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Comment by blowski | Hacker News Reader

> A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God" but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate.

Most people in the UK celebrate Christmas, including atheists.

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Christmas as "celebrated" by atheists is not a religious ritual. We gather (sometimes), eat, drink, and give presents to kids. Just like in birthdays (also not religious).

Any party or celebration is in some sense a ritual, just not necessarily a religious ritual.

Indeed, most religious-origin festivals are celebrated by atheists as well.

As an atheist, I enjoy the culture and tradition associated with such events. Asian festivals have lots of lights and colors and rituals have dancing, singing, and art forms alongside. All of these come with tasty and nutritious food.

In some ways, I feel we’ve lost this beautiful richness in our modern non-religious lifestyles.

> In some ways, I feel we’ve lost this beautiful richness in our modern non-religious lifestyles.

Well, the celebrations are spiritually meaningless when actual, sincere theological views of the world are discarded for essentially material things. That the supernatural meaning of life has been replaced by "progress" in Western societies (we are continuously advancing towards better and better things) reflects this - we can build a paradise on Earth rather than have our spirits ascend to heaven when we are gone from Earth.

So yeah, the celebrations are basically just another get together with a dead tree nearby and the exchange of material things we've been lured into buying "on-sale", etc. If anything, it's even worse because of all the obligations and because of the lack of shared belief of a super natural thing, there's nothing that really brings us closer to each other.

I feel sorry to those who need to believe in ghosts to socialize with other people.

I don't think that's what I was saying. It was a comment on how when a religious celebration is still celebrated but the religious part has been hollowed out, you can't really find true meaning it anymore. Today it's just a commercial event where we stand around a dead tree and exchange presents for some reason. We are acting out the celebration of Christmas but we aren't actually celebrating it. It's a completely inauthentic event and at best a pastiche of the actual thing.

I think it's why I like Thanksgiving and the 4th of July more - it's essentially the same thing without the artificial Christmas obligations around it.

Why does the removal of religion sudden transform an event into a commercial event. And how does removing the religion make it commercial, but not having it in the first place does not (Thanksgiving/Independence), I do not get that seemingly popular opinion. I am not religious, though I was raised in a somewhat religious family, and Christmas has always been a good family holiday.

Don't need to have a belief in a benevolent God or his son to enjoy it or to celebrate Christmas. Plus, I'm sure that even if everyone was a devout Christian, businesses would still be marketing for Christmas sales.

The religious rituals they participate in are things like going to the shrine at New Years to pray, paying money to the local shrine for blessings for birth, new house, etc.

Not something like putting up a Christmas tree and giving presents, maybe more like going to Christmas Eve and Easter sermons.

Modern Christmas is essentially a non-religious celebration, unless if you go to church. It is mostly about family gathering and gift giving, so even atheists have no problem with that.

Christmas itself has its roots in "pagan" tradition not Christian. More aptly Old Norse. During the conversion of Scandinavia is when this change occured. Though it appears in every cultural group similarly as the winter solstice which is not religious.

Pagan gods are still gods.

OP's point exactly. Christmas is a set of rituals.

The pagan origin of Christmas is a myth.

Something that specifically deals with alleged Northern European origins: http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/12/concerning-yule.ht...

Would you not classify Saturnalia as pagan?

I understand it's not related to the currently hip Nordic paganism.

Christmas as rebranded Saturnalia is also a myth:

https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-...

Counter opinion piece:

https://www.academuseducation.co.uk/post/how-saturnalia-beca...

That piece just uncritically reiterates the precise things the McDaniel piece I linked rebuts.

Specifically:

* The similarities in how western Christians celebrate Christmas and Saturnalia was celebrated aren't that numerous. In addition, the Christmas traditions that do have Saturnalia parallels seem to have arisen independently relatively recently, long after Saturnalia ceased to be celebrated.

* The date of Saturnalia, while close to Christmas, never coincided with it.

* December 25th as Christmas seems to have an origin independent of Saturnalia.

* The celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25th seems to postdate Christmas.

Additionally, the piece you linked does not deal with Alexander Hislop's work, which seems to be the origin of the alleged "pagan" origins of Christmas, Easter, etc.

Christmas celebrations far predate the conversion of Scandinavia. The early Christians in the Roman Empire were celebrating Christmas on December 25 since the second century or so. It was officially marked on the church calendar in the fourth century after Christianity became the state religion of Rome.

There isn't much evidence that the solstice involves major celebrations predating Christmas. Whatever small celebrations did happen may have been appropriated by Christians, which makes sense given the persecution they faced.

I'm all likelihood, the date December 25 (winter solstice) was chosen as being nine months after the celebration of the Annunciation on March 25 (spring equinox) where the Virgin Mary was told she would give birth to Christ.

Throughout the history of Christianity, Christians have incorporated local traditions into our rituals and festivals, but placed into their proper framing and order (i.e. the one God is the source of all creation and is goodness). When Christianity came to Northern Europe, the church incorporated Yule festivities, placed into the proper order with Christ at the center and not the old Norse pantheon.

The arguments about Christians actually celebrating pagan holidays are from certain (usually) Calvinist reformers who had a revisionist interpretation of various Christian traditions, and felt they had debased Christ's church. The Puritans in England, for example, banned Christmas after they took power in the English Civil War, which suppressed the holiday (at first legally, then culturally) until Charles Dickens essentially revived it in the 19th century. Today, atheists have simply appropriated the Calvinist arguments for themselves.

Giving my mom a pair of headphones doesn't feel that religious to me.

Don’t you set up a tree and listen to Christmas music

Christmas tree has it's roots in Pagan traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

That is still religious.

Doing something that has religious roots doesn't automatically make it religious. The question is: what are you getting out of it? We're setting up a (now fake) tree during holidays, but treat it as tradition and a nice decoration for winter. Another example: Halloween.

> Doing something that has religious roots doesn't automatically make it religious

That's our point right

That's not how I read the "That is still religious." comment to which I was responding.

Christmas Trees are something coopted by Christianity and are pagan in origin.

Also there's very little about baby Jesus in 'Here comes Santa Claus' or 'Frosty the Snowman'

I mean, I hear Christmas music if I go outside, but I don't actively do it. And I can't remember the last time we've had a Christmas tree.

To me, Christmas is mostly about giving gifts, eating (especially chocolates) and watching TV.

Oh noes :( you should get a christmas tree next time!

Paying my respects to my ancestors doesn’t feel religious to me - those folks, maybe.

GP's point is that you don't have to be superstitious to perform religious rituals. Many Japanese people are superstitious though, just not in the pray to a deity form that we are used to in the West.

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