Hacker News Reader

Comment by cafed00d | Hacker News Reader

All of this has a super simple explanation: the shitty products always have org structures that treat software dev as shitty cost centers.

It took a long time to realize that the most compelling devices have good, well maintained software.

I don’t mean to say that software devs are geniuses or that these orgs have to hire the best of the best. No, they just need to create an org that prioritizes software dev. Low attrition, increased visibility, the usual. You don’t need fancy new features. Just make sure the intern who wrote your v1 Bluetooth driver feels compelled enough to stay on to become a staff engineer running a team that still assures bugs get fixed. Simple.

View on HN

It's also possible that their Bluetooth stack for the AirPods is likely sharing a lot of code with their battle-tested iOS stack which puts even Android's to shame (I worked at both places and even Googler's acknowledged Android has some serious problems and Apple kicked there ass here).

A sibling noted the H1 chip and whatnot. I don't know how much the specific chip matters for that piece (certainly key for battery life & having both buds appear as a single device). After all, their Bluetooth stack was better than the competition even back when they were using off the shelf chips. Still, it's possible off the shelf chips for acting as the master are somehow simpler than the chips for acting as a slave (or maybe you notice it more).

There is a widespread belief in a simple explanation among Googlers: device makers test against iPhone. Whenever Apple strays off spec, they'll choose to be compatible with Apple's implementation rather than the standard.

TBF, can't blame them. Apple has pretty much a single stack. Android is about as fragmented as the PC world.

Well I think it doesn't stop with the SW stack, I remember the time when the android devices had the bathtub notch without having any real sensors in them.

That wasn't a common belief AFAIK among people I talked with that actually knew what they were talking about. They readily admitted the Android stack sucked balls. There are 3 generations of Bluetooth stack that I recall. The first was Bluez-based but offloaded a lot to the vendor as I recall. That didn't work well. The second one Broadcom open-sourced their BlueDroid stack and donated it to Android in 2012. The third is Google finally taking control of it and I hope they had success with it (my info is a bit dated on that front).

Google has had a single Bluetooth stack for quite a while although variable quality vendor implementation. IIRC BlueDroid took over more of the stack than Bluez did so we're talking about 10 years here where Android has had a single monolithic stack.

The main explanation I've heard is that Apple has much fewer Bluetooth chips to support but I don't know that explains it because there's generally not that many chips in the market that all phones choose from (granted Apple is now in-house but still, they didn't use to be).

I think you're 85-90% right - but I wouldn't undersell the impact of Apple's proprietary W1 / H1 / H2 chips in their headphones either.

Nobody cares about those, not to the point of paying such premiums.

I mean, if there was another "commodity" processor one could just insert into their earbuds and write some awesome software, why hasn't anyone done that yet? If you could offer the same features as AirPods (and other Apple headphones) at half the cost, you'd make serious money. People might not care too much about those technical features of them, but I know they care about consistently good performance, and the AirPods have so far delivered on that promise. Making something that works just as well, but doesn't require you to be locked in to the Apple ecosystem, would absolutely change the game for the headphone market.

There are a lot of alternatives noted for their performance. Jabra, Bose, Sony all have earned high marks from reviewers.

I’ve got the extremely well regarded Sony WH-1000XM4s. Getting them to switch between devices is an absolute pain in the ass compared to Apple’s fairly seamless handoff.

The custom Bluetooth processor seems to be letting Apple solve a lot of pain points that every other Bluetooth headphone just makes you live with.

"Upgrading" to my Sony's was painful. Beforehand I had some cheap Chinese brand that had the best bluetooth experience of my life.

I could switch devices and the one I was using could connect up easy without having to do the whole disconnect from the other device first thing.

I suspect on connect it was also issuing a disconnect to the previous sender as well because I never had an issue of a device reconnecting overtop.

Multiple devices could be paired at the same time and it just latched on to whichever device tried to connect last.

Even apple doesn't do well at this. Apple also has all kinds of weird bugs and sound issues. They are still nice for walking around though so I won't be ditching them anytime soon.

Diminishing returns are very real when it comes to BT headphones. The cutoff seems to be around 100 USD/EUR. If you care about sound quality, you are probably using AUX still. An alternative is the Fiio bluetooth/aux adapter that solves the bluetooth part but still has an acceptable sound quality.

The ones I had were around 60usd and had good enough sound for me. The only problem I had with them was the headband was built for small heads. Broke in the same spot twice. After second I just took the refund and got some Sony's.

Sound is pretty nice upgrade though even for someone like me that can't tell. Noise cancelling helps a lot over COVID too.

I have one of each within my family. Sound quality wise they’re better than AirPods but the usability and seamlessness sucks real bad. The good reviews are all like ones that rate the XPS as the best laptop because the reviewers think “a MacBook is not a laptop” and similarly the Jabra is the best Bluetooth headphone because to the reviewer the AirPod isn’t even competition. Which is true if you are on Android anyway.

I own airpods max and so far I didn't notice anything special about them. They're just ordinary headphones. They have noise suppression, but it's hardly a unique feature. Head tracking is a gimmick and I disabled it almost immediately.

Nobody cares about the processors themselves but they very much care what they do. One of the biggest things I constantly hear about from others with AirPods is that they connect seamlessly to all their Apple devices and switch automatically as they use them. That's only possible because of these chips.

I don't agree, but even if someone thinks they don't care they actually do since the custom silicon is no small part of why the multi-device stuff works so well. Not to mention the noise cancellation, transparency mode, etc. Sure, you buy because of the characteristics, but the characteristics are due to the custom silicon.

Oh, so they make their own chips, they make both AirPods and MacBook, the OS, but then why do they fail to connect 20% of the time? I think the product should be capable of making sound 99.9%, not 80% of the time. AirPods might be the king of BT devices but it's a beggar in the house of wired.

The house of wires was discontinued. They are lords of a rotten borough.

I have to argue with mine once a day at least but that’s better than every fucking time I want to do anything with every other device I’ve owned.

Also, I have no wires now other than a couple of chargers. It is freedom. Never do I have to untangle some EarPods from my keys five times a day.

Apple's key to success is that they're the best hardware company at doing software.

Which company is the best software company? I used to have an answer, but don’t anymore.

Probably Google, but it's hard to tell since most of the good stuff is hidden (backend infrastructure).

I'm going to say Microsoft. For all the faults, they produce good software consistently across a very wide range of domains.

The unsung part of this is that Bluetooth is a ridiculously complicated protocol. Basically everyone has a broken implementation of it. If someone asked me to choose whether to write either a C++ compiler or a bluetooth stack, I would probably choose the C++ compiler.

There are very few people who are both passionate about the problem of wireless devices and who understand all of the stack enough to make a driver that is fast, resilient, and standards-compliant. I hear that Apple sometimes bends the "standards-compliant" part - which is why their airpods only work with their devices.

Apple has done a great job giving this team of <100 engineers the space they need to succeed, and it's a huge feat. Most other companies don't even try to write their own BT stack (for good reason) and just use a vendor solution, so their user experience is subpar.

> which is why their airpods only work with their devices.

I thought I heard Airpods were the best Bluetooth headset on Android, too

My Airpods work great with my Windows laptop.

I use Airpods with my PC, iPad, MacBook, and Android phone. It works well on all of them. Switching sucks though. Basically have to forget and re-pair every time.

Still better than the competition though. Had a Sony Xm something or another before, but the Airpods are way easier and more comfortable by a huge margin.

I like to make the distinction between companies that treat software as a necessary evil vs. a competitive advantage.

It's not just the software but how all of it comes together and leadership priorities. https://www.fastcompany.com/90748492/apple-airpods-pro-creat...

> It took a long time to realize that the most compelling devices have good, well maintained software.

I continue to hold the view that Tesla's success is because they are really a software company, not a car company.

I'm sorry but it's the case.

I'd prefer a hardware switch over pure software anyway.

A toggle on the headphones -- a slide switch for Device A or B.

(Auto software switching would be better if it worked 99%+ of the time.)

My Airpods Max connect to 5 different devices daily.

What kind of switch would you suggest they use?

A 3-bit DIP switch would do the job.

A DIP switch, really? Could you imagine the horrendous usability. Plus all that mechanical movement will surely cause early failure. Much better to just have some solder pads. With the cost and performance of USB/battery irons these days surely most users can keep one handy. This completely solves the challenge of accidental pairing and helps the user ensure each device switch is contemplated and intentional.

I assume this is sarcasm. If not, there is much to learn about making consumers happy.

Aside from /s, dial like this looks good. https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k480-multi...

My first bluetooth earbuds were the Sony Ericsson HBH-DS970 back in 2006. Back then batteries were bigger so it had a pendant that hung down, and on that it had a little display on it that would show the names of the paired devices and you could select one. It worked great.

A cord used to plug into whichever device you want to listen to would also work and be correct 100% of the time… barring user error.

I lost my original Airpods about a month before the AirPods Pro came out. It took about a month to get my AirPods Pro. During that 2 month period I used wired headphones and hated every single minute of it. The cord was always in the way. Once, on a crowded bus, the cord got caught and the headphones were pulled out and ended up dragging on the bus floor. I tossed them and bought a cheap pair of Bluetooth headphones for the final 2 weeks. They were crap but at least there was no cord dangling about.

The AirPods are the best recent example of people who haven’t tried the new thing crapping on it saying the old ways work fine. Multiple times people have crapped on the AirPods and I gift them one and they realize how amazing it is to not have wires at all.

Last time this happened was with the OG iPhone of course. Still remember Maddox’s tear down of the iPhone lol. https://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=iphone/

Back in December 2019, the company I worked for gave everyone AirPods Pros for Xmas. Lots of people tried them and complained a lot. I have a pair and rarely use them, only with devices that don't have a headphone jack.

Having no wires was not life changing, I don't really care about that. Running out of battery sucks though. The noise canceling really is great, but they never last a full flight, so I always need backup headphones.

A backup cable is definitely still a useful feature on Bluetooth headsets. My Bose QC-35s seem to only be able to pair with two devices at a time.

I always switch to the cable if I want to use them with my Linux laptop as repairing is a pain in the arse.

I've also found the cable to be very useful for anything that requires both sound quality and a microphone at the same time. Over Bluetooth and even on my Apple stuff they seem to switch to the headset profile to use the mic and the sound then becomes aweful.

FWIW, pairing by connecting a cable is not the worst way to do it. As long as it still works when you disconnect the cable.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com