Hacker News Reader

I have a couple of questions about ingredients in your description. Zinc oxide as you mention tends to be pasty white, like Desitin for diaper rash which uses zinc as one of the active ingredients. This is likely to be a really dumb question with an obvious answer but since zinc has been shown to affect nerves (it is used as an anti-itch ingredient since it tends to dampen nerve responses and can cause nerve damage if dosage is too high) do you anticipate problems with long-term regular usage of zinc as a component of your sunscreen or other products? I believe that since it is already a replacement for the oxybenzone components of earlier sunscreens that you use it since it works. Down the line though, what do you think about the safety of using it?

The other question I have comes from my background as a geoscientist. Your usage of iron oxides for pigmentation seems genius here. Iron oxides occur naturally in shades from bright yellows to reddish-blacks. It seems that using iron oxide as a pigment (mankind has used this for millenia) is the most perfect way to enable exact skin tone matching. My question though is this - in your studies have you found any tendency of the iron oxides to stain clothing on exposure to sweat or through normal wear and tear? I know that iron staining of laundry and porcelain for people who get their water from wells with high iron content is usually addressed in the water softening/conditioning operation before distribution to faucets in the household. Do you anticipate problems with iron staining on clothing? It's a dumb question and probably a non-issue since you have obviously done a lot of work in this space.

Congratulations to you all and best of luck in your efforts to improve and create safe skin care options for people of color.

Love these questions! Regarding zinc oxide, the limits in the US, Canada, and Europe are 25% Zinc oxide in any product (to avoid toxicity) and we are at 17%, which allows us to stay well under that limit, but still get the SPF 30 claim. You're also absolutely right that we are replacing oxybenzone, homosalate and octocrylene - all banned in the EU - which have been linked to cancer, hormone disruption, and skin allergies. Longer term, it is possible we will find another alternative to zinc oxide, but at this time it is hands down the safest SPF ingredient to be using. All regulatory bodies will agree.

Your question about iron oxide is super interesting! Like any tinted product (even artificially tinted like a foundation), there is always some risk to the product getting on and staining clothing or accessories. Because our product is primarily meant to be used on the face, we are less concerned about this. We may create another version of this product for body, and will need to be much more conscious of the possibility of staining. We also formulated the product to have a fast "dry-down" time, meaning it absorbs relatively quickly into the skin. After a minute or two, it should not be rubbing off easily on clothing or other accessories.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. You are obviously trying to cover all the bases with product ingredients and that will hopefully position you for success. Good luck to you all!

Thank you for asking great questions :)

Wouldn't a 17% zinc oxide concentration give you an SPF of 27, not 30?

As a poc, I ‘m wondering what makes your products different than the other countless skin care company targeted at poc that have been started these past few years? Everyone is riding the trend and the meme that we’re being left out of big brands’ doesn’t hold up anymore. And please don’t tell me WYz dermatologist works with us and we use the best ingredients, everyone says that, do you have an actual differentiator?

You're absolutely right - there are plenty of companies out there targeting POC and claiming to have the best ingredients and dermatologists. Once big differentiator is how we've curated the product line. We are both analytics people by background and actually scraped information from Facebook communities and Reddit threads discussing top skincare issues and product needs for POC. We found that hyperpigmentation was the number one talked about issue for people of color after acne. Next was sunscreen, then ingrown hairs, dark eye circles, deodorant, and hyperpigmentation for the body. By focusing on the actual problems and not just the marketing buzzwords (dermatologists, ingredients that trend well on Google), we've been able to take an unbiased, more scientific approach to product development.

I had no idea this was such an issue, so I wanted to say kudos for explaining it so well on the site! One question that remains for me is: do the product requirements change depending on how dark the skin is, or is it more a case that one solution will work for all dark skinned people, and another for all light skinned people?

That is a great question! There is definitely some variation to what will work on very dark skin versus more medium skin. Getting a prescription solution from a dermatologist is usually the best way to get something very custom to your specific skin needs. But we know not everyone can afford to see a dermatologist - and shouldn't have to go that route to see results. What we've done is created a retail solution that will show improvement on all darker skin tones. The speed and magnitude of those results could vary person to person.

I appreciate the level of information provided by Paula's Choice brand of skin care products. With your emphasis on science, I hope you can provide product descriptions that explain the purpose of every ingredient and show the research behind the active ingredients.

That is the plan! We too love the detail and transparency of Paula's Choice!

My (black) wife is very much into skincare(addiction) and even mixing her own stuff from basic ingredients. While getting ready-made products for black skin (or hair…) in Germany has been getting easier, it’s still hard. Do you have any plans for availability here in the EU?

And a fun anecdote for zinc oxide sun protection, I once accidentally bought one of those. It looked slightly questionable on my pasty white skin, but on her, it looked hilarious, she turned purple :D

Your wife sounds amazing! Last summer, Madhu and I tried to mix our own dark spot serum, and it turned into a rubbery clump. We learned two things: 1) The power of stabilizers and emollients, and 2) That we should probably bring on some qualified chemists and dermatologists. Thankfully we did :)

We do have plans to expand to Europe. Our Sephora retail relationship is specific to the US and Canada, so we are going to start there. However, Canada regulation is very similar to EU regulation, so expanding to Europe will be the easiest, most natural next step for us.

Your story is so common! I hope your wife is able to get her hands on a non-purple zinc sunscreen soon :)

Love this story. It's the untold story that so many people in the beauty industry do not hear! It's not okay to look purple. We're aiming to change that. Would love to hear what products she's using / what she's mixing. Please tell her to email me - madhu [at] lionpose [dot] com.

She’s mainly taking inspiration from the /r/skincareaddiction subreddit and black youtubers.

I don't have any ideas about skin care products. My comment is mainly to appreciate the sincere and open response from the founders for each and every question. Wishing Lion Pose a great success.

That’s very kind of you. Thanks for the support!

Thanks so much!

What countries are the highest consumers of skin bleaching products, I personally know they are huge in the Philippines - and obviously huge other places, but PH is the only place I have personal experience with seeing people (an ex) buy a lot of this stuff.

Also, what are the water-table issues with these (both the bad ones and the ones youre working on?

Sunscreen is VERY bad for fish... and we should be putting less chemicals in the world....

So, can you attest to the Marine Safety of your products, or will they "turn the frogs gay" so to speak.

Finally - I think it would be great it you can find a sustainable bamboo container (an actual cylinder of bamboo, not the laminated strips. (I know an environmental lawyer in the PH who represents the bamboo industry, at least she did - Ill have to ask...)

But it would be sad if you are selling $3,000,000 worth of disposable plastic bullshit.

Maybe instead you can work on a refill option with Sephora, or at least a reclaimation of program (if you know anything about women who buy stuff from ULTA... they love their ULTA points... Not sure about Sephora points -- but get a reclaimation program for points going...

Good job though, the world needs this. AND if you can help reduce pollution in SEA countries, that would be a boon... the lack of environmental responsibility in SEA is utterly attrocious, and like I said $3,000,000 worth of garbage containers when you sell is no bueno - regardless of your skin product.

Edit:

Sephora's largest international suppliers (by shipment count, where 'shipment' is manifest of anything across a (sea/land) based shipment through customs...

https://www.importyeti.com/company/sephora-usa

> What countries are the highest consumers of skin bleaching products

This isn't a ranked list, but skin bleaching is unfortunately popular in India, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Nigeria, Senegal, and many other countries in addition to the Philippines.

> Sunscreen is VERY bad for fish...

You're totally right about certain sunscreen ingredients being bad for the environment! In 2018, Hawaii became the first state to ban the sale of sunscreens containing oxybenzone and octinoxate, because they harm coral reefs and ocean wildlife. We do not include these ingredients in our sunscreen.

> Maybe instead you can work on a refill option with Sephora

Our serum is actually being produced in a refillable bottle. For operational reasons (it is very difficult to manage refills from an inventory planning standpoint), we won't offer refills from Day 1, but the plan is to offer refills when we have more sales data.

> they love their ULTA points

Sephora customers also love their Sephora Points :)

> Good job though, the world needs this.

Thank you!!

Looks awesome! You mentioned that there’s not a lot of regulation of skincare products, but doesn’t the FDA regulate sunscreen pretty heavily? Like the US is behind Europe/Asia in sunscreens we offer because we’re not allowed to use any of the modern ingredients.

I typically purchase my sunscreen from Japan because they allow modern sunscreen ingredients.

You're totally right! Sunscreen is indeed regulated by the FDA, but things like acid serums, exfoliators, creams, cleansers, and lotions are not.

Our concerns about lack of regulation are two-fold: (1) That products that contain very mild ingredients (like fruit extracts) are being sold to people with claims that are unsubstantiated. For example: Claiming to reduce dark spots, when there is little scientific evidence to support it. (2) That products with very harsh ingredients (25% AHA / BHA peels, for example) are being sold without much warning and education that they could cause irritation on certain skin types.

TIL black people need suncream.

Apparently the pigmentation is at best equivalent to SPF 13.

Related article I came across.

https://www.healthline.com/health/black-people-need-sunscree...?

You're absolutely right! Nice article - thanks for sharing

> At Lion Pose, we are on a mission to end skin bleaching

If that's what customers want and are ready to pay for, why not deliver it to them?

> Our proprietary blend of acids (glycolic, lactic, tranexamic, and azelaic) exfoliate and resurface the skin

Uh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azelaic_acid#Whitening_agent

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28669590/

> "As interest in skin beauty increases, the development of new skin whitening agents has attracted substantial attention; however, the action mechanism of the agents developed so far remains largely unknown. Tranexamic acid (TXA) is commonly being used to reduce melanin synthesis"

Maybe you are already delivering what the market wants, just by a different name :)

Hi there! Traditionally, skin bleaching products contain mercury, hydroquinone, and steroids. Mercury is a toxic heavy metal. Hydroquinone in particular has been banned from OTC products - see article here for some of the reasons why: https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-w....

You're completely right that some of our ingredients are specifically included to fade/lighten (whatever terminology you want to use) dark spots, because that is an outcome our customers are looking for. However, we have chosen ingredients like azelaic acid and tranexamic acid that are much safer compared to existing solutions.

Regarding tyrosinase inhibitors like tranexamic acid: There is a scientific reason why these ingredients must be included. People of color tend to get more dark spots and scars because darker skin has a tendency to produce more melanin when irritated. So when you get hormonal acne, for instance, the skin becomes irritated and inflamed. The inflammation causes your melanin production to go into overdrive, resulting in the spot or scar that comes after. Including tyrosinase inhibitors like Tranexamic acid (at safe levels) is not meant to whiten overall skin tone. It is meant to prevent the overproduction of melanin which causes spots.

Hope that helps!

> Hydroquinone in particular has been banned from OTC products - see article here for some of the reasons why

Indeed, and it was done has part of the omnibus Covid relief bill IIRC.

After having reviewed all the evidence, it doesn't seem to be such a clear cut case to me as it was for say mercury.

I have melasma, and I was happily using hydroquinone OTC products. The only noticeable difference this ban has made to me is to gatekeep the products with a costly prescription.

> There is a scientific reason why these ingredients must be included

Totally!

BTW, you may want to look at others such as glycyrrhizic acid.

Totally agree there is a much more clear case for mercury being toxic/dangerous..

Thanks so much! You actually hit the nail on the head :). People do want solutions but they want safer ones.

Skin bleaching refers to the use of toxic chemicals that are endocrine disruptors. Here's a great article outlining the issue: https://www.cnn.com/specials/world/white-lies-skin-whitening.

We're working on safer solutions for dark spots that do not contain hydroquinone and mercury.

My 'favorite' part as a dark skinned person is that the copy on the website makes out hyperpigmentation to be 'bad' in its push to somehow appeal to darker people.

I like my skin color. I don't really care about my 'hyperpigmentation', lol. WTF is that?

Also, maybe women are different, but zinc oxide sunscreen works great, and I don't really care about the white streaks on my skin. There's way better things to do at the beach than worry about my sunscreen.

> 'hyperpigmentation', lol. WTF is that?

Large dark patches, typically on the face. It’s seen almost exclusively in women because it’s hormonal and is believed to be predominantly a side-effect of birth-control medication. It often appears after pregnancy.

Ah, this section?

> As both new and old brands jump on the now-trending bandwagon of skincare for colored skin, most are simply adding token brown models to their campaigns and “brownwashing” existing products— changing up an ingredient, putting “for dark skin” on the labels, and claiming to target problems like hyperpigmentation.

Right, like "problems like hyperpigmentation" does sound like that. Amusing, freckles are a form of hyperpigmentation and I don't think they're considered unattractive.

Still, if people want to take action on this aspect of their faces, then better they use safer tools.

Hi all! I hear you - we certainly don't want to be a brand that wants to alter anything naturally unique about your skin (like freckles). Our products are more so meant to target acne scars, melasma (which occurs post pregnancy), dark circles and dark patches - all of which are forms of hyperpigmentation you are not typically born with.

Hyperpigmentation after scarring and acne is something every skin color gets, but it's particularly prominent in brown skin tones.

The 'delta' between your normal skin and that scarred skin can be large for this skin type. Uneven skin tone and patches are a reminder of your scars, and they last way longer.

Had it as a teenager, it was more unpleasant than the acne.

How does it compare to Adapalene gel ? In past, I have had incredible results with Adapalene gel for my light brown skin. It helped with hyperpigmentations + skin pores size. Only problem with it is that it’s not available in drugstore without prescription in Canada. I love Adapalene gel but due these issues in Canada I am looking for alternatives. I would love to hear how your product compares with Adapalene gel for hyperpigmentations and skin pore size reduction.

What are the physical differences between a dark and light skin other than color?

[edit] Oh I get it wrong. It's not just a creme for dark skin. I see it is a product to bleach dark skin but without bleach?

I don't know what I'm reading here anymore. Basically healthy bleach for dark skin? I feel a bit deceived though. Thought you were against bleaching, but it's just the bleach itself that you're against.

Hi there! Our products are not meant to whiten the overall skin tone - we are absolutely against bleaching for the sake of whitening the face or body. Our products are made to combat hyperpigmentation - which are targeted dark spots or scars that arise from hormonal changes and acne. In order to do that we have to include certain safe acids that exfoliate the skin (to remove spots) and prevent the overproduction of melanin (which causes the spots to begin with).

This response from an earlier comment might help:

https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=32668422&goto=item%3Fi...

Skin bleaching isn't just disgusting because it can be biologically toxic, but also because it's part of a white supremacist colonialist narrative that black is ugly and whiteness is beautiful. As a company with a profit motive, do you see any risks with the interface between capitalism and anti-racist struggle? What are your approaches to mitigate these risks? Do you plan to support anti-racist struggle more broadly?

I 100% agree. This is a very nuanced and difficult topic to discuss as a for-profit company. But I'll say this:

First and foremost, we want to spread awareness about skin bleaching/whitening practices. This includes its ties to white supremacy and systemic racism. It's astounding how few people know about it given how pervasive it is. Second, we want to provide safe alternative solutions for people of color who wish to fade dark spots and scars without toxic bleaching ingredients. Third, we are a business, so of course we want to sell product.

We definitely plan to support anti-racism more broadly; however, we are still determining where and how to best support with the resources we have. I'd love to hear any ideas you may have on this topic!

People had preference for light skin since ancient time. Light skin meant you were high status and didn’t had to work in the fields.

Is it non comedogenic? Would the ingredients rate well on : https://incidecoder.com/ ?

Do you have data specific to clinical professionals?

My wife is a plastic surgeon and I'd like to link to some of your content specific to providers, contraindications, etc.

Hi there! Are you looking for clinical testing results for our products? Or something else? Just want to make sure I understand what you’re looking for. Thanks!

Yes, on the clinical testing results.

Thanks!

I assume HN leans more male so I'm inclined to ask, have you given any thought to skincare products for men?

And do you have any plans to expand from direct to consumer skincare? Maybe something to address medical texts exclusively depicting white skin?

You're absolutely right and we have considered skincare products for men! A lot of our language is women-focused because they are still the majority of the skincare buying audience. But fun fact - skincare for men is one of the fastest growing segments in Sephora. And we tried to make our products as gender neutral as possible, so we aren't alienating our male audience.

I would say 0 pictures of men on the website could be considered at least superficially, alienating.

Nothing explicitly wrong with a feminine-first vibe, but I don't see anything particularly masculine, or even neutral on the site. Seems more like a repackaging of traditional white women marketing, but for darker skin.

I hear you and appreciate the candid feedback!

Thanks for the reply! It's pretty cool to see a physical product succeed in YC!

One thought, you mentioned Skin Type 3-6 in one of the products. Do you have a description of that anywhere? Most Google results for "skin type" focus mainly on how oily your skin is. Having some sort of literature directly on the site may help. Though tbf I'm speaking as a man, I'm not sure how well known it is for your target audience.

Thank you!

And we are referring to the Fitzpatrick Skin Types, which are definitely not well-known. Great tip to clarify this better in our messaging.

Some more about Fitzpatrick Skin Types: https://www.healthline.com/health/beauty-skin-care/fitzpatri...

I'm a mixed-race b/w man...if the product works you can send me emails that address me as "Queen," and I won't care. Based on the Fitzpatrick scale you linked below (hadn't heard of that), I think I'm a 5/V. Sounds like this will work for me?

Sounds like it will work great for you!

Hydroquinone is less dangerous than sunscreen. You shouldn’t take away the freedom of people to choose their own skin tone by making things sound more dangerous than they are.

Our goal is to provide the safest ingredients that are still effective in fading dark spots and protecting skin from damage. Studies show there are safer options than hydroquinone (azelaic acid, for example), so we have chosen to include those ingredients in our products.

Is Hacker News turning into Product Hunt for YC, and is YC turning into a CPG incubator? If this weren’t a YC company, it would be flagged and voted off the site in an instant.

If this is the future of HN, there’s going to be a market opening for a replacement!

Future? This has been an implicit feature of HN for years. It is in no way new. That is in fact one of the perks of YC, being able to post a Launch HN.

Op is discussing the lack of tech/innovation/etc from this start up.

HN is about geeks gratifying our intellectual curiosity- There's some interesting topics brought up by this post.

Science of skincare, underserved markets, sociological phenomena.

But all that aside, plenty of geeks with darker skin found it interesting enough to click, myself included.

Launch HNs are curated threads that we help YC startups write, and then place on the front page. This is one of three formal things (the other two are job ads and orange usernames for alumni) that HN gives back to YC in exchange for funding it. This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html, which is linked at the bottom of every page. There are also lots of past explanations here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu....

We started doing Launch HNs in early 2017. You can see the complete list here: https://news.ycombinator.com/launches. The advice we give to YC startups about launching on HN is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/yli.html. The logistical parts only apply to YC cos, but the communication advice applies to everyone.

You're certainly right that not all these startups would make the front page through upvotes only, but we do work hard to write them up in a way that we hope will genuinely interest the community, and many of them end up getting a lot of upvotes and staying on the front page a long time.

I don't get it, just don't bleach your skin, was it hard to understand?

Also what do you mean by people of color? The skin tone of human being is a continuous spectrum from milky pale to midnight dark and every shade in between. I supposed as skin care professionals you must have a scientific way to quantify that, in stead of just "people of color".

You are right that skin tone is a continuous spectrum. Dermatologists and skincare experts use something called Fitzpatrick Skin Types, which is a scale from 1-6, 1 being very light skin and 6 being very dark skin: https://www.healthline.com/health/beauty-skin-care/fitzpatri...

We have formulated our products with ingredients ideal for Fitzpatrick Skin Types 3-6 (medium to very dark skin).

I'm afraid you crossed into breaking the site guidelines with this comment. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit more to heart? Note these ones:

"Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine."

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

Edit: at the risk of going offtopic, perhaps it would be helpful to explain in a bit more detail:

When you post "just don't bleach your skin, was it hard to understand", that's not only a shallow dismissal, it indicates that you haven't taken the time to read the thread, where they've talked multiple times about the skin conditions their product treats (I know literally nothing about this, except that I did read the thread).

Second, what you posted about 'people of color' definitely felt like cross-examination to me, i.e. hostile questioning designed to 'gotcha' rather than curious conversation. "People of color", for better or worse (it's a rather stilted phrase) is the term that 'polite society' has settled on for the time being—in other words, it's used by millions if not hundreds of millions of people. It's not as if these founders invented it, and challenging them about whether the phrase has any meaning points the thread into a social-controversy flamewar, which is off topic in the context of a startup launch.

Actually, when I re-read your comment, the last sentence doesn't seem hostile if I ignore the previous sentences. If you had stuck to that and maybe added a bit of neutral context to explain why you were asking, it would have been fine - and fortunately nphatak has already give you an informative answer.

You might be reading too much into it (or not). As a person of color myself, I didn't find the comment as if designed to "gotcha" as much as to clarify from a place of some (imho understandable) frustration. I think nphatack's answer does a good job at clarifying by specifying the range in the Fitzpatrick scale.

In my case, being mixed race, I could fall anywhere between 2 and 4 depending on the time of the year and my tanning. The clarification is helpful. "Lion Pose" also evokes Black culture so I would assume the intention is to target mainly the Black community (of which I consider myself part of, anyway) whilst people of colour is a broader group so it's a valid question.

It can also be confusing (and for some frustrating, but I don't find it so myself) because "people of colour", especially in the USA, generally means anything that's not a 1 on that scale (e.g. some latinos or mediterraneans), so the ambiguity can easily be avoided by using darker skin vs fairer skin, which also has no political or ideological connotations, generally.

Personally I think this is a great brand and one I hope also makes it across the pond to Europe. We need more, not fewer, beauty and skincare products aimed at treating darker skins.

I read the original post but not much of the discussion. I was referring to the anecdote story at the beginning of the post. I believe even in the US, bleaching your skin has been an obsolete practice so I am not sure which point the anecdote was supposed to make.

Millions or hundred of millions of people using the phase "people of color" doesn't make it correct, especially in a skincare context. I don't call myself colored (I am Chinese) and my black friends don't call themselves colored, my Indian friends don't call themselves colored. This is a nerd's forum so I tried to be nerdy about it.

Re 'people of color', correctness wasn't my point; offtopicness was.

> I was referring to the anecdote story at the beginning of the post. I believe even in the US, bleaching your skin has been an obsolete practice so I am not sure which point the anecdote was supposed to make.

If you had posted that originally, instead of a shallow dismissal that came across as cross-examining, it would have been fine. Even better, you could have posted "I believe even in the US, bleaching your skin has been an obsolete practice" and followed it up with a curious question. You may have been unsure which point they were making, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. Why not simply ask for it politely? Your entire comment was the antithesis of that, which is why I responded to it in detail.

Launch HN: Lion Pose (YC W21) – Safe and effective skin care for people of color