We should link student loan forgiveness to national service | Hacker News Reader

We should link student loan forgiveness to national service

thehill.com

11 pointsRickJWagner31 comments

The article somehow doesn't mention ROTC, which is a much bigger commitment but can pay for all 4 years of school. Feels like a missed opportunity at the very least.

My main gripe with student loan forgiveness is that it addresses the symptom rather than the issue itself of college being too damn expensive. National military service at least helps pay for college, though doesn't leave many options for those who are unable or unwilling to join the armed forces.

The article only briefly mentions it but I've always thought the idea of non-military national service was interesting. Not necessarily a good idea depending on implementation details, but an interesting one nonetheless.

It's not just colleges being too expensive. It's also industries inflating educational requirements as an underlying factor for increased college costs. Experience is also undervalue relative to educational requirements. Quintessentially does x job require y education that could not be learned on the job or through experience?

Granted these are broad statements that cannot completely generalized but it seems to be a trend.

Making college accessible will make the fact that businesses require it less problematic, as well.

No. This would again be a significant advantage for students from wealthy families who could opt out of the service by paying up...

Just get rid of the outrageous US tuition fees like civilized countries in Europe.

I’m in favor of that if we also get rid of outrageous university bloat and frills like civilized countries in Europe.

Advantages are the point of being wealthy.

Not punishing poor kids for having poor parents would be a huge moral hazard.

If i'm not falling victim to Poe's law, I'm going to need further elucidation here, as that sounds an awful lot like punishing the child for the sins of the parent there.

You can't seriously believe that is a tenable/desirable state of affairs?

I believe that you are correct about Poe's, the comment was sarcasm.

Getting rid of the outrageous tuition fees would mean laying off hundreds of administrative staff at every single university. Now you’ve got cheap tuition but hundreds of thousands of unemployed people. What do you do about that? Sounds like a political nightmare.

Maybe the universities should teach them to code or something...

If these universities survive and operate without this staff, I see no reason not to fire them. Clearly they are not doing productive work and I don't believe in supporting such work.

What makes you think that the universities can survive without the current staffing levels? I assure you that with the maze of current funding structures, reporting requirements, travel planning, visa work, unfunded government mandates, etc., they cannot. The only way that they could survive is if the entire structure, and many laws changed. The unfortunate problem with that is then all US universities wouldn't be able to be the best in the world. Top US Universities wouldn't' be able to bring in the best from around the world, research at Universities would dwindle to a fraction of the current amount. Communication and knowledge sharing between peers at other institutions would shrink. The same people who currently complain loudest about the price of university would howl the loudest and diversity and inclusion offices closed at universities. Student amenities would be stripped. Funding for student mental health would drop. The list goes on and on.

Nah, the total number isn't enough to matter. There are over 1 million truck drivers alone, so they would be able to absorb them without too much trouble.

> This would again be a significant advantage for students from wealthy families who could opt out of the service by paying up...

Or when those wealthy families take a chance to build a business that goes wrong, they just file for debt forgiveness.

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 of the United States Constitution authorizes Congress to enact “Uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States.” It provides that Congress shall enact bankruptcy laws to allow Americans to exercise their bankruptcy rights. So filing for bankruptcy relief is your constitutional right, specifically guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.

Students should just file for debt forgiveness too.

That part of the constitution says "Congress shall have the power..." and does not bestow a right to bankruptcy. It just says congress may if they choose create a law bestowing such a right because they have the power to pass such a law.

...only if PPP loan forgiveness was also tied to national service.

A foolish article. The military has a lot of programs to try and snag bright and ambitious young people using free tuition as a lure.

Question. If you’re a young bright person, are you going to sign up to spend 4 years on a nuclear submarine for free tuition, or will you go to college, take the loans, and search for a high paying career knowing that if it doesn’t pan out you can just fall back on the military to pay off the loans?

Adding to this the military have always been really good about leaving out important details about that tuition. An example would be the GI Bill. One has 10 years to use that funding once they leave active duty. By the time people learn about this it is usually too late.

The 10 year thing isn't exactly correct, but also depends on which GI bill and when you left service. The Montgomery GI bill had the 10 year limit but I don't even know if that can be signed up for anymore. Everyone I knew of at the time converted to the post 9/11 GI bill, which has a 15 year limit. There is the possibility for an extension. Also in 2017 a bill was past removing the 15 year limit depending on when you left service. I recently was looking into this because I thought I had a 10 year limit but I apparently have five more years. I'll be looking into college enrollment pretty soon.

https://www.va.gov/resources/getting-a-gi-bill-extension/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_GI_Bill

Nice that the options have evolved and added options for extensions and removing some limits. I served a long time ago and vested in the Montgomery GI bill. I suppose the only thing left would be to improve communication around the limits in boot camp if they have not done so already.

It's not that often that I see proposals of debt servitude seriously put forward in the mainstream media, this is one of them.

Some other thinkpieces of similar value

"We should link generational wealth to national service"

"We should wire up SkyNet's power button to national service"

"Pogger's Game: Reinventing e-sports for national service"

"Service guarantees citizenship"

It's seemed pretty obvious to me that the military's recruitment issues are just because young people morally object to it. I (25) grew up in the shadow of 9/11, seeing the US invade other countries on false premises for oil, somehow that didn't motivate me to serve. Then you combine that with growing awareness for how inadequate veteran services are, and how you're essentially abused as a military member even if you don't see combat. Why would I join an organization that goes against my morals, is more likely than not to give me PTSD, and then when it's all done all I get is a lifetime of untreated mental illness along with 4 years of "free" college?

Almost everyone I know my age who's joined either did it to escape poverty or because they come from a military family. I think any kind of perks are only band-aids on a collapsing militarized nation.

>Such a program would incorporate not just military service — which would remain voluntary — but also real programs that meet real needs that we all could value. It could include, for example, environmental conservation work, pre-K assistance in schools, and senior citizen companionship.

Although it spends a lot of time discussing the military, "national service" != "military service." There are plenty of entry level government jobs these people could fill.

Those who default on their student loans yet fail to teport for duty may be considered AWOL and subject to military arrest and punishment.

That seems bad somehow.

“If you boys and girls had to sweat for your toys the way a newly born baby has to struggle to live you would be happier . . . and much richer. As it is, with some of you, I pity the poverty of your wealth.” ― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

Wrong order to do it in - those already with student loans have more complicated lives 'now' versus the period of their life between high school and post-secondary where the national service would best take place, in theory.

OH this 100000%. While the US is at it we should honestly consider quadrupling our military budget. Just the idea of a Raytheon CEO not getting his bonus brings a tear to my eye.

Is it just me, or does that website is surprisingly well aligned with Russian government when it comes to ideas on ruling a country?

Nope. Just nope.

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