes, age groups, racial backgrounds or lack of obvious but irrelevant physical disabilities. We may not have found the best way to ensure that a 60yo black, wheelchair-bound woman is just as likely to be chosen on merit as a 30yo white able-bodied man yet but it doesn't seem we shouldn't keep trying.

I don't see a problem with this, especially if part of the mission of the folks giving the grant is to create opportunities for under-represented people.

"If I want to focus on merit, fairness and equality, then you get called out as racist or sexist."

I'm still waiting for an example where someone can actually vet people based on merit, fairness and equality without any of their own unconscious biases being a factor. Humans are most comfortable with people that think, look, and act like them. No matter how hard they try, it skews their thinking at times.

>I'm still waiting for an example where someone can actually vet people based on merit, fairness and equality without any of their own unconscious biases being a factor

Blind auditions for orchestras.

And the pendulum has swung so far back I can recall reading "diversity" advocates trying to remove them in the last few years for being insufficiently equitable.

I didn't realize this was a thing till I read it.

nytimes [0]: "To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions"

[0]: https://archive.ph/kCb9N

One of the arguments given really bugs me:

> A typical orchestral audition might end up attracting dozens of people who are essentially indistinguishable in their musicianship and technique.

Then raise the bar. Why are we content that more people can achieve the top tier of any field? If leaders of a field cannot find ways to evaluate newcomers, then replace them with new leaders and techniques that can. What a lazy excuse.

This feels to me like an example of Goodhart's law:

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

Yep. Toronto eliminated all skill-based admission requirements for specialized arts, athletics, science and math programs and turned them into a lottery process for admission because it's more equitable.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/05/24/tdsb-votes-to-re...

You deliberately withhold any irrelevant information, like their race or gender, from people making the decision.

But, well, we've seen what happened when ElectronConf tried that.

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