Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation | Hacker News Reader

Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

medicalxpress.com

142 points6ren105 comments

The real question is whether it's a good thing to stop "mind wandering" when it hasn't reached the level of disorder. From the perspective of evolution, it almost certainly has a purpose. Paul Graham pointed out that its probably useful for problem solving:

http://www.paulgraham.com/top.html

I wonder if it would be good to have the ability to better focus one's self when one's mind is wandering into unproductive subjects (e.g. agonizing over an ex) without necessarily getting to the point where your default mode has been changed so much as to prevent insights in the shower (and instead being deeply aware of the hot water).

I've pondered the same thing. However, personally from meditation I feel I have greater focus, a clearer mind, and less stress (or a much better handle on stress), which I couldn't imagine being without today. Concerning shower-insights -- I find myself having less mind wandering in the shower, and instead more deliberate focused insights.

Then what evolutionary purpose do you think mind-wandering serves? We clearly tend to think about various current problems of ours (whether technical, social, or other) when our mind wanders; it's not an accident.

I'd say we're half evolved. We have this facility and don't know how to properly control it. It's a byproduct of some other facility (the ability to communicate).

I think we're always "half evolved". Our minds and bodies are an amalgam of "good enough" traits for overcoming yesteryear's evolutionary challenges, not entirely suited for today's challenges.

Totally agree.

I don't see any link between (1) communication and (2) my mind wandering away from my immediate surroundings and settling on an outstanding problem I have. My mind could (and occasionally does) wander over a million other things in my brain (e.g. past memories, imagining the future, or the feel of my clothes on my body) but predominantly focuses on outstanding problems, so I tend to think this is a highly purposeful adaptation.

The ability to communicate as we humans do requires the ability to abstract, be removed from reality and ponder over it, so you can articulate your problems to others. The stories in your head are just that, except you haven't verbalized them yet.

It may indeed serve a useful purpose to have a wandering mind, but as the article points out "the hallmarks of many forms of mental illness is a preoccupation with one's own thoughts", i.e. perhaps the issue is the extent to which one's mind wanders. Not all minds wander equally.

Personally, my wandering mind has been my greatest strength and my greatest weakness (anxiety, worry, jumping to conclusions, all or nothing thinking, etc.). I spend too much time in my head and not enough time grounding myself in reality to the point where there is serious disconnect in my awareness and mindfulness of situations (which has caused all kinds of serious grief in my life). Meditation has been recommended to me numerous times, and based on this article it looks like it's something I want to explore.

Perhaps a wandering mind was good enough for early hunter-gathers and only now do modern humans have specialized roles that require extreme focus? A hunter might benefit from a "wider" sense of awareness, whereas recent studies show that multitasking is counterproductive for mental tasks that require extreme focus.

I think we might be discussing two different phenomenon. It seems pretty obvious to me that the ability to focus is important. What's not clear is whether the ability to wander is also important (although I suspect it is). The claim of the article is not just that meditators are able to focus better when they try, it's that the natural, default mode for their brain is changed to reduce wandering.

I think this understanding of meditation is somewhat mistaken. The techniques of single-pointed focusing are there to help us learn how to keep our minds still, not to narrow down our field of awareness (although one might do so during a practice session).

In fact, in most Buddhist traditions, the development of stillness (shamatha) goes hand-in-hand with the development of a widening awareness (vipashyana). Modern traditions like the mindfulness movement also seem to incorporate this tandem approach.

> Then what evolutionary purpose do you think mind-wandering serves? We clearly tend to think about various current problems of ours (whether technical, social, or other) when our mind wanders; it's not an accident.

It well might be an accident. It might just be a byproduct of consciousness without any benefit on its own.

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&... This seems to bear on the implied point here: that mental focus on a problem -- perhaps unconsciously -- can be reflected in our neurobiology. (Or vice versa? Not sure whether this should be a response to P or GP)

I don't agree with this.

What you describe is rumination. Rumination has been demonstrated to be beneficial in resolving problems. Depressed people ruminate a lot, and I remember seeing at least one article (don't ask for a reference - I don't remember where) that claimed that this was because rumination worked as a tool to get us to focus on resolving a problem.

Rumination is an indication of focus, not of a wandering mind, even though it might superficially seem like wandering because we turn to rumination all the time whenever we have "spare cycles" and there is something important on our mind.

Meditation might also affect rumination in that it changes your mindset and a lot of the things that you previously thought was massively important and worth ruminating about start turning into inconsequential non-events to you, but that's entirely separate from reducing "wandering", and meditation won't stop you from ruminating on things you really care about (though it might train you to be more focused on when you do it and not let it cut into your relaxation, for example).

But what I at least think of as the mind wandering is the type of random chatter that leads you to go check Hackernews one second because it popped into your head that you hadn't checked it for five minutes, and leads you to grab a snack the next because you suddenly felt an urge for sugar, and have you sit and blankly dream about that vacation you'd wanted to book a few minutes later.

I think we need to differentiate between different types of wandering here. I think we can agree that letting our minds roam looking for creative solutions and creative questions is a good think. But it's less useful to have our minds stuck in a loop ("Peanut butter or jam? PB or J?" ad infinitum).

Anecdotal evidence based on four years of active meditation would in my case seem to indicate that the jittery loopiness lessens while the capacity for creative wandering increases.

I would conjencture that our minds are over-stimulated and hence unable settle down to make room for the truly novel.

Anecdotal evidence based on four years of active meditation would in my case seem to indicate that the jittery loopiness lessens while the capacity for creative wandering increases.

This is exactly my experience as well. After about three years of meditation I have also found that I almost never get angry any more - things that used to piss me off or frustrate me just kind of roll off now, and I can really think more objectively about them and tackle problems in a constructive way.

I think one of the keys with meditation is to become the observer of our thoughts and not self-identify with them. You are not your thoughts.

Simpler explanation could be just hormonal levels changes.

For example, increased testosterone levels correspond to increased stress tolerance. The testosterone levels increase in man and woman up to age of 35-40 years.

So if you just sit and do nothing, your body could work in favor of your mind, if you're young enough. Chances are you were.

Hmm, interesting. I can definitely see how age-related changes in the endocrine system could cause certain improvements that are similar to the effects of meditation. And being as it is that I'm still 29, that could be a factor.

But if I'm reading you correctly, you seem to imply that all the benefits mentioned could be explained away by age-related hormonal changes. I find that hard to believe based on the strong correlation I experience between active meditation practice and greatly increased mental ability. It is particularly noteworthy that I'm able to observe a clear decline in my capability to stay equanimous and focused whenever I have had longer periods away from practice, which should not be the case if we were dealing with mere age-related endocrine changes.

Long time effects like better anger control could be explained by age related endocrine changes.

Short time effects like "staying focused" could or could not be explained by that. I think I have just too little data to explain them at all. All I can do is to speculate.

So I begin speculating.

Let's say that by meditation you try to calm your mind. You lower your stress hormone, cortisol. By doing that you elevate your testosterone level.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5162836_effects-cortisol-testoster...

Does that mechanics explain meditation effects?

Myself, I prefer to walk a forty minutes or longer to boost my mind next day and to lift (pretty heavy - 160+ kg) weights for testosterone.

Both activities are scientifically proven to help mind. Aerobic exercise provides brain boosting: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=aerobic+exe... Weight lifting increases self control: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/health/research/26exer.htm...

I think I should write a presentation about all that.

Your reasoning makes sense. There's a fair amount of recent research (see "meditation" via Google Scholar) indicating that meditation does indeed reduce cortisol levels and hence that could be one pathway for its effects.

That said, mounting scientific evidence indicates that meditation also changes our brain structure in ways that have AFAIK not been observed with exercise.

For me my own experience would seem to confirm this. The benefits I observe from meditation are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from what I gain from exercise (both aerobic and heavy weights).

There's the question: are those meditation-induced changes in the brain structure beneficial?

Experienced meditation practicioners can fire almost all neurons in their brains. In MRT it looks like epileptical seizure.

So I stay on the "don't meditate, you'll be safer" side.

Interesting and provocative question. I suppose that there's no way of objectively knowing if the changes are beneficial or even safe. (Come to think of it, how would we even define beneficial?)

That said, I find your caution perhaps unwarranted. Many other circumstances are known to cause changes in brain-structure, e.g. growing up bilingual, but I think it would be rather unwarranted to warn against childhood language learning on the basis of this.

Personally I am content with the proof of my own experience; the changes I see in my own psyche and mental performance are entirely positive.

People should also be aware that meditation, while generally beneficial, does not always have a benign effect on the mind. Look up "meditation induced psychosis".

Actually the best place to learn more is probably this two-part talk from Buddhist Geeks:

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/09/bg-231-the-dark-side-of...

There is very little academic literature on meditation sickness, so this is probably the best source for information right now.

My wife just bought me a beginner's mediation class at the Peace School in Chicago. We just finished our third class. I'll write up a few notes about it later this week on my blog (http://n8.tumblr.com). But it's been pretty cool and positive. I'm surprised how challenging it is to even meditate for 5 minutes a day. Here's a good book I've been enjoying on the brain that introduces some meditation stuff and benefits http://www.amazon.com/Train-Your-Brain-Get-Happy/dp/14405118...

[I'm sleepy so bear with me.] Meditation is extremely easy - for a while. I'm interested in it, I try to do it regularly, but it's not easy to return to it every day, or during a busy day. We see a news article about it, we talk about it, some of us will try it for a while, but in a month from now, all of us will be at the same point as right now - not doing it anymore. It's hard to stress how important is to practice regularly, as then it starts to be really effective. In my life, I'm returning to meditation in waves, in short periods of practice, but for some (possibly material, possibly immaterial) reason, I want more. My aim is to find a way how to meditate sustainably, with the least effort, and how to remind oneself every day that he should meditate. Mind you, I don't know if this is even viable, as sometimes your mind revolts, and when it does, it will (on the background) use your best intelligence and creativity to avoid the practice. I think that not even smartphone apps can help you in this regard. Speaking of which, so far I've seen two worth mentioning (I haven't tried them yet), this one for iPhone http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lotus-bud-meditation-timer/id... and this one for Android https://market.android.com/details?id=com.nwalex.meditation. But as I said, I'm not sure these can help in a long run. The problem is that as you keep practicing (internal-awareness) meditation regularly, it will change your external reality (a.k.a. your life) very profoundly, only making it harder to keep practicing every day. There's a lot more to write about this, I could go on and on for many more pages - distractions, formal vs informal, beating your daily energy deficiency, cheating the thought-switching mechanism that makes you day-dream during meditation, etc.. but I want to put this in a readable and practically usable form first, if that is possible at all. (Edit: oh, and it must be a very short form - if you write a book about meditation, then - I believe - you have already failed to deliver what matters, as in that case the reader will simply get satisfied/their energy depleted with the reading itself, and their focus moves to something else.)

I use the iPhone app called 'Soto Timer' when I'm away. It's free and allows you to configure multiple periods (so you can sit, rest or kinhin, sit, rest or kinhin etc)

Sitting every day is most important. There is no substitute for this. A good way to convince yourself of the benefits, and to reinvigorate your practice, is to throw yourself into the deep end and do a retreat. The 'container' of a 'retreat' (retreat is an inadequate word, if you've ever done a proper retreat you'll know why) allows you to sit for extended periods and remain mindful when doing other simple activities like cutting food for your lunch.

As you said though, meditation is a 'practice'. There is no 'attainment' - if you're not practicing, the benefits are basically nil. As such, you need to practice for it to be worthwhile.

The best time to sit is first thing in the morning. Set your alarm, get out of bed (no excuses) and sit down. This is good for two reasons. 1) if you do nothing else all day, at least you've done your meditation and 2) as you've not had a chance to distract yourself yet, you're more likely to remain present. Of course you'll distract yourself with your plans for your day and convince yourself that you don't have time for this, that you're too tired, but these are just stories like all the others you tell yourself. Let them go, and return to your breath, again and again and again.

This is true. To sit right after getting out of bed in the morning, that actually might be the only chance for a regular practice, in this hectic material world. One usually has to visit the bathroom, and that can be enough for the day thoughts and habits to fully kick in - one grabs a tea, a piece of dark organic chocolate, talks with their partner, pets their dog - realizing few hours later or sometime during the day (if at all), that he actually skipped a sitting, but despite that, morning is most probably the best time. I know, once the initial one or two-week period is fought through, then the energies are different and practicing is easier ... at least until life creates its next whirlpool day and kicks one off the track. Waves. Anyway. Meditation is the art of coming back after losing track, in micro (the practice) and in macro (the waves), and the great thing is, that every next wave is better, because one puts to use what he has learnt before.

I wrote https://market.android.com/details?id=com.nwalex.meditation because I wanted to motivate myself to meditate more regularly. Prior to having the app, I'd manage maybe 10 days in a row, before finding some reason to skip a day (too busy, too tired, etc). Now I very rarely skip a day. As to whether or not it works long term, I've been using it for over a year, and it's still working for me. But then, it is custom built for my personality. My competitive nature means I never want to 'break the chain'. YMMV.

I'm an iPhone user, but I'm moving to Android (via Galaxy Nexus) very soon, and I think your app will be one of the first ones I install. And it's great to hear that it helps you practicing for over a year, that's just wonderful. Do you have intervals of more days in a row when you don't practice at all? One idea for the app - build a reminder into it - but a random one. One that sounds an alarm at unexpected time of day. This might be great for cheating the evading mind.

It has a reminder, but it's not random. You tell it how many minutes you want to spend meditating each day, and then configure a reminder time. At that time a notification appears in the tool bar if you haven't met your target. You can configure the notification message to make it something that motivates you.

You can also configure what time your day starts. If you often meditate just before bed, and don't go to bed until after midnight, you can offset the start of day. I have mine set to 2am, for example.

Last but not least, it has a simple widget that displays the length of the current chain (the number of consecutive days you have met your target), your longest ever chain, and a representation of the proportion of the target you've met today. When you miss a day, the current chain resets to zero.

All this combined works well for me. I recently broke a chain of 369 days because I was really ill. It wasn't a decision I took lightly. I'm on a run of 31 days now - less than a year to go to beat my record!

Edit: it's also free

Awesome! You might consider putting a paid version up, even with the same functionality, for people who want to express gratitude for your work.

A bunch of the people FMRI'd in this study were pulled from the pragmatic dharma movement: http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/04/pragmatic-dha...

The two areas highlighted in the article show prefrontal cortex (front of brain) and PCC (towards the back) shutting down. The prefrontal cortex is associated with executive attention and reasoning, while PCC appears to be differentially dialed up or down in conditions with altered states of consciousness (like people under anesthesia, in a coma, or apparently meditating.) Shameless plug: We're using these neuroscientific insights to design a meditation self-tracking tool at http://brainbot.me now.

You should add an about page. A meditation self-tracking tool sounds interesting (I've just started sitting zazen), but I'm going to need some details before I hand over my email.

We do need to get a little more info on the teaser page, we've been pretty heads down on the actual app for the RockHealth.org incubator. We just finished last week so I'll throw something together soon. My background is actually neuroscience; before this I was doing neuroimaging of meditation research at the Harvard-MIT-MGH Martinos Center in Boston. The whole project kind of started with this crazy trip to India to find monks to put EEG equipment on in 2009.

Not to dis BrainBot, but the only Zazen tracking tool you need is to sit Zazen every day. I can see how competition and seeing your hours tick over might be encouraging to some degree, and if the site encourages people to sit more then it is worthwhile! But I see enough chest puffing on the 'net as it is with regards to people's meditation, and how amazing they are now because of it or how much they are sitting, and it makes me feel ill. Your practice should be personal, for you (and the big you) and should be a part of your Bodhisattva work, not a device used to enlarge your ego.

What is Bodhisattva work? Is it the idea that by meditating, you're making the world a better place?

"Your practice should be personal, for you (and the big you) and should be a part of your Bodhisattva work, not a device used to enlarge your ego."

Why not? People train at the gym to better themselves (and thus enlarge their ego). Why should meditation be any different?

Of course, the very idea of tracking and working on "improving" via meditation goes against the core idea of zen meditation itself.

But I'm interested in your startup anyway. :)

edit: in fairness, there are many types of meditation beyond zen.

Yes, we have started building a database of many different styles of meditation, but the work is just beginning. There's so much we don't know yet! Thank you for the feedback

Isn't enlightenment the ultimate form of self improvement? Maybe you are practicing a different form of Zen than what I am used to. I don't think tracking itself is anti-Zen, but stressing out about your measurements would be. (also worrying about what is and is not Zen seems anti-Zen).

If you're aiming for enlightenment, you've missed the mark :)

> Of course, the very idea of tracking and working on "improving" via meditation goes against the core idea of zen meditation itself.

The - excuse me - postmodern gobbledygook of some schools are is what has turned me off meditation again and again.

I'd love to follow a rationalist, scientific school of meditation that has mind improvement as a goal.

In that case Daniel Ingram's book Mastering the Core Teachings on the Buddha might be a good place to start.

I think it's also important not to throw away the baby with the bath water; just because the techniques are explained in an archaic language and seemingly inseparable from a traditionalist cultural tradition, doesn't mean they do not produce results. Still probably a good idea to start with something easily approachable so you can start to discern what's effective and what's just cultural cargo culting.

I'm getting increasingly interested in meditation, mainly because it seems like it could make me use my brain better.

I have no clue where to start though. Anyone has info to share? I'm a total noob to this. Thanks!

I recommend Patanjali's Yoga Sutras:

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/patanjal/patanyog.htm

A simpler approach:

http://www.movingintostillness.com/meditation.html

Keywords: Raja Yoga, Kundalini Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Laya Yoga, Mantra Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jhana, Samadhi

Please read my other comment on this thread with some links to articles that might interest you. - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3264078

Krishnamurti has a lot to say about meditation, I also recommend the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the Bhagavad Gita (Jack Hawley translation is very thorough, it's subtitled A Walkthrough for Westerners) and lastly The Upanishads (the one with commentary by Eknath Easwaran is excellent.)

Great information in that other comment of yours. When you say "yoga", is it what ladies do following a DVD or is it some other form of meditation I am not aware of?

traditionally, yoga referred to both preliminary physical practice ("what ladies do" or hatha yoga) as well as mental practice ("meditation" or raja yoga). The two were inextricably linked, where the former was practiced for the sole purpose of preparing the body for long, seated meditation.

Yoga is just the sanskrit word for religion. It's slightly more nuanced than the english word though, because it's recognized that there are many different forms of yoga. For example, all of christianity is essentially one type of yoga.

One last note - if you decide to explore these books or if you already have and you're using your new golden rules - BEWARE "Nondualism" as described here -

http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j34/stacey-intro.asp

Rationalizing everything down to "this is all an illusion" is harmful. There's way more to it than that, so keep questioning and observing your thoughts.

Sit in a comfortable position, if possible on a cushion, on the floor, with three solid points of contact (your butt and your knees). Relax. Pay special attention to your shoulders, neck and throat. Straighten your back, let your stomach and butt hang out. Close your eyes 3/4 and let them go out of focus. Take a deep breath in and let it go. Then breath in again, counting 'one' to yourself, breath out and count 'two'. Keep doing this until you get to ten, then start again. When you get distracted by thoughts, start again at one. If you go past ten, start again at one. If you notice a conversation in your head underneath or behind or above the counting, start again at one. If there is anything other than the counting, start again at one. Just one. Just two. Just three.

Start sitting for five minutes twice a day and build up from there. Longer is better, but only if you stick to it. Don't get annoyed at yourself when you get distracted. Don't get proud if you don't. Don't think you are doing anything special. Just count your breath.

If you would like to learn more, search for 'Taking the path of Zen' where the late Robert Aitken goes into detail about Zen meditation and talks about positions and stretches to help you to comfortably sit in them.

If you are serious about this, find a teacher and a group to sit with. Not only will it make you more likely to sit, a good teacher can offer you advice you'll never find on a message board. Specific advice that is specific to you.

Wow thanks so much for the information! This als0 goes to everybody who responded to this thread.

My pleasure :)

This is harder than it seems! I couldn't go past 7 and barely lasted a minute. I got hyper and missed Hacker News :)

I'm ready to go to bed now, but I'll try again tomorrow. I never thought trying to relax would feed so odd! Thanks again for the information.

Indeed :) I do orientations for friends and occasionally newcomers to the Zendo. I tell them if they can honestly get past five in the first few months they are doing well :)

Also, relaxing is good, but the practice is an attentive awareness of the breath and count. Too relaxed and you'll get sleepy and lose the count, trying too hard makes you tense physically and tires you out mentally. It's about finding that balance again and again and again. Just one. Just two. Just three.

Grab some Alan Watts tapes and read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0834800799)!

Alan Watts is great, but he talks too much. It's interesting, and encouraging for those with an already established practice, but people who are new to meditation need to just sit. It's _very_ tempting to read about Zen and think it is nothing but an interesting philosophy.

Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is one of my favorite books, but there's very little actual instruction there and, once again, without an established practice, it would be easy to write it off as beautifully poetic but essentially baseless philosophy. (hehe, essentially baseless. Sorry, that's a bad Zen pun)

I liked Daniel Ingram's Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, online at http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml .

Sorry if this sounds clueless, but is that religious at all? I'm looking for something not religious since I am an atheist. Thanks!

While I cannot speak to that link, I can say that Buddhism is an atheistic religion.

If I understand the Buddhist teachings correctly (and I may not) there is no ‘religion’ here in the sense of a theology, afterlife, deity, etc. I guess we can define religion in a number of ways but those characteristics seem to me to be essential elements.

Buddhism is still a non-rational belief system entailing ritual, community, and moral teachings.

The book is written by a Western MD and focuses heavily on results. It leans on the classical maps of the path of meditation from Burmese Theravada, a tradition that is about as stripped down and non-theistic as it gets. That said, the maps and some of the terms used may appear somewhat archaic to a modern reader.

It's not. There's a brief strange bit where he thinks advanced meditation skills can lead to psychic powers, without really distinguishing them from people's perceptions of reality changing. Other than that it's pretty much "do these exercises with your head and look for this stuff to happen", and some ranting about general meditation instruction not being enough of that.

Most resources you find will have origins in Buddhism. Ignore it. I'm an atheist too, and while I can't speak to the link above, look up Mindfulness in Plain English for another source that, while written by a Buddhist, is pretty much an "instruction manual" where you can just ignore every mention of spirituality and Buddhism (there aren't many of them beyond giving some context in the introduction). While I groaned once or twice (a mention of levitation...), the spiritual/religious content in that one is light enough that it should be easily tolerable for all but the most rabid hardline atheists.

It's available for free at urbandharma.org (there's a direct link elsewhere in this thread, that I'm too lazy to look up) or you can get a hardcopy from Amazon.

I'd like to piggy back on this comment and ask if anyone knows a good introduction to meditation from a western/scientific/rational point of view. I'm open to the idea that meditation could help me use my brain more effectively, but I'm extremely wary of the religious/spiritual angle (even if the origins of meditiation are religious/spiritual.)

Western Zen is very western/scientific/rational. Most of the teachers in the lineage I belong to are also psychologists, psychotherapists or counselors (but your teacher is NOT your therapist). Stephen Bachelor has been a Tibetan AND a Zen monk, but is now neither. He wrote a book called "Buddhism Without Beliefs" which might suit you.

Note though that it is almost impossible to separate meditation as it relates to your mind, and meditation as it relates to your bodily actions. When you start to understand the way your mind works, and how everything fits together, you would have to be pretty ignorant to not alter your actions accordingly. Indeed, using your brain 'more effectively' can only happen by applying what you learn.

(IE, there is no state that you 'attain' and from then on you are 'more effective'. Meditation is a 'practice' and so you must practice it, you don't attain anything at all)

edit: correcting misspelled book title. Should be "Buddhism Without Beliefs" not "Buddhist Without Beliefs".

Thanks very much. "Buddhist Without Beliefs" is going in the Amazon basket.

I was also about to purchase the book as well only to find out it is not available on the Kindle. I realized that I never actually read the paperbooks I buy so I figured I'd stop buying them altogether.

Are you aware of great alternative book that might be available in digital format?

Unfortunately (I'm a kindle lover too!) the best books on Zen are either out of print completely or not available digitally :( Here's a couple of good lists thought:

http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,168&pageid=... http://szc.org.au/reading.html

Given the context of this discussion, I would recommend reading Charlotte Joko Beck's books. Specifically Nothing Special, which is available digitally on Amazon :)

I caved and ended up buying BOTH Buddhism Without Beliefs and Nothing Special. I got Nothing Special for $4 (used/paperback) so I figured I'll just throw it in.

Looking forward to some reading!

Sit at end of a chair, your lower back straight (so your whole back forms the natural, self-supporting "S"). Make your palms rest on your thighs or knees, in a way where your arms don't place strain on your sitting position. The rest doesn't matter, over time you will experiment and find what suits you best - opened eyes vs closed eyes, etc. etc. I prefer opened eyes as closed eyes make me sleepy/dreamy. Briefly realize, that for a few minutes starting now, nothing in the whole world matters to you, except of what you are going to do right now. Look inside. Initially, your random thoughts are a great help because you can observe them. By observing them, you can be sure that you are indeed looking inside. Their natural reaction upon their observation is their dissipation and vanishing. Whenever you read a thought, hear a sound, or see an image, only focus your attention on it, which makes it dissipate. At one point your mind will be cleared. That is OK, just be. Don't "try" to stay in that state. Don't "try" anything. Just when a new thought pops up, focus your attention to it until it dissipates - this is usually a very quick process. Rinse and repeat. :) (edit: by focusing attention I don't mean entertaining the thought, entering it, but rather only observing it from the outside, just knowing that it's there, this is a very subtle effort.) (edit2: one more thing - eventually you're going to be finding yourself thinking about something, building air castles, day dreaming, etc. - always just bring yourself back into the practice, right upon realizing that your have strayed.)

I thought this excerpt from a Krishnamurti talk (found in a link from this thread: http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-tex...) sums up meditation perfectly:

"To learn about meditation, you have to see how your mind is working. You have to watch, as you watch a lizard going by, walking across the wall. You see all its four feet, how it sticks to the wall, and as you watch, you see all the movements. In the same way, watch your thinking. Do not correct it. Do not suppress it. Do not say, ``All this is too difficult''. Just watch; now, this morning.

First of all sit absolutely still. Sit comfortably, cross your legs, sit absolutely still, close your eyes, and see if you can keep your eyes from moving. You understand? Your eye balls are apt to move, keep them completely quiet, for fun. Then, as you sit very quietly, find out what your thought is doing. Watch it as you watched the lizard. Watch thought, the way it runs, one thought after another. So you begin to learn, to observe.

Are you watching your thoughts - how one thought pursues another thought, thought saying, ``This is a good thought, this is a bad thought''? When you go to bed at night, and when you walk, watch your thought. Just watch thought, do not correct it, and then you will learn the beginning of meditation. Now sit very quietly. Shut your eyes and see that the eyeballs do not move at all. Then watch your thoughts so that you learn. Once you begin to learn there is no end to learning."

There's an excellent introductory talk that was delivered by Jon Kabat-Zinn for Google. It's available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc

This other comment was meant for you as well - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3266443

It would be nice to see the article itself. I would be curious to see how/if they controlled for selection bias. That is, the summary indicates they took images of the brains of novices and experienced meditators. It does not indicate that they took images tracking changes in brain activity as people progressed from novice to experienced.

I'm not saying that it's implausible that neuroplasticity effects can be found in the default mode network, just that those with the strongest symptoms might not easily (or ever) get to the "experienced" stage and the implied relief.

Meditation isn't about tuning OUT, it's about tuning IN.

Also, it's not 'suppressing' anything, it's just not paying the 'me' thoughts the attention you normally would.

After reading this press release carefully, I notice that the paper mentioned in the press release was submitted to the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, which is essentially a publication that accepts most submissions from members of the "club," that is the National Academy. I wonder what additional steps would have to be taken to produce a paper that could get published in a more stringently reviewed journal. While we all look up other literature on the subject, I thought it would be a good idea here to mention once again my favorite hacker's guide to how to read research reports, by Peter Norvig, director of research at Google:

http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

It's a mistake to assume that this was not peer reviewed. The PNAS has two tracks, stringent peer review and direct submission from members of the National Academy of Sciences. Every article is labelled as to whether it was reviewed or not, and the vast majority of PNAS articles I see are peer reviewed. Those articles that go through peer-review are typically of extremely high quality and impact; it takes a very strong paper to make it through peer review at PNAS, typically.

Meditation affects people differently; for a few people it is associated with seizures or other problems. See this article for more info:

http://www.sfweekly.com/content/printVersion/313883

That article highlights the need for having a good teacher, and teaching meditation together with ethical guidelines. It also smells very much like someone has something to lose by meditations rising popularity (ie, drug companies pushing the mentioned Prozac). It's full of slimy, non commital wording (like many, a lot and some) and also full of experiences that are made to sound terribly negative but don't really matter at all.

Meditation _can_ make you hallucinate, it _can_ make you burst into tears or fits of laughter, it can do a lot of things (although I've never known meditation to CAUSE seizures?! Come on... Show me some proof of that.) That is why working with a _good_ teacher is very important. In their 40+ years of experience, they've been there. You have to apply to go on our retreats, and if a teacher, for whatever reason, doesn't think it's a good idea that you go, then he or she will encourage you not to and if it was required would prevent you from going, although I've never known it to come to this. There are probably people that need to go to a counselor, therapist or psychologist before sitting with themselves for long periods.

Furthermore (and in my humble opinion) you should get the hell away from any meditation teacher that implies you're channeling a spirit guide or speaking to God. There's some fruity 'Guru's' out there. Do your research. Don't believe or expect miracles. Don't submit to anyone. Act ethically at all times and take some responsibility for your own actions.

Can anyone find a copy of the paper? I haven't been able to dig one up.

I don't think it's out yet. PNAS publications come out every Tuesday so maybe it'll be out in tomorrow's issue.

I am a self-help junky, and I am trying to get started with meditation currently.

Here's a bunch of meditations I found, from the author of "Buddha's Brain": https://sites.google.com/site/psychospiritualtools/

His web site: http://www.wisebrain.org/

I learned to meditate by reading and listening to Krishnamurti (among many others). "Meditation is not different from daily life" he says. "It can be done all day." It's exactly like being in the zone that you get into when you code, play video games, run, exercise, etc.

You can do it better and without needing a crutch activity by consciously shaping your thought/energy patterns; by constantly focus your mind on pure observance and acceptance of all that exists in the current moment without allowing "I/me/mine/he said/she said" ego thoughts to take over (by simply realizing and reaffirming that those thoughts are devoid of value). The ego driven thoughts go away after consistent practice, as does the suffering associated with such thoughts.

Seriously, if you are sensitive to "what so-and-so said about you on Facebook, or what your rivals, boss, friends, etc think" or if your brain just races and races away into the night and you can't seem to shut it down...meditation is the best way to fix all that. Get in the non-ego zone and just stay there all day. And do some exercise, preferably Yoga which is all about balance, which is what life and your mind and consciousness are all about. Don't think about it or "try" or plan or obsess over how it's going to change your life or what people will think about it. Just say this is what I'm doing now and go ahead and do it without ego. It is a huge relief.

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-dai...

http://www.krishnamurtiaustralia.org/articles/meditation%201...

by constantly focus your mind on pure observance and acceptance of all that exists in the current moment

I'd like to follow up, please, on what these words mean. Does "acceptance of all that exists in the current moment" mean that demonstrators at Tahrir Square should be accepting of a dictatorial government? I'm curious about this issue, because I lived for several years in a predominantly Buddhist country that was a dictatorship the first time I lived there. I (and other Americans who lived there) often wondered why the common people in that country put up with the dictatorship for so long. Is there a limit beyond which acceptance stops? When a person is out of the state of "constantly focus your mind on pure observance and acceptance of all that exists in the current moment," what comes next? What actions do people take to grapple with problems on the basis of such shaping of thought patterns? I'm curious about this, so I appreciate any response you have to these questions.

Theoretically, the goal is simply to avoid the knee jerk reaction. Accept the reality as what it is, then figure out what you want to (and can) do about it - rather than succumb to your animal instincts.

As for why these Buddhists put up with the dictatorship, you'd have to ask them... Keep in mind different people interpret Buddhism (and meditation) very differently.

Acceptance of all that exists in the current moment, for me, doesn't mean apathy but stopping to avoid uncomfortable aspects of reality. The difference is between accepting what is so and thinking that's the way it's always going to be. Facing reality can be a strong motivator for change.

Personally I interpret a large part of acceptance as stopping the endless stream of "what-if?"'s and doubt and stress and fear surrounding what happens in our lives.

When faced with an event, ruminating endlessly about what might have been if you did X instead of Y, or worrying about what might come next stops you from actually being free to focus your attention where you want it: On what deliberate action you should be taking, and on enjoying the good things in your life.

And that might have the effect of inaction in many cases. For "common people in that country" you mentioned it might very well be that on consideration an uprising was far down the list of what actually mattered to their lives. I don't know what impact it had on their day to day lives, and how that measures up with other things, such as caring for their families and making a decent living. Or maybe "acceptance" had nothing to do with it and they were just scared.

But priorities shift once you take a more deliberate view and are not driven by anguish about a situation but about considering carefully what actually matters to you.

A simple example:

You look at the clock, and realize you're late. There's no way you can make it to where you were meant to be in time.

You can choose to get stressed out and frantic, but it's already too late - you won't change that, all you achieve is to be stressed out and frantic and running around like a headless chicken while life passes you by.

Does it matter if you're late?

Maybe it does, but it still doesn't help to stress out about it when you should instead focus on what the best course of action is. Perhaps it is as simple as a phone call to let someone know you will be late. Perhaps you miss a train, but can just take a later one. Why stress over it? Even if being late is a disaster, the stress achieves nothing. It is unhelpful and just makes things worse. So you accept that you will be late and take deliberate action to minimize the impact of being late, and you accept the consequences you can't mitigate rather than make things worse by feeling sorry for yourself.

Maybe it doesn't matter, and you should just breathe calmly and accept that you will be late and since it's not such a big deal you proceed as you otherwise would and enjoy your walk wherever you were headed and take in the view and enjoy the nice day. Maybe you won't look at the clock in the first place, because you know it does not really matter what time it is.

Most things people get terribly worked up over are never worth caring much about in the first place, yet we get worked up and stressed out and make stupid mistakes or feel miserable for no good reason. Focus your attention and energy on the things that are worth caring about, and even then try to make a clear distinction between deliberate action and feelings or actions that are not helpful.

I think the idea is more similar to "accept you have a drinking problem." It isn't that you should embrace bad things, but that you should get rid of your mental aversion so you can respond consciously rather than instinctively. It might mean that you react less aggressively than you would have if you realize it's not really a battle you want to fight. It might also mean you respond more proactively if you realize you were ignoring a problem (as with alcohol abuse).

In practice, Buddhists do protest, but they tend to stop before the point where things turn violent (at least from my reading of history). As for why the people in that country put up with the dictatorship: A lot of people, regardless of faith, but up with bad governments for a long time. As a counterexample, though, IIRC monks in Burma were among the most vocal opponents of the junta.

An interesting detail to add: at least one mental health expert has told me that meditating on a regular basis can be a very powerful tool for fighting depressions and other psychological issues; the number of patients suffering from those issues amongst people who have been meditating for years seem to be extremely low.

Now a question for all you hackers: how to get started on meditating without running into the arms of some obscure cults and sects? And pointers?

For me I've found these two websites to be helpful: * http://www.audiodharma.org -- podcasts, including introduction to mindfullness meditation * http://www.accesstoinsight.org -- translations of the Pali canon

I found this to be a good introduction: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html

Second Mindfulness in Plain English. It is excellent, and though written by a Buddhist monk it is for the most part careful about separating the (little) material on Buddhism out as mostly contextual information, and point out that it is not necessary for the meditation practice itself.

I also recommend a series of podcasts by Gil Fronsdal at Audiodharma called Introduction to Meditation: http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/

It covers largely the same approach as Mindfulness in Plain English and fits great in with the book. It contains a series of short guided meditations.

It is also "cult free". While Fronsdal is Buddhist, he deliberately makes fun of how being a Buddhist or knowing much about Buddhism isn't necessary, for example by pointing out how mindfulness meditation is being taught as a stress reduction technique at places like Kaiser but "without mentioning the B-word", and that's about the full extent of the mention of Buddhism in the recordings.

Thank you, this was a nice podcast series. Added to my recommendations. :)

For me, The Mindful Way Through Depression was a good starting point. I was never really depressed, but I feel that without that book, I might have gotten to the point of real depression.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindful-Way-Through-Depression-Unhap...

It's written by four western doctors, so there's no cultish things here. It's also about the practice of mindfulness in general, not just mindfulness meditation. There's an audio guide to meditation included.

Other books By Jon Kabat-Zinn could also be useful introductions.

Then, pretty much everything by Alan Watts is interesting. He's an excellent speaker and there's tons of his audio lectures available online. Watts has a peculiar way of being able to introduce the listener to very complex information, without being off-putting.

If one want's to read about the benefits of mindfulness meditation, there's a great number of scientific studies done in the past 30 years or so.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com