ErgodoxE EZ – an ergonomic keyboard with open source firmware | Hacker News Reader

ErgodoxE EZ – an ergonomic keyboard with open source firmware

ergodox-ez.com

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If you’re interested in ergo, I recommend visiting the ergo keyboard comparison tool [1] to get a sense of how deep this rabbit hole goes. And you can now use YAML to prototype custom layouts via Ergogen [2].

[1] https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/

[2] https://ergogen.cache.works/

> I recommend visiting the ergo keyboard comparison tool [1]

As far as I can tell, the list of keyboards seems dated and does not include the Ergodox EZ

There is no difference between an EZ and a DIY Ergodox other than LED options and an admittedly nice injection molded shell with tilt adjustments.

I wish there was a showroom or something I could visit to try them all out and see what fits my hands. I don't mind dropping $300 on a keyboard once, but I don't want to buy 10 different keyboards just to try them and then have to sell the ones I don't want.

FWIIW friends and I have used, bought, and built a lot of these but the build quality and comfort of the Moonlander surpasses everything. Yet to hear anyone that has tried one that switched away from it. It is also the most expensive, but in this case you get what you pay for IMO.

I haven't tried the moonlander. In which ways do you find it superior to the Ergodox EZ? What made me go for the EZ over the moonlander was the extra thumb buttons. Admitted, I do not use those too often, however, they are still quite useful.

I thought I would miss the extra thumb cluster buttons but the firmware improvements on long-press vs short-press to get different keys have made them needless. I much prefer having the big modifiers.

Build quality is also much higher, and the attached wrist rests really help after standalone ones floating all over my desk for years.

I find 6 thumb keys is all I need for all day typing. I use home row mods, so Ctrl, Alt, GUI and Shift are all accessed via holding down a home row key.

Some folks make do with 4 thumb keys.

For anyone else reading this thread- FWIW I bought a Moonlander a few months ago and I haven't been able to switch to it. It's missing just enough keys that I haven't been able to figure out a layout that seems good enough to stick with long enough to get used to it, and so when I use it it's still painfully slow.

There are some extra keys, but some of them seem hard to use well (the big red triangle keys at the top of the thumb clusters) and other things that sound great in practice, like "hold" = modifier but "tap" = insert some character, in practice have turned out to have more annoying rough edges than I had hoped.

It's very well-made though, the configurator works good, etc. Seems like a high-quality gadget, but I wish I thought a bit more about what I would do for arrow keys, special characters, modifiers, etc.

I found the Kinesis thumb clusters a lot more usable when I used to have one, but I really wanted to try a split keyboard this time.

Have you tried using the extra 2 layers? Multiplies the number of keys. Also, print your layout while you learn it to remember where things are.

yeah I have to figure out how to use the extra layers better, and then use it enough to get used to them I think. Printing out is a good tip, thanks.

can confirm..was skeptical but now I could never go back to a normal layout for daily driving...it's a dream and worth every penny and more

I agree. However, I find that you can find a few used off of ebay. And also, they seem to hold their resale value pretty well. So you can buy one and see if it works for you and then sell it if you regret.

I think the problem with a showroom is that you really need to invest at least a week or two to get used to the split keyboard. But for me, it was totally worth it.

I have long wished there was a keyboard rental service. Trouble is that an ortho layout can take months to get used to. I am still 20% slower on an ortho board than I was on a laptop keyboard, but the comfort is worth it, especially for shoulder pain.

The question is whether the comfort is because of ortho, or just because of nice big split layout keyboard?

I’d guess that a reduction in shoulder pain is a result of switching to “split”. I know that my posture improved by switching to split. It’s one of the biggest changes you can make in keyboarding I think (from the perspective of total muscle activation). In the end it all comes down to what you like, though.

I have an Ergodox EZ. IMO this product type is a tough sell. I agree, a showroom would be helpful. I stumbled upon a Meetup group of mechanical keyboard aficionados, but it was after I bought my Ergodox. I was a bit of a hero when I did mention what I had.

I had mine for 6 to 9 months and it just didn't feel like it was for me. I didn't have all the keys a normal keyboard had, I couldn't remember how I mapped the keys, etc. So I went back to my ergonomic Microsoft keyboard. It only took a couple of days to realize how much better the Ergodox is. I remapped all my keys and started using it with a new found passion. There are still some tradeoffs, but every once in a while I 'feel' a keypress and I think about how cool my keyboard is.

It is worth the journey. If nothing else to realize that it isn't for you. If you spend a reasonable amount of time in front of a computer, it behooves yourself to make the tools as fine as possible.

Kinesis still does 60 day no BS returns for stuff bought directly through them: https://kinesis-ergo.com/support/returns/

ZSA does 30 day returns: https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/shipping-returns

It's only the tip of the iceberg w/r/t the number of keyboards out there but they're the most polished products and they cover a lot of your more exotic bases (split, key wells, thumb clusters, etc.)

look for a /r/mechanicalkeyboard meetup in your area.

I wouldn't buy this board, it's a wannabe kinesis advantange but flat. Makes the reach too hard imo.

yeah the domes of the kinesis are definitely great.. everything in reach

If you’re technically inclined (and a hobbyist tinkerer), you could invest in a 3D printer and get to playing with tweak-able keyboards like the Dactyl Manuform. There’s a whole world of 3D printable ergo that lets you adjust columns, thumbs, etc. such that it perfectly matches your hands. I haven’t dabbled personally, but I think a capable printer can be had for your mentioned $300.00 albeit a lot of labor is required to see a keyboard to fruition.

Right. It is strange that there are no good keyboard shops at least in major cities. There are so many parameters involved in finding the right keyboard, testing is so important here.

My filterable gallery of split keyboards is here, should anyone want a quick overview of the range of keyboards that are available.

https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

I use Ergodox too, but this gallery of yours, this is sick man. I need to check this out, every one of them I'm not aware of.

Nice work! There's no filter for hot-swap sockets and none for the various types of light, though. Maybe also add firmware options?

Not that I need all that from your site, it's just an idea for improvement.

Just a heads-up, missing a few; https://golem.hu/boards/ seems to be a bit more complete.

I would love to see a split or ergonomic board with electrocapacitive rubber dome switches. I can't go back to the way mechanical feels, but would appreciate some ergonomics.

I have a Corne with purple Kailh Chocs for traveling, technically mechanical but they’re scissor switches so it feels like typing on a laptop if that’s the kind of experience you’re looking for

Not sure I understand correctly. Are you referring to membrane keyboards (rubber dome keyboards)? Why do you prefer these over mechanical keyboards?

My board of 3 years now has Topre clones and they feel vastly smoother than mechanical keys

This is nice but the aspect ratio is skewed on a lot of the photos that I looked. Again just a heads-up.

Nice page. Perhaps you could add a filter for ANSI/ISO key layout?

Wow. This is really great work!

I've wanted to get a mechanical keyboard for a long time but I haven't because pages like this are completely overwhelming for me.

A couple thoughts.

I've had an ErgoDox for almost 9 years.

I wrote my thoughts after a year here [0].

I use the Norman layout which I'm generally pleased with but don't know if the finger travel buys you that much. More important to me had been leveraging both thumbs to hit commonly used keys and modifiers.

In the last week, I was made aware of the miryoku layout and made a Norman version. (Prior to COVID-19, I traveled quite a bit and thought about getting a gergoplex for travel which would require a smaller layout like miryoku). It was like learning to use the ErgoDox all over (so I pulled out my extra ErgoDox with my normal layout). Time will tell if I commit to learning it.

I like the ErgoDox but admit that it is an acquired taste and you should get a keyboard that works for you.

That said, were I buying a keyboard today, I would get the Kinesis 360.

0 - https://hairysun.com/revisiting-the-ergodox.html

Thanks for sharing. Ultimately my decision to go with the EZ was based on the reputation of customer support and solidity of build. The reports of malfunctioning parts combined with poor responses from the company (exists but) are few and far between. It has been my personal experience as well that the support email is very responsive. I’ve only ever asked about firmware related things, as my EZs have withstood the rest of time (4 years) physically. They cover the bases on being easy to manipulate as far as firmware configuration and switch selection (the basics).

I had the Gergo, the slightly leaner version of the Gergoplex (until the USB started malfunctionaing, now I use my Atreus while the new Model 100 arrives) and except for, well, it not working that well now (and I hate soldering, so unlikely to fix it any time soon myself) it was an awesome keyboard. I have recommended it to many people.

I have the Georgi by g heavy industries for steno! I love the builds, and I packed it when I went to Saudi for 2 months. I need to print a flexible base to tie both halves together, but have flex to let them sit on anything. I love the low-profile keys.

I own the Kinesis Advantage 2, but the Kinesis 360 seems to be the final culmination of what all the other keyboards are trying to do. I almost considered buying one, when I realized my Advantage 2 is good enough for me in terms of how it is set, and the fact I can put it in my lap and still type without a table kept me from upgrading.

I've been using Ergodox EZ for 2 years now and I love it. It has a certain learning curve due to columnar layout, but I used this opportunity to change my keyboard layout to Colemak. It took a while to get used to it, but not only I find typing more comfortable now, it's also healthier for my wrists - I used to feel pain quite regularly, and changing from Apple Magic Keyboard to Ergodox helped a lot

hah, I changed to the EZ and to something called "Norman" at the same time. Not sure if it was the best or worst decision I've ever made. It took me a solid month to get to where I could be productive again.

Wow there are two of us using Norman on the ErgoDox!

After 8 years I'm happy, though moving back to a normal keyboard often comes with a few typos .

I used a Kinesis Advantage as my main keyboard for close to 10 years. A few years ago I got an Ergodox EZ, but just couldn't get into it. I've been using a NiZ Atom68 as my main keyboard for over a year now and am rather happy with it. I have plans to build and try a Kyria with some ultra-light linear keys soon as well.

These days I think that there are so many good community designed keyboards that it behooves anyone who has the notion they'd like something better than a standard layout keyboard to do a bit of research and testing. For any keyboard layout it is fairly trivial to make a printout and stick it to your desk to get an impression of how it fits your hand size/shape and your preferred resting/neutral position. There's a good layout comparison tool which makes it trivial to narrow in on your preference as well [0].

Recently I've found Ben Vallack [1] to be an excellent resource on keyboard customization and his philosophy echoes my own, though he shows much more dedication to the craft and exploration of keyboarding than I could ever hope or wish to. He has an excellent series on designing and making your own keyboard [2], as well as well thought out explanations and explorations of creating and learning personalized keyboard layouts [3][4]. His more general explorations of usability in computing and beyond have been inspiring as well [5].

  0: https://github.com/jhelvy/splitKbCompare
  1: https://www.youtube.com/c/BenVallack
  2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKfeJrRIcxw&list=PLCZYyvXAdQpte8dkCPz72m_O-Od9fVEqD
  3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-a64EVPPU
  4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wZ8FRwOzhU
  5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA_GUYS8UJg&list=PLCZYyvXAdQpvysng5wxGkrnIoFtvPibXM

I bought and use two Moonlanders. I’d like future versions to integrate a small trackball and to be wireless. That said, this helped my shoulder and wrist pain tremendously. I recommend it for those with injuries and unique needs. This year, I’m trying the Halmak layout to type even more efficiently.

Pair it with an Evoluent mouse or similar vertical mouse for a great setup.

Since switching to Moonlander+Colemak I went from daily shoulder neck and wrist pain to the point I could not work... to it being basically nonexistent.

YMMV but getting those hands spread apart to push the shoulders back and getting 30% less finger travel were major helps for me. My wife made the same switch and says similar.

> I’d like future versions to integrate a small trackball

Maybe you are aware, but it is possible to configure a layer to include mouse controls directly on the keys: https://i.imgur.com/5x3YTg6.png

I use this a lot and this prevents me from having to reach for the mouse to do trivial stuff.

I’d extend this comment further to eliminate your use of the word “trivial”. I don’t have a mouse anymore. Mouse keys are “better overall”, in my experience, for everything except gaming. That being said, I left the EZ’s configurator a long time ago. The tweaking to get mouse keys working optimally probably requires diving into the actual firmware. For example, you definitely need MK_COMBINED to combine basic acceleration with forced speed control. I also put a lot of thought into making it VERY easy to navigate to and from the mouse layer (dedicated and easily-accessible thumb keys) and to be able to tell if I’m on the mouse layer.

This is really interesting: I'd love to hear more about how you have the mouse key layer set up and how you've managed to make it work as well for you as a mouse or trackpad.

You've asked for an explanation of one of the things I love talking about!

TLDR: I think the most important part of my setup is that it's easy to navigate to and from the mouse layer. The EZ has two large thumb keys on each hand, and I use one on the left hand to get to the mouse layer and one on the right to get to the home layer. I don't use these keys for anything else, so there's nothing confusing about this. With this as the foundation, the muscle memory to tap each one depending on which layer you need to be on quickly becomes second nature. The mouse layer is central to my configuration, not an afterthought!

I'll list a few of the strategies I use:

- Have the mouse navigation keys basically on the home row or WASD-like configuration on the mouse layer.

- Have a dedicated mouse wheel layer with the same navigation layout (getting to this one doesn't have to be as serious as the mouse layer itself; I use a TO on the mouse layer).

- Make sure you can apply modifiers to mouse clicks and wheel movements. You'd be surprised how often you do this.

- As far as configuring acceleration, speed, etc.: It's a balancing act of tweaking. The defaults are a good place to start. Don't forget to include the operating system's speed configuration in your tweaking. It helps a lot if you can read code. The corresponding file/section in the QMK firmware is short.

- Make use of speed-clamp-acceleration-keys for detail movement and high-speed monitor switching. MK_COMBINED makes the slowest acceleration key as slow as possible.

Ultimately, I think it's "better" than a mouse because you don't have to context switch between the keyboard and a mouse. There's a split second of cognitive load replacing your hands on the keyboard that breaks down whatever mental architecture you've built to solve your problem-of-the-moment. Avoiding this load is a compounding benefit. I used to keep a mouse around in case I needed it; this has never happened.

I’m with you on this. I’d love to be able to replace the thumb cluster on one side with a trackball.

I keep an Apple touchpad in the middle of my Ergodox EZ.

Yes I need to move my hand to it, but much less so than with a traditional mouse on the side setup.

same! I find that works very well. I also sometimes put a notebook or a plate between the halves.

I'm still trying to learn my Moonlander off and on. I want to love it, and when it clicks it's amazing, but the learning cliff is pretty tall.

While not a split, two-piece keyboard, I opted for the Kinesis Advantage 2 keyboard. It has the cupped wells that follow your finger lengths in 2 axes, and you don't have to fuss with two pieces, tenting, and adjustments. I can put it in my lap and it still works as well as at my desk. It is a bit big, but not as much as the photos I first viewed before buying it, and it is very light. The firmware is on the keyboard, so need to setup your computer to use it. Plug and play with multiple computers. The Moon Lander looks spectacular, and their marketing is more polished, but the Kinesis is my favorite.

Yep, I've been using the Kinesis Advantage for two decades and it's still the best one out there IMO.

I bought a Moonlander earlier this year after getting bad upper back pain and knowing that if I didn’t do something the pain would only get worse and I would end up with a hunch. Previously I was coding on a Magic Keyboard.

I ended up quitting my coding job shortly after getting the Moonlander so the pain has sort of resolved itself anyway as I’m no longer doing massive coding sessions. But I’m glad I’ve got it for the future.

At first I found it massively frustrating. The default layout is quite frankly ridiculous. The only way I could get myself to stick with it is by making the keyboard layout as close to the British Magic Keyboard as possible. For anyone interested, this is my set up, that took me a good few iterations to get to:

https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/KZ7aa/latest/0

Maybe I’m “doing it wrong” but I think once I’ve got used to using it as a regular QWERTY keyboard I can then maybe look at changing the layouts and doing the fancy stuff. The fact that they ship it with such a crazy default layout is bewildering to me.

I’m still nowhere near as fast with it as the standard apple keyboard but I imagine I’ll get there naturally after a year or so. I can do longer sessions on it now before I have to pick up the laptop in frustration. And I’ll be sticking with it because the health benefits really are worth it.

I have an ergodox and a moonlander, and I shared the same frustration on initial use; however, after about a week of pecking around and doing a good number of typing exercises (e.g. https://www.keybr.com/, https://www.speedcoder.net/) using a basically modified mac layout, I was back up to 99% for standard use, and definitely a bit faster for common things (e.g. typing usernames/passwords).

I don't use tons of layouts, I'm mostly there for the ergonomic benefits, which I definitely feel vs a magic keyboard and trackpad.

Does ortholinear/columnar actually feel better? I feel like I see many comments about how there's a bit of a learning curve that can be overcome after a while, but very few comments about whether overcoming that learning curve is actually worth it and it's really more comfortable. Is it supposed to be better for your wrists? Or your fingers?

The "split" aspect of these keyboards is definitely more comfortable imo - I ended up going with a Dygma Raise (which I'm very happy with!), because I wasn't interested in learning ortholinear. But I've remained curious about whether ortholinear is actually better, or if it's just a thing that a lot of split keyboards happen to have.

I’ve tried out various form factors (full size, tkl, 75%, 60%, single keyboard with wells), and the ergodox ez was by far the most comfortable for coding. Until I bought the moonlander, which is now my main “at desk” keyboard. I’m running a modified version of Colemak DHM on my moonlander.

Ortholinear is my favorite layout because I can shift some keys down one row (such as Z), and then it perfectly suits my hands.

When I look at my hands (31) my fingers actually look slightly twisted and crooked. There’s a chance that I might have broke them without realising when I was younger doing martial arts and rugby but I’m of the firm belief that they’ve got this way through hammering shallow non ortholinear keyboards (specifically the magic keyboard) for years. I’ve had pain in my fingers at certain points over the years from typing for hours that I just kind of David Goggins’ed my way through. Can’t prove it’s the cause but it is my strong suspicion.

It's common. Look at an old person's hands, especially one with arthritis.

I can’t rule that out but the pain was completely linked to times when I was using the magic keyboard heavily for days on end. I don’t have any pain now nor do I have any pain using the magic keyboard, I just kind of healed and adjusted. This is what makes me wonder if it was some kind of fracture caused by the heavy repetition that I made worse by working through. The twisting and misalignment is all limited to the part of the finger above the knuckle and seems to be most pronounced on my index and middle fingers which again supports the hypothesis.

ortholinear works very well when you use a split keyboard, but i find it worse for non-split keyboard. The angle of your hands factor in here. With split they're parallel, so fingers are also "straight". However, the traditional layout isn't symetric anyways, so your right hand gets the best ergonomics vs your left.

A benefit for ortholinear I don’t see mentioned here: it’s a little less cognitive load to locate keys by touch. As someone else mentioned, I think “split” might be important here (and I don’t have any experience with non-split ortholinear). Also, this only applies after you’ve overcome the learning curve. All this taken into account: with my ortholinear board, I rarely mistype. I attribute this to it just being easier to know which key I’m hitting with a columnar layout. You can take this a step further with CRKBD and similar such that each key is only 1 unit away from home (and thus it’s next to impossible to mistype).

I currently using a Corne[1]. I was never able to fully touch type on a staggered keyboard as I frequently pressed a neighboring key on the bottom and the number row. Now I only have to move my fingers up and down to find the right keys. Also my fingers have less distance to travel.

[1]: https://github.com/foostan/crkbd

I like my ergodox but I love my Kinesis Advantage. Seriously consider looking at the Kinesis before any other option. The learning curve is hard but the pay off is amazing. I truly love that keyboard and will replace it with a new one as soon as I need to.

I’ve had my eye on the Kinesis advantage for a long time. Is there any form of virtual layering like on the ergodox? That’s been a key feature for me with the ergodox and I’d have a hard time living without it.

The new 360 has layering. I use the Kinesis Advantage 2 and I'm not quite sure, I don't think so. Both have a good manual on the website if you want to read about all the features.

There is a way to hack in an open source firmware on the Kinesis Adv2. It's called the stapelberg mod. It has layers and even RGB led to indicate layer.

There's only 1 layer on the Kinesis Advantage 2. The "numpad" layer. It is fully reprogramable so it doesn't need to be a numpad and you can layer all the keys but yeah it's a drawback compared to the Ergodox or Moonlander.

Layering takes mental effort. I find I don't like having to think about what layer I'm in.

Agree. I use so much more of the keyboard and more efficiently on the Advantage2. Really wish it had been the standard that won everybody over.

I bought an ErgodoxEZ a couple months ago in an effort to find the right ergo keyboard for me. Though I ended up choosing the Kinesis Advantage 2 instead, there are a lot of great things about this keyboard.

- Really nice build quality.

- Lights made me feel cool and helped me keep track of which layer that I was in.

- Extremely customizable layout options with a user-friendly way to map keys and all that stuff.

- Customer service was very friendly and helpful in helping me return the keyboard and get a refund.

In the end I just found that the Kinesis Adv. 2 felt more comfortable for my hands. I would recommend the Ergodox to anyone who is looking to try out an ergo keyboard, especially if the layout config is high on your priority list.

Happy for you! I tried the Kinesis Advantage and thought the keys were placed in a weird way that I could not get used to. Now I'm a happy kinesis freestyle user for 1 year. Sold my Advantage and HHKB.

As someone who owns the Moonlander, ZSA's proprietary successor to the Ergodox EZ, I consider the soon-to-be-released Dygma Defy (https://dygma.com/pages/defy) to be superior to either in every respect save perhaps for the maturity of its firmware platform.

This looks nice. I don't have a Moonlander, so why do you expect this to be superior, apart from being wireless (which, I think, is awesome, since I hate having random cables running across my desk)?

However, what's missing, for me, is the Fx row or direct access media keys. I know about layers, not moving the fingers too far, etc, and think this is a great approach for when I'm in "full-on working mode".

But I oftentimes find myself wanting to push one specific "function" key when one of my hands is busy / dirty (think eating an apple or similar). I would rather not have to do weird pinky gymnastics or push multiple keys just to trigger one function. Plus, these things are already massive enough that one more row would probably make little to no difference.

Those are also not things I'd need to do all day every day, so sacrificing a few buttons from the thumb clusters doesn't seem right, either.

In addition to wireless, more customization options and a more sensible thumb cluster position, was why I regarded the Defy as better.

I, too, feel that a lack of dedicated keys for less-used keys including function keys is a problem with these keyboards, and also consider the general community's philosophy of reducing finger travel by transforming such keys to chords problematic. But I don't see much change to this anytime soon.

I've had an Ergodox EZ for 4 years and it's awesome. Once you learn to type on it and take advantage of the multitude of macros, it's almost telepathic.

But I end up using an inexpensive bluetooth keyboard most of the time because I work between a macbook (that doesn't like USB-A without a dock or dongle) and a windows desktop.

I've thought about getting a USB switcher hub or a bluetooth dongle for the ergodox, but at that point I'm adding way too much bulk to my desk or bag if I decide to travel with it. I'm already pushing my luck when I try fitting it in my carry-on suitcase.

I wish there was a bluetooth Ergodox with MX low profile keyswitches+caps.

You could use a software solution like ‘Sharemouse’ or Synergy (the former having working drag n drop and copy paste between windows and osx

Software sharing solutions create a lot of attack surface and mean giving a personal laptop full control of a work laptop or vice versa. This pretty much violates every security team policy at every company.

I can only recommend such solutions between things like test automation or QA machines that have no security impact if compromised.

https://www.n00py.io/2017/03/compromising-synergy-clients-wi...

I curate more mobile ergonomic setups at https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/ . After a year of looking at different designs I'm starting to explore something based on the Atreus but with about half the keys being chopped down a bit.

This is the kind of niche community that brings joy. Thanks!

Not only does the ErgoDox use open source firmware. The original hardware design is also open source, introduced ten years ago. The official site is https://www.ergodox.io/

ErgoDox EZ is for those who want a ready-made product. For DIY:ers with a soldering iron, parts have been available from multiple other vendors. The links here might be a bit outdated: https://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox

The movement of custom split-keyboards is a godsend. And that now companies have appeared who supply this market with high quality-products is awesome for people like me, who can't build custom keyboards themself. I have an ergodox from FalbaTech and a Dygma raise, and I really love them, their layout and the programability. I hope we will receive more love for this industry, so prices for split-keyboards will go down, and more people are willing to invest in these tools.

Another alternative is the kyria from splitkb.com (they are from the Netherlands)

It also runs on qmk.

Their stuff is really good, and a perfect/easy solder project. Their discord and support staff is super friendly. (Not to mention you get a sticker and stroobwaffle with each order)

I'm rocking two of them, one for work and one for the home office.

My first one took around 4-5 hours to build, and second one was around 2 hours.

I’ve got a kyria as well. Can’t recommend highly enough. Splitkb.com is great

Moved to Ergodox EZ with highly customized Colemak layout half a year ago. The first weeks weren't easy but now it is a breeze and I can highly recommend. Much more relaxed typing and the customizing together with Karabiner and Rectangle allows me to have the same hotkeys on macOS as I have on Windows.

Kids are loving it too with the backlit keys and animations :)

I have one, I love it, the only complaint i have is that there's not yet another enveloping row of keys across the top and down the outer sides of each half.

You don't need more keys, if you have layers.

yes and also no.

You don't need layers if you have more keys. And it's faster too

> only complaint i have is that there's not yet another enveloping row of keys across the top and down the outer sides of each half

I second this. Although, I find this is mitigated fairly well by having extra layers. But I would really love an additional row above the number row.

It's a self-assemble kit, but Keebio's BFO-9000 may have enough keys for you (2x6x9):

https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full...

I have LONG been wanting them to do a low-profile Bluetooth Planck, but “there are no plans”.

I can get a decent conventional, somewhat ergonomic mechanical keyboard with Bluetooth and support for 3 devices for half the price (and actually got a niche gaming keyboard with linear reds for $30 on sale), but all the orthos (or sweeps) I can find are custom builds (although instructions and designs are plentiful and I am handy with a soldering iron and MCUs, sourcing and assembling them is something I am hesitant to do given all the other stuff I want to do with my time…).

That said, the people I know with one of their keyboards are generally happy, although they all point out there have been no major changes or improvements in the past couple of years.

I love split keyboards but had to return this one because after using it for a week my brain was still unable to adapt to the different key placements.

A week isn't quite long enough. I think it was about a month before I got proficient, and you have to unlearn some bad typing form, like typing Cs with your index finger.

If you (meaning you speak to onlookers more than you here OP) want a more radical split, buy a dactyl manuform. They're tough to get, but worth it.

agreed, it took me about a month as well. the result is that I now absolutely hate the experience of typing on non-columnar layouts...

Anecdotally it only took me a day to get used to the columnar layout. Getting used to other changes such as the position of modifiers,backspace, etc was much harder for me, personally.

This was never an issue for me. In fact I like to change the key bindings so often like emacs users like to tweak their config (I used to do that too but there is no time for so much customization in my life).

I've made so many radically changes in the last year that I think my brain got used to the constant changing and I now gain muscle memory faster. I've also gone from the QWERTY layout to Engram[0] and become fully productive(55wpm) after a month of 30 minute exercises a day on keybr[1]

At the moment I am sitting on this moonlander[2]. Is it worth your time and money? I don't know, I know it is for me. At the least the shoulder pain went away and I've made a fun for me keyboard customization.

[0] https://engram.dev/

[1] http://keybr.com/

[2] https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/7B45Y/latest/0

Same. Turns out don’t know how to touch type, so in addition to the learning curve of the new layout I also had to learn which fingers were even supposed to type each key. It’s much more difficult and counterproductive to cheat with an ergo keyboard.

Learning to touch type will definitely pay off in the long run, especially if you're in the tech field.

Maybe try the kinesis freestyle edge. More or less keeps the traditional key layout but it is split. I love mine.

Does anybody know something similar, with a trackball?

I got interested in these split ergo keyboards when I saw the new Kinesis models [0] but unfortunately they don't ship to my location.

I came across the Charybdis [1] and I loved the idea but I'm not capable enough to assemble it myself and the guy making them has a many week lead time, so I'd love an equivalent.

[0]: https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/

[1]: https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/

I guess there is the Oddball: https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/

CST trackballs use a billiard ball sized trackball which seems silly until you try it for a while. Super smooth and smaller movement to get a lot more travel.

Honestly though I consider mice and trackballs a crutch and really only for design work or gaming.

I ditched a mouse at my last office entirely favoring mouse emulation mode on the ergodox, a tiling window manager like i3, and the keyboard driven qutebrowser.

I've got a CST mouse (complete with billiard ball, you can see it in my Twitter background @__mharrison__).

I had the CST between the halves for almost 8 years but recently went back to putting it on the right side.

My conclusion is that there are general principles of ergonomics but in the end you need to listen to your body and adjust if you feel pain.

As a fellow mouse keys enthusiast, I recommend checking out the extra configuration that available if you open up the actual firmware (if you’re looking for some fiddling to do). MK_COMBINED, for example, allows you to use the basic mouse acceleration and then clamp the speed to specified levels if required (for detail work, jumping monitors, etc.). You have to program, compile, and flash the firmware the “hard” way to do this, but the EZ’s configurator lets you download your current source as a great starting place.

The UHK has a trackball-module.

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball

I have this setup. The trackball module is ok. 6/10. I haven't been able to move to using it full-time as it's a bit small.

I very much like the UHK v1, but the trackball module wasnt good enough for me. It is sitting in a drawer.

I just put my trackball in between the two halves of the keyboard, up against the left half because I use it left-handed.

I've been using split keyboards and the Dvorak layout for many years. Currently using a UHK[1], which I love.

I'm curious about the Ortholinear layout though, and how much benefit that confers by itself if you're already using a split keyboard and/or optimized layout. It seems like most people switch all three factors at once, which makes it hard to isolate which ones are the most beneficial. Anyone have any experience switching no factor besides the ortholinear layout?

[1]: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

So I’ve been into mechanical keyboards for about two and a half years now. Here’s how I would roughly rank layout changes I’ve tried

1. Split or unibody split 2. Moving to a smaller form factor (40% keyboard) so that my fingers don’t move nearly as far from the home row) 3. Ortholinear on a non-split board

I’ve tried ortholinear alone, ortho on split, and row staggered on split. I feel like split is the most improvement in comfort for me in general. But, on a split board I do prefer ortho, if that helps. On a non-split board, I’m not sure ortho has a huge effect for me, I use both regularly and don’t notice a big difference.

I honestly may even rank 40% boards as number one, because of how useful having numbers and symbols so close to or on the homerow is for comfort.

So anyway, those are my two cents from my experience

Thank you, that's interesting to know! I've seen non-split ortho boards before and it just looked like it would be weird. Split is the only case I've ever been curious about them, so I'm happy to hear that confirmed!

I was previously using split staggered ergo keyboards before I switched to the Kinesis Advantage 2. I feel like ortholinear (well columnar staggered or whatever technically) is an improvement. Not as much as thumb clusters/full programmability though. One place where it is super nice is using uiojklm,. as a number pad. With staggered that just feels SUPER weird. I did also stuff a Japanese in my Thinkpad to get extra thumb keys and as close to the layout I'm using on the Kinesis as possible (thanks to software like keyd/kmonad making layering an option) so I do have some comparison there.

I'd learned Dvorak years before trying these keyboards. (Eventually gave up, probably by not making the effort to switch the layout back from US).

One minor benefit: the nice thing about external keyboards is the OS layout can be US layout, and you don't have to worry about switching the OS settings.

IMO, being familiar with Dvorak means ortho is an easy transition, since your fingers will already follow a column-discipline. (Whereas, my QWERTY remain hunt & peck; I use ortho with Dvorak, qwerty with row-stagger).

I'd say ortho almost universally goes with with "multiple thumb keys" (2-3 each). This helps a lot with "reduce pinky finger usage, increase thumb usage", since you can move the backspace, enter, escape, tab keys to within reach of the thumb, alongside space. -- Thumb keys also allow for layering, to reduce hand movement from home row.

I think the advantages of asymmetric row-stagger are availability/cost, and its history as the typical keyboard layout. -- If you don't need to share your keyboard with anyone, and can afford a keyboard with straight columns, ortho is nice.

Thank you, I appreciate the thoughts! I really enjoy the layers on the UHK, mouse-mode means not taking my hands off the keyboard at all, but I can totally see how being able to have a few extra layers by reaching thumb buttons more easily would be beneficial. Now I'm even more curious to try one. :-)

I've had my EZ split keyboard for 2.5 years now. I do not like it! But since I've paid a lot for it, I keep forcing my self to use it. I constantly switch back n forth with my 8 years old Code Keyboard.

I tried a friend's new Kinesis 360 keyboards and it felt more ergonomic and comfortable, not that I could type smoothly but I realized should've invested my efforts on Kinesis's style rather than Ergodox's.

If you do not like it and have tried getting used to it for 2 years, you might want to consider selling it on ebay. Used EZs are seemingly keeping a lot of their resale value.

My problem with all Ergodox-style keyboard is that they're missing a row of keys.

I love my Kinesis Gaming Freestyle Edge. It's roughly the same as the Kinesis Freestyle Pro, but the wrist pads are orders of magnitude better (the Pro has horribly scratchy foam-style wrist pads, which makes icky noises, #misophonia). Thankfully you can turn off the RGB garbage.

I'm very late to this party, but here's an amazing list of buildable keyboards[0], specifically linked are the split ones (like Ergodox).

Most of these today run QMK and specifically the Configurator[1].

I recommend most people stay away from the Ergodox unless your hands are larger and have a specific reach. While a great keyboard back in 2012-2015, the thumb cluster is outside of comfortable for most people and there have been a lot of improvements in this area over the years.

If building a keyboard yourself isn't your thing, I highly recommend the keyboard.io crew.

[0] https://github.com/BenRoe/awesome-mechanical-keyboard/blob/m...

[1] https://config.qmk.fm/#/hotdox/LAYOUT_ergodox

Dactyl manuform is an good alternative to ergodox and Kinesis advantage.

Disclosure I run a small store that sells dactyl keyboards[1]. I've had several people who told me they had discomfort with Ergodox, Moonlander and Kinesis but found the Dactyl quite comfortable.

[1] https://taikohub.com

I had an EZ a few years ago. It took a few weeks to get used to it but I grew to like it quite a bit. I didn't have issues switching between traditional keyboards and it.

The build quality was questionable, and judging by the pictures it doesn't look like a whole lot has changed. Mine failed after approx 25 months. I believe the Mini USB (!) port failed, and unfortunately it couldn't be replaced due to the way the shell is injection molded into the PCB. They also wouldn't sell me a replacement half because "we're not sure if it will be compatible with your older half and the switches will feel different." Also, the cable/port connecting the two halves (mini audio style) was fidgety out of the gate.

At ~$320, this product was something that I expected to last at least a few years (and receive support for failing that.) I won't be buying anything from them again.

By contrast friends and I have beat the hell out of our EZs and never had a problem. Way more durable than any of our hand-built Ergodox.

That said, I switched to the Moonlander a couple of years ago and can attest the build quality is much higher though. I could hardly see myself using anything else now.

The typing experience itself was pleasurable and solid (although the tenting arms were a little weird.) It wasn't abused/sat on my desk and always had an issue with the cable connecting the halves (I had to play with it sometimes to get one half to be recognized.) Then eventually the right-angle mini USB cable started winking out and requiring me to re-seat it.

Maybe I just got a bad unit. Regardless, I was really disappointed in their support options.

Never seen these issue on an EZ but they are common issues on Ergodox in general and I have had to resolder the mini-usb connectors a number of times on DIY units as they just do not have a lot of structural support. You do have to baby the connector a bit but everything else takes considerable abuse.

I have no doubt this is why they went with a recessed USB type C on the Moonlander which would take significant force to break.

I've had one since 2017 and have used it literally every work day, and have experienced no issues. It's been a great keyboard. I wish I could justify the slimmer Moonlander. I also wish somebody would make a compelling wireless version of a split ortholinear mechanical board.

https://www.slicemk.com/pages/ergodox-wireless perhaps? Can't personally attest tho

Alternate data: been using my Ergodox EZ (original, not shine or anything) for six years with heavy use, no problems. And I bought the thing used six years ago.

I have the Moonlander and am a big fan. I haven't taken real advantage of the open-source firmware other than customizing the layout so that is is as close to a traditional layout as I could make it, given the physical layout of the keys (this mostly has to do with where you put the backspace, delete, enter, |\, control, arrow, and other keys, not the actual letters).

It's well built and looks super cool, but the real reason I got it is because it encourages a more upright, shoulders-straight/non-hunched over position. I think regular split keyboards do a good enough job of taking care of wrist issues / carpal tunnel, but only these can really help with overall back/shoulder position.

I have two Moonlanders and three Ergodox Ez keyboards from ZSA, and all have been great (one of each for the office, one for home usage). The build quality and software tools are very good: flashing a new layout from a browser is so much easier than needing extra tools. Had an issue with one of the Moonlander halves with a key suddenly not working and got a replacement half immediately, without further discussion with support.

This is a great entry point to split ortholinear keyboards. Build quality is great, its well supported, and its very easy to set up and get using it. The moonlander they sell is also pretty good. I like the ergodox style thumb cluster better, but the moonlander is super portable, so that helps if you are moving around a lot.

When I converted to split ortholinear it took me about a month to get back to the same proficiency that I had with a standard keyboard, so if your looking to make the plunge make sure you set aside time to practice the new layout. I would set up two keyboards so I could switch back after a few hours and still be productive for the day while I was getting used to the new layout.

Love the EZ, though it took a month or two to get back to a comparable typing speed. The flexibility of the firmware configuration is what I appreciate most.

I have had keys give out 2 times in as many years, but both times the RMA process was quite smooth.

For a moment I read it as open source keyboard. The djinn looks interesting if you are looking for an open source keyboard[1]

[1] https://github.com/tzarc/djinn

The Ergodox design itself is also open source. The EZ has some nice extra features such as backlighting and you can get a fully assembled one, but if you wanted to build your own Ergodox you absolutely can.

How are these split keyboards for gaming? I guess not great in many fast paced FPS or MOBAs which is a bit of a deal breaker for me.

The size of the Kinesis Advantage is another big problem in gaming I reckon, with very little space left for the mouse - I have a full keyboard with numpad and I'm already thinking of going tenkeyless for more space.

EDIT: ah... nevermind, these comments have convinced me to splurge on a Moonlander, which can be used with only the left half plugged in. Also probably a good idea to invest in an ergonomic setup now that I was thinking of removing evil and going back to the Emacs keybindings.

the kinesis advantage gives more room for the mouse. and gaming on FPS or MOBA is totally feasible. but gaming is pretty terrible activity as it increases your chance of developing RSI. I would go back and never play games :/

It depends on whether you often need to reach across the keyboard middle. If you need to press keys on the left half with your right hand or the other way around, it will be uncomfortable.

Specifically for shooters I've found it pretty great though. I usually only need the left half of the keyboard anyway, since the right hand almost exclusively uses the mouse. Having a split keyboard means I can push the right half back and have more space for the mouse.

I am, however, also the kind of person that rebinds 80% of hotkeys in games to what I like, so I will always go to the trouble of binding every single important action to a key on the left half of the keyboard in shooters. So take that with a grain of salt.

The Ergodox EZ is great for these! You can customize your keybinds and program macros and layers. Just use one half, for more space for the mouse.

Flat keyboards are going to perform better for games vs curved keyboards if you play FPS. Unless maybe you're a pro gamer who want to extend your career or something.

I am unable to feel comfortable WASD-ing with my moonlander, so I switch back to a "traditional" keyboard for gaming. I think it's mostly the ortholinear aspect that makes it not great for me in this context. I never really tried to get used to it anyways since I don't play keyboard games much. I've had my moonlander for two years now, it's my primary keyboard that I use almost every single day.

However, lately I've been using a traditional keyboard more, mostly because i keep mixing more between home office and not, and leaving my moonlander at the office. I have no issues using the one over the other anymore since starting biking to work.

And once again, no ISO layout option available :( While I can understand that US companies address the US market first, why are they ignoring large markets of the rest of the world, which are larger than the US?

I'm not even sure what an ISO layout would even mean here? This keyboard is otholinear, and already deviates fairly meaningfully from the normal US layout. It is mising 5 keys from the core typing area, and only adds back 3 of them in the extra row with arrow keys. So you already need to utilize the extra new buttons for some of this, in addition to space bar, modifier keys, layer/mode control keys, etc.

People who buy these types of keyboards often create very customized layouts to handle things like convenient macros, buttons not physcially included on the keyboard etc. ISO users could do the same. For example, moving shift buttons down to the thumb area gives you a place for the extra ISO key in that row. The missing extra key from in the home row could be moved to say the key between return and backspace. Or return could be remapped entirely, or whatever.

It is really very unclear to me what an ISO variation of this would even be.

The left hand on a split keyboard has 6 keys in the bottom row on an ISO layout, but only 5 on an ANSI layout as this keyboard has. Then comes the shift key. I am a huge fan of split keyboards, but as I am touch typing, that required the keys being in the correct relative position to each other.

There are tons of great keyboards out there, unfortunately a lot of them only in ANSI layout.

I can’t get used to autho layouts but I 10/10 recommend split keyboards for posture, rolling your shoulders in can’t be healthy. If you want staggered check out the happy hacker pro or Dygma raise

Is there anything like the ergodox ez, but fully wireless? I don't care about lighting (which would reduce battery life). But truly wireless split keyboard just makes sense to me.

There is the Redox wireless: https://falbatech.click/19644-2-v9b7d173b068d/ (not affiliated, just a happy customer)

Thank you, this like exactly what I was looking for

Very happy owner of a moonlander. Can't recommend it enough.

Let's say you want to get into split keyboards but are worried about the learning curve.

The best thing you can do to prepare is ensure you can touch type correctly. "Crossing", or typing a key with the wrong hand, just simply won't be possible anymore.

Once you can get that down, your keyboard will have shipped and you can start practicing the thumb cluster once it arrives.

Don't bother with the fancy stuff, like layers or custom layouts, until you've mastered the two fundamentals above.

I bought a Moonlander last year, and this year built a Corne for work... despite the limitations, it is so much nicer than the horrendous macbook air keyboard I get.

ZSA moonlander has been a joy to use. After a few iterations using their highly polished and user friendly customization tools, I found a great layout and have been using it for over a year. Going between Planck (kit, assembled DIY) layout when traveling, 65% board at work, and split ortho moonlander at home has been fun.

Also props to the very fast and friendly ZSA customer service department. I had a defective keycap and they responded swiftly and sent a replacement.

I recently purchased their newer keyboard, the Moonlander MK I. I've been very happy with it so far! This is my first ortholinear layout, so it's taken some getting used to, but I've been very happy with the customizability and the programming process.

ZSA provides a webpage that lets you remap your key layout and flash it to your keyboard right from browser, without downloading any other software, which has been super convenient.

I was looking at the Dygma Raise when I discovered ortholinear layouts. That led me to the Moonlander, but now Dygma has the Defy which is a more premium gamer look to it. If anyone is curious it starts at $350 USD to preorder.

https://dygma.com/pages/defy

That said, I’m happy with my Moonlander using it with a Dvorak layout. Had it for about 2 years now. Only issue is that it slides around when tented.

Been using for 6 years, bought used off ebay so keyboard is actually older. It's great but also a bit a rabbit hole that ends up with modifying code in QMK because none of the ten thousand layouts already in existance are quite right.

https://docs.qmk.fm/#/getting_started_introduction

Does anyone know of any good vertical keyboards, like the Yogitype [1] or SafeType [2]?

Or has anyone made custom vertical stands for any other split keyboards like the ErgodoxE?

[1] https://i.imgur.com/dFhEFHL.png

[2] https://i.imgur.com/wLGo6Ww.jpg

My question is how one get adjusted to ortholinear layout and move back to staggered when using laptop outdoors.

It's a reasonable question. I chose to learn a different keyboard layout (Colemak) for my ortholinear keyboards and use QWERTY on staggered keyboards. I'm not sure if that made a difference, but I don't have difficulty using the laptop keyboard. It's probably simpler than that though, with the mind just tilting the "vertical" axis over when necessary.

The Ergodox EZ is my secondary keyboard, while my primary is a Keebio Iris [1]. I've used them heavily for years, and highly recommend both.

[1] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard

Looks awesome. But it's pricey and afaik not wireless.

Still want it and the moonlander https://www.zsa.io/moonlander). I look forward to full wireless options for these so I can just give them my money.

Bear in mind wireless keyboard protocols are very hard to create without side channel and key injection attacks.

Wired is the way to go if you do not want to be easily wirelessly implanted with malware or keylogged.

https://media.defcon.org/DEF%20CON%2024/DEF%20CON%2024%20pre...

Each time I see this I really want to buy it, but I can't justify the price tag. Especially since I already have a 'regular' Ergodox from Falbatech. I recently bought a Keychron Q1, because I was also craving for just a regular keyboard with QMK support.

If you do any type of programming or heck even just regular office work for a living, I think it should be easy to justify the cost. Think of how many hours you are spending on your keyboard. This is a tool that you use to earn a living. The cost is trivial when you think of it this way.

Think of how much you spend on, say, shoes. What does Ergodox EZ cost? The same as two pairs of shoes? It is easy to justify cost of shoes as you use them many hours every day and bad shoes hurt your health. Same can be said about a keyboard if you use it professionally. Keyboard will definitely outlast two pairs of shoes.

Yes, but as I said, I already have a 'regular' Ergodox. That would be the same as replacing a pair of perfectly good shoes for shinier newer ones.

I have an Ergodox EZ sitting collecting dust these days. I got a great deal of use out of it and before long I was compiling my own firmware and making use of various advanced QMK features that were not available through the online visual layer configuration tool.

The keyboard has great build quality, the customer service is great (I got a free replacement for the right half after an issue with one of the keys), the ortholinear layout isn't that difficult to get used to, but ultimately the issue for me was that my hands aren't big enough to use the keyboard comfortably or to type as accurately as I'd like / as I'm used to typing.

I'm now back on my Apple Magic Keyboard and happier than ever, though with a few tweaks and improvements taken from my time using the Ergodox EZ.

I am now using kanata[1] which allows me to have multiple QMK-style layers on my regular old keyboard. This is already a huge step up from my pre-Ergodox days! I also like that I can have my layer configurations version controlled in a plain old git/dotfiles repo.

Since the layers are handled at the software level, I wrote my own integration with kanata, called komokana[2] to switch keyboard layers programmatically based on different state events emitted from my tiling window manager[3].

What that means in practice is that my keyboard can automatically switch to an app-specific layer when that app's window is focused, or to a workspace specific layer, or to a browser tab-specific layer, or really just switch on any event emitted by the window manager or any specific window manager state.

For me, this is really the killer feature of my setup now, and one that I don't think would be anywhere near as easy to implement with QMK which sits at the hardware level.

The jump from having to trigger layer changes via key presses or holds to having my keyboard automagically switch to the layer I want for a given application is almost as big as the jump from having no layers to having layers. There is just no going back once you've experienced it.

[1]: https://github.com/jtroo/kanata

[2]: https://github.com/LGUG2Z/komokana

[3]: https://github.com/LGUG2Z/komorebi

I'd like to try an Ergodox, but without the convex keys as I have with my Kinesis Advantage 2, I think I'd be back to getting wrist pain again.

I would realllly like to try out the Kinesis 360 if it's ever sold outside of the US.

I tried to use a split a couple of months before and just couldn't get used to it. I was way better after a week but still felt that my daily driver (ducky one 2sf) is like a no-op for my brain.

$354 seems pricey when compared to a keyboard.io Model 100, that features custom keycaps for improved ergonomics and hopefully starts shipping this week.

As a Moonlander owner (which is its own niche look) that keyboard is.... a very niche look. I hate it, personally. I don't get wood on keyboards.

Related: I got their moonlander last year, and it's so good, I don't want type on anything else. Ever again.

I agonized over my moonlander purchase, I really had my eyes on the UHK with the trackpad, but I got tired of waiting, my shoulder and wrist pain was getting to be too much, so I bit the bullet.

I regret not buying a keyboard like this earlier. Or building one. It's actually made me a better typist on regular qwerty keyboards, as I switch to colemak and basically relearned how to type.

So, no numpad, right?

Love the concept, just not sure I could use DAWs, Unreal Engine, and Blender without the ol' numpad.

Usually keyboards like this have different modes/layers. There's no fixed numpad but by pressing some key or combination, the keyboard layout changes to a numpad (or whatever else you want).

I could see it working, just think it would take a lot of getting accustomed to and unlearning decades-worth of muscle memory. Super tempted.

It's really nice to do it this way as you can instantly get the numpad without moving your fingers to it.

I'm only on day three with a moonlander but it hasn't been that bad so far. I'm up to 60wpm now so I'm past the part where I felt unproductive. I've settled a bit more into a layout I'm happy with today too.

It's a split keyboard. Put a numpad in the middle.

That way you can use the numpad with your left or right hand easily while having your other hand ready to follow up with an enter or a letter to start typing something else.

you can buy an external numpad

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