I think offices are more and more going to become an out of home workspace for people who prefer them (and I think we should give everyone who can commit to coming in enough an actual office) ... and an occasional collaboration hub for everyone.
I think offices are more and more going to become an out of home workspace for people who prefer them (and I think we should give everyone who can commit to coming in enough an actual office) ... and an occasional collaboration hub for everyone.
Seven years and counting for me, and likewise proud. I have found it a good experience, on balance. I have witnessed -- and been subjected to -- behavior by individuals that people would reasonably consider "toxic", and I've been fortunate to have avoided long-term impact. I do what I can to fight it where I find it.
To the point of remote work, I've been primarily remote the whole time, and it's worked out well. If enforced RTO ever does happen (I don't expect it to), I'll have a decision to make, is all.
Your proud of what ? Worker exploitation ? The people in fulfilment centres are also employed by Amazon. They’re your peers. If I worked for a company where my peers are treated like dirt, I wouldn’t be proud of it. I’d quit.
While I am critical of many things Amazon does, what I see in the media about AWS is usually laughably false. We aren't all in broken marriages due to on-call duty.
The stories I read about drivers urinating in their pants because they have too many deliveries scheduled simply does not reflect the behavior I've seen from drivers in my area (I ride a bike everywhere, Amazon drivers are noticeably bike friendly in a way that makes me think they aren't under pants-urinating pressure).
So when I see stories about the FCs, I assume the same. I guess I am biased towards thinking the media focuses on the negative and totally ignores anything good. So... yea I guess I "don't see" all the bad things. Still pro union... but treated like dirt is probably a little far.
[edit, have worked for aws for about 5.5 years]
You're obviously seeing what you want to see, and that's OK, just don't try push it onto others.
The context I made my comment was in regards to people saying "Amazon is awesome, I've worked there for 14 years.". I don't really see why warehouse workers shouldn't feel awesome too. If it's really a great company, they should feel pretty awesome.
tl;dr I don't believe Amazon is an awesome company based on how I see it treat lower skill workers, people who think it's awesome probably only feel like that because they're needed, as soon as you can be replaced by someone cheaper, you will be.
News alert: I bet your company would replace you with someone cheaper also.
Does anyone really know how a large company like Amazon operates?
I've certainly worked for multinational companies before. One of our C levels even palled around with Jeffery Epstein.
How many people toil away in factories “working” for Apple creating iPhones or “working” for Google creating their servers and phones. Or is it morally better since they are outsourced?
When they got bought out for 10x revenue (I had already left), the founders gave each of the employees an extra bonus and they reached out to a former employee who had been there for years and gave him a bonus on top of the options he exercised - they had no legal obligation to do so.
But, they didn’t and couldn’t give me the 50% bump in compensation I make now and working remotely (permanently).
There are a significant amount of people who disagree with you (on blind, with amazon proof of employment). They would be in the non-survivor-bias group.
I recently rejected an offer from AWS that paid significantly more that what i currently make because of this. I have family that work there ( on visa) that were adamant that i keep looking and not accept the offer. I am wondering if i made the right decision, haha.
Does aws have a higher churn rate than a typical tech company?
My conclusions:
1. Amazon's internal beurocracy enables good teams to be very good, and bad teams to be very bad
2. However, there is significant internal mobility, so you can move if you get stuck on a bad team
3. WFH policy is effectively left up to each individual team, so that is something to probe about during the interview
4. Everybody at Amazon is in the on-call rotation, but on-call load varies significantly by team (I know someone working on an internal tool that has literally never gotten paged)
5. Churn is roughly 6%, as that is what the infamous URA target is set to; however, you'd be surprised how many incompetent people make it past even FAANG interviews, so I wouldn't particularly worry if you're good at your job and your boss isn't an asshole
Overall, I would describe Amazon as a relatively good place to work on average, but the people that have it bad have it really really bad, and hopefully they can switch to a good team.
- abuses its market position to run competitors out of business
- mistreats its most vulnerable, low-level employees
For many of us, that's a moral dealbreaker. But there are certainly some great teams and interesting projects in the SDE space if that's what you want!
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-...
I definitely can’t imagine “being forced” to do anything at a job too often before I’m looking for another job.
> 1. Amazon's internal beurocracy enables good teams to be very good, and bad teams to be very bad
These get sniffed out eventually. It's usually a cluster of teams and it comes down to a specific leader creating a toxic environment. Some are very good at managing up and hiding the problems. But that only lasts so long (although sometimes years).
> 2. However, there is significant internal mobility, so you can move if you get stuck on a bad team
Not true.
If you are SDE I (entry level) moving teams is incredibly hard. All of the job posting are for SDE II (except for rare circumstances) and above so you can't apply for other teams. Usually the only way to switch teams is if you know someone there and they can help you out.
If you are not in an engineering role, switching teams is even harder. The business side tends to be more political and also have more candidates for positions.
> 3. WFH policy is effectively left up to each individual team, so that is something to probe about during the interview
Not true.
If your skip-level or even higher says no remote then there will be no remote. While some groups may leave it to each "individual team" it can always be overruled.
> 4. Everybody at Amazon is in the on-call rotation, but on-call load varies significantly by team (I know someone working on an internal tool that has literally never gotten paged)
Not true.
There are teams that don't have on-call rotations. Groups that are building software that hasn't launched yet are likely not carrying a pager. Higher level managers and engineers (Principals) are likely not on a paper rotation. And a bunch of business teams don't have on-call rotations.
> 5. Churn is roughly 6%, as that is what the infamous URA target is set to;
Oversimplified.
That 6% changes every year. I've seen it much lower in some years. It all depends on what's going on in the company. That 6% is just a number they want forced out. It doesn't include people leaving on their own terms that the company would love to have back, so churn is higher.
> however, you'd be surprised how many incompetent people make it past even FAANG interviews, so I wouldn't particularly worry if you're good at your job and your boss isn't an asshole
That's a dangerous assumption to make. It's not as simple as if your boss isn't an asshole. A big factor is if your boss knows how to set you up for success and if you know the rules of how things work there.
During review time, groups that are run well will have each team bring a list of their lowest performers to discuss. They vet how well these employees are functioning against the expectations for their level. If things naturally fall into the right ratio of people that need to be slotted below the bar, then they are done. But if there are not enough people they start digging more into where people land in relation to each other. If your boss hasn't set you up with work that allows you to demonstrate your real abilities then you are likely in trouble. It's not that your boss is an asshole, but that they are inept and screwing things up.
Passing on a career building line on your resume and a significant increase of your salary on the possibility (far from guaranteed) that you may end up in a team so unbearable you would have to leave the company before reaping the aforementioned benefits is of course not the right decision.
Some teams do truly suck at Amazon, either because of the manager or the work (or both), but in those situations you can always easily change team after a year if not less. And you will find such teams in any other company.
For those this suits, it's great, we tend to weed out bullshitters and we're vastly less political than other operations I've seen. But it's not for everyone and others move on, and that does contribute to some churn. If you're considering Amazon, it's important to think hard about whether this is for you or not.
Our 'median tenure' numbers are constantly skewed by how much we've been growing. At times our doubling rate has been as little as 18-months, and so you get a lot of employees who haven't been here very long just from that too. Our actual attrition numbers are pretty middle of the range for tech. This year we has a spike in attrition at the beginning of the year - as did other tech companies - but we think we've been out-performing industry over the year as a whole. We were also ranked the #1 company where Americans want to work by LinkedIn, which is not nothing.
Amazon is full of very long-tenured folks and tends to have very stable leadership teams too.
The difference with amazon is that everyone experienced knows a fair number of people who quit because of the stress and negatives, with lots of money on the table if it goes 2 or 3 months. I have two friends who quit, each with a quarter million coming if they stayed one more quarter. It would have to be pretty bad for that. I didn't see this happen at microsoft. We made progress in our jobs, and rest and vest wasn't even an ironic statement.
If Amazon did just pay you base + stock at an even 25/25/25/25. You would still be “leaving money on the table”.
AWS is a tech company. Reasonably comparable with other FAANGs, with wide variation within teams.
Amazon is a logistics company with a web site. Logistics companies treat their employees very differently than tech companies. Amazon proper seems to me to have split personality.
Warehouse employees are treated badly, but pretty well in many ways, compared to other warehouse employees.
Tech employees at Amazon are treated well, but I can see an exec that came through the logistics part having a different mentality.