Why bother with warrants when cops can buy location data for under $10k?
theregister.com
theregister.com
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/09/cops-wanted-to-k...
What is most distasteful to me is that both the vendor and the police try hard to hide the fact that they are using it. Why hide it if it’s legal? Odds are because they don’t want to be a squeaky wheel that gets greased.
Legal and moral are two different things, and the police is a public service. Public trust and perception are important because they give legitimacy to government.
Agree with your statement.
I thought Stingrays forced all nearby cell phones to connect to them and downgraded the connection to 2G so encryption was not a protection.
What am I missing?
My interpretation was that LEOs who use Stingrays were required to sign NDAs and the company as well as one of the three-letter-agencies that facilitated them didn’t want the information in public court records.
It’s possible that there is something unconstitutional going on. It’s possible that having the technical specs in court would allow foreign terrorists (for example) to understand how they are being caught.
Whatever it is, it seems incompatible with a democratic republic government. But the democratically elected representatives don’t seem interested in reigning it in.
They also pick up conversations which have later been used as evidence: https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/news/crime/2012/01/11/...
The goal is to use illegal means, but not have evidence of that illegal means in court.
This is what has been described as "parallel construction". A quaint turn of phrase for when the police use criminal practices to prosecute "criminals".
Welcome to the future
Edit: Please forgive American English phrasing. [This practice is described as...]
I’m curious if the identifier correlation methods would stand up in court…
True, if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear. That's why it doesn't matter if the police have the data.
Actually, that's bullshit, as is "Why hide if it's legal?". The obvious answer is that The Court of Public Opinion will convict on many counts that are both legal and ethical.
this is very much like a 5 year old asking parent one for something, hearing no, then quietly asking parent 2 trying to double down to get a yes answer; except its much more serious
There is no party to vote for to stop this.
Warrants are needed when the requesting entity doesn't have access.
While I agree, I do understand that legally this is somewhat tricky. As long as the data remains publicly available, I can't see how to outlaw law enforcement from getting their hands on it, if we ban the agencies from buying it you'll just see fusion centers or private outreach groups buy it and gift the police.
So do we ban the sale of such data? I'm in favor of that, but it's both going to be really difficult to pass a law that can run ads saying "this bill wants to triple the cost of your cell service" and outlawing the sale could give an advantage to those capabilities of collecting on their own.
Which leaves us with banning the collection of that data, another thing I'm in favor of that I think will be impossible to pass.
if there is no warrant demended then cart blanche should apply, the cops can then buy beg phone your friend, rent the apartment beside you etc. for the purpose of discovery pertaining to scope
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[!] not the HN lexical strawman but more like an FFL strawman
Using this data should be illegal, but I don't see any quick and easy solutions. The data is public, and trying to bar police from accessing public data without a warrant is tricky.
I would rather see the sale of location data made illegal. Then legitimate businesses would stop selling it.
The point the person you are replying to is trying to make is that there is no "search and seizure" happening at all. They can get around needing a warrant because no private, personal property is being accessed or seized. All of the information being accessed is not personal, private data owned by the individual. It is data that is owned by a company that is willingly selling it.
Fixing this requires such data to be regulated as personal data that businesses can only be custodians on, not owners.
The police can’t use a contract broker as a middle man to do what they can’t do themselves. For example they can’t hire someone else to knock down your door and search your house. But that has nothing to do with buying data about you from a third party that legally has it.
The problem here is this data should not be sold to Joe Q Public.
That said: Joe Q Public can't arrest me, can't take my shit under the vale of asset forfeiture, can't murder me and walk away under the thinnest of pretenses, can't jail me for a decade before I even see a trial...
Police have much more power than Joe Q Public and must be held to a correspondingly higher standard of responsibility if they are to exist.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/08/fog-revealed-guided-to...
and when you say i have nothing to discuss with you, and no business to conduct, goodnight, and leave me to my home and family they are supposed to similarily say sorry to bother you and leave.
you have the idea of a warrant on the button, as permission to violate certain legal rights.
A warrant protects your belongings from search and seizure. The unfortunate truth is that when you give data away… you give it away. The internet gives people a false sense of privacy because they can use it from inside of their house. But, telling Google where you parked your car during a bank robbery is no different than telling a newspaper reporter where you parked your car during a bank robbery.
The cloud is, and always has been, someone else’s computer.
In the absence of a financial incentives companies will be less willing to hand over that data and the traditional requirement of a warrant will be utilized as it should be.
Let me give a hypothetical example, witness says the see a Ford Bronco leaving a murder scene. Police use this data to find all people in the area at the time of the crime. They then look to see which of those people in the area at the time are registered owners of a Ford Bronco. However, instead of presenting this data they used in court court to see was in the area they will then for instance search for instance traffic camera footage. Moreover, since they have detailed location information now know what traffic cameras to check or what gas stations to subpoena for camera footage ect.. Then they probably get a warrant for that persons car and house or start watching that person ect...
However, what gets presented at trial is the Witness saying they saw a Ford Bronco and the camera footage. Nothing about the detailed phone tracking information. Basically parallel construction allows the LEO and the prosecutor avoid what is colloquially called fruit of the poisoned tree.
Wiki article on parallel construction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
Then cross reference et cetera.
There was the illegal part, at the beginning. The police could have just put in the effort and checking on information from various channels, determined the same information. However, that requires effort and occasionally intelligent actors. So, instead, they do the illegal part, scrub that from the record, and pretend they figured it out, with a pencil and a pad!
If we take this as a non-rhetorical/actual question: to use the evidence in court it may be necessary for it to have been obtained under warrant.
"Why bother with search warrants when people don't bother locking their front doors before going out?"
I, ANAL and all that.
I wonder why every news on privacy issue in the United States try to make connection with abortion.
Won't this make the privacy argument more fragmented?
Abortion rights in the US were originally based on privacy (the government's right to tell a woman what she could or could not do with her body). Overturning that widened government authority not just over abortion, but 1001 other issues linked to the same core finding. Laws banning sodomy were struck down on the same basis: what two consenting adults do behind closed doors that doesn't affect third parties are a violation of the "right to privacy". The same for interracial marriage.
The same ruling has implications here because the data in question "belongs" to the phone company. But government buying it might violate individuals' right to privacy. Only individuals' right to privacy is now very curtailed.
People think Roe vs Wade was an abortion ruling, but it was really a privacy one, and by overturning it SCOTUS has opened a very large number of social issues to be re-litigated.
I agree it's a stretch to tie it to abortion (and maybe an appeal to emotion/politics?). But there is a link. I wish more people thought about all these issues (plus NSA spying and social media and 101 other things) in terms of one overall right to privacy. It's sort of the issue of our times (which I think West Wing predicted 20+ years ago)
But now that the publicly available data of women seeking abortions can be used to send them to jail, arguments 1 and 2 are easier to disprove. I'm not aware of any previous pro-privacy argument with such clear connection between cause and consequence.
Perhaps the move towards SBOM will help us identify which libraries sell position location to which brokers so there can be more transparency and competition for privacy features.
It’s sad that legislators are asleep at the wheel here and that the FTC / State Attorneys General are so slow to sue.
Every app that asks for location data sells it. That includes every single weather app. In some cases, it is a bigger revenue stream than the ads they show.