Could long Covid be linked to herpes viruses? Early data offer a hint | Hacker News Reader

Could long Covid be linked to herpes viruses? Early data offer a hint

nature.com

79 pointsnope9664 comments

> It is common — affecting anywhere from 5% to 50% of people who contract COVID-19

Studies that claim these prevalences either suffer from massive selection bias (e.g. only use COVID cases that were severe enough to end up in health records [0]) or consider even minor symptoms lasting more than a few weeks (like a persistent cough) as “long COVID.”

Upwards of 80% of the US had been infected with COVID as of June 2022 [1]. If serious long-COVID symptoms indeed occurred in 5-50% of COVID cases, that would mean 4-40% of Americans are currently suffering from debilitating long-term illness, which would be obvious on a societal level. We simply do not see this [2].

Do severe long term COVID cases exist? Absolutely, as is the case with other infections, like influenza [3]. But they are nowhere near as prevalent as otherwise reputable publications claim.

[0] https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/05/more-than-1-in-5-cov...

[1] https://www.healthdata.org/sites/default/files/files/Project...

[2] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/06/long-covi...

[3] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58726775.amp

> But they are nowhere near as prevalent as otherwise reputable publications claim.

So the CDC is just junk science?

Nearly One in Five American Adults Who Have Had COVID-19 Still Have “Long COVID”

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/...

> So the CDC is just junk science?

This particular study certainly is. The Pulse Survey cited was not a rigorous longitudinal case/control study, but rather a voluntary online poll with a dismal response rate of only 4-6% [0]. This could easily result in selection bias: people suffering from (or who just believe they’re suffering from) long COVID are much more likely to respond than healthy people.

Indeed, the CDC admits that it only attempted to adjust for nonresponse bias based on geographical area [1], and not anything related to actually having (long) COVID. The results of this study are totally meaningless at best, and disinformation at worst.

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/pulse/long-covid.htm

[1] https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/demo/technical-docu...

The CDC has routinely published junk science concerning Covid, yes. Is it all junk science? No. But they've proven themselves to be willing to advance "science" that is little more than propaganda.

Here's just one example so egregious that even the Atlantic had to call them out on it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/12/mask-gui...

There have been a few others this year, alone. Here's one on long covid in kids that was abysmal:

https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/another-bad-cdc-stud...

The study you've cited as also terrible, but the other commenter on this subthread tackles it, so I won't bother.

I was recently listening to NPR and even they were calling out the CDC and others for mistakes and the effects on kids. They did balance the criticism with the relevant unknowns at the time, but still

Isn't it commonly known at this point the CDC is just a tool of the political/pharmaceutical system?

I'm not being facetious at all. I thought everyone was made aware of what seems to be the case

The CDC has destroyed their credibility over the course of the pandemic, yes.

Covid reactivated my cold sores. I usually get one every year or two, can feel it when it's about to happen, and Abreva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Docosanol) kills it before it even breaks the skin.

During covid I got a vicious one on my lip like I've never had before and that Abreva had no effect on, and another awful one in my nose which has never happened before. Almost the only bad effect of covid that lasted longer than the first day.

Can covid damage some immune subsystem that usually suppresses herpes?

Doesn't the herpes virus generally reactivate when the immune system is being run down?

I know there is literature to suggest that Cold Sore outbreaks in an individual generally occur during cold and flu outbreaks.

I'm pretty sure that's why they're called cold sores, and I've had them happen during flus before, although not during the vast majority of them. Nevertheless, I haven't ever had a situation like I got with covid, and the actual covid symptoms were minor (after the first day, which was a weird intense generalized weakness that eventually went away.)

Covid is a cold, anyway. A strong, strange cold.

My cold sores will break out after any sort of physical stress (excluding exercise). Ironically I get them most often after heat exhaustion.

Aren't most variants of cold and flu members of the corona-family of virus? If so, it would seem logical that COVID also being a coronavirus would have the same (or at least extremely similar) effect on cold sores as other members of the same viral "family" would cause.

COVID infection causes nutrient deficiencies that weaken the immune response, yes. Zinc, B6, and few others maybe like selenium.

As a long-time cold sore host, I have figured out several things that are true (for me):

1) Generally any viral infection that runs down my immune system can create a cold sore. A flu, a bad cold or covid.

2) Sometimes just stress and/or being sleep deprived will do it, but there usually needs to be at least 3-4 months since the last outbreak for that to happen.

3) You're lucky if Abreva works for you. For me, the creams do almost nothing. The only thing that seems to help is Valaciclovir oral tablets. If taken early enough, they can prevent the outbreak or make it a very small cold sore.

So, in summary, I don't think there's anything special about covid with regard to cold sores. It breaks me out about the same as any other virus that runs me down / gives me a few days of fever.

You should also probably check out Valaciclovir, as it sounds like your immune system does quite well against cold sores, so the extra boost from a more powerful antiviral might completely stop your outbreaks.

Valaciclovir is magic. I use the 1G tablet whenever I feel the tingles.

Between that, routine vitamins, and habitual chapstick use I haven’t had a bad outbreak for almost a decade. Before that I’d get one like every other month it seemed.

I used to get more outbreaks when I was in a worse physical shape (overweight, little exercise). Then it was maybe one every 2 months. Now I'm in the normal BMI range and I exercise regularly (albeit not to a high level) and my outbreaks are 2 times a year.

Valaciclovir definitely helps, but one's own immune system plays a huge role. After all, most people in the world have that virus, few actually get outbreaks.

My cold sores are rare and rarely break the skin; I would never take something systemic rather than topical (and weak, Abreva is also a food additive) to control them. The only time they've ever been this bad was covid. I've had 1000 colds and flus over the past half-century, so I do have a basis for comparison.

You know your body best. My advice should be mostly considered by people who want to prevent cold sores that break the skin and have less of an immunity than you do.

4) And spikes in your UV light exposure can trigger them.

virus knows you have crawled out from under your rock and it is time to party.

edit: also proactively take L-Lysine before sun or stress and Valacyclovir if it is too late

Interestingly, that was the case when I lived in the UK. Now I live in a much warmer country / more UV, so that stopped triggering them.

You should try using hydrocortisone. There are some studies on it in combination with antivirals and it works quite surprisingly and very cost effective....

thanks for the tip. how does it work in your experience? Does it work to prevent the cold sore from breaking the skin or does it just speed up its healing / reduce the size of it.

Really makes a difference early to prevent anything from developing.

From what I've read there isn't much consensus on why this works, but it is not for me to question why..

I’m on blood thinners and Covid required me to double my dosage to not have clots. Lasted about six months before I was able to lower dosage.

Just to add anecdata: both myself and partner got our booster in early december 2021. Right before christmas, my partner came down with covid. I didn't bother to isolate from her because it would have been ineffective given our living space.

I never came down with symptoms myself - but 3 weeks later, I developed shingles, aka herpes zoster. Do not recommend the experience.

Shingles outbreaks are increasingly common for those of us too old to have gotten the chickenpox vaccine but still too young to receive the shingles vaccine.

It’s miserable, and maybe your case was indeed triggered by some immune system modulation at the time, but plenty of us were having it sneak up on us in the years before too. I wouldn’t think too much of it as covid-related, per se.

You can get an off label vaccine even if you’re too young.

Except for those of us who get shingles as teenagers (after having had childhood chickenpox)

They have been asking the same question about ME/CFS for decades. Either Herpes or Epstein Barr Virus, both of which often get reactivated after certain infections. So far anti virals that work against Herpes and EBV haven't done much to aid sufferers so if they are responsible no known treatments help most people.

Does "long Covid" actually exist, can one get a blood test, scan or something like that done to have it diagnosed?

Yes, there are clear biological markers related to reported symptoms of Long COVID.

Increases in exhausted immune T cells and lower levels of cortisol.

Also, patient reported outcomes alone are sufficient to identify Long COVID patients with ~90% accuracy.

https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/15573941922251571...

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278592v...

Take this paper with a huge grain of salt. They went on a fishing expedition, then pointed an ML model at the data and reported some clusters. This is...questionable methodology. ML models will find a way to draw a discriminatory boundary for almost any classification problem.

On the other hand, there was this paper [1][2] from the NIH, which was a well-controlled, pre-registered cohort study, did pretty much every clinical test imaginable (about 150 different measurements per person), and found no measurable differences between "long covid" people and controls. This is a much better study, and rebuts the claim.

[1] https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/98885...

[2] https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-4905

People with Long COVID May Still Have Spike Proteins in Their Blood

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-with-long-...

Let's be 100% clear: this is all speculation. I take no side on any of it, except to say that the evidence is bad, and what little good evidence there is doesn't support the hyperbolic claims of prevalence, nor does it support the claims of any particular mechanism or theory of what "long covid" is (if anything at all).

I'm pretty convinced it's not a thing, or at least it's not COVID-specific.

People are attributing every ache, pain, sniffle, fatigue, and other symptom to "long covid" when they are more likely the random things we all experience from time to time, or they are among the people who have long recoveries from severe respiratory virus infections.

Do you have any data to back this opinion up?

Belief in having had COVID is more strongly associated with long COVID symptoms than actually having had COVID, as confirmed by antibody tests: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/27877...

Does the vaccine cause long COVID in some people?

Does people faking having long covid mean that no one has long COVID?

Can people have these symptoms from another disorder like ME/CFS for EBV infection?

Those are questions for you to research. The person you were replying to just asked for a piece of evidence and was offered one, they aren't the spokesperson for the anti-psychosomatic illness society. When you find the answers, you tell us.

Those are questions you should’ve considered before making your previous statement. I was just helping you think.

That's what people say about my mental illness as well.

Also, In March I went into a bad psychosis, came out of it with Klonopin. The next day I did not feel well, took my temp that night; 99. Next day test COVID positive. Today my previous poor fatigue is even worse and my mood has been more unstable than ever.

I do not thing that me wanting to kill myself after walking a mile is something you all experience from time to time so shhhhhhhh.....

Long covid, like ME/CFS and fibromyalgia, is not well understood - that does not mean that it does not exist, and suggesting that it does not is hurtful to the millions of people currently suffering with the condition.

I don't think that suggesting that a possible affliction X is actually psychological or caused by something else is inherently harmful. It could just as easily lead to people getting the right treatment.

When speaking generally, that suggestion may be acceptable. The previous comment, however, specifically mentioned long covid. Biomarkers for long covid are known. Both patient experience and biological research confirm that long covid isn't psychological.

"Blood abnormalities found in people with Long Covid - Study implicates lack of key hormone, battle-weary immune cells, and reawakened viruses," https://www.science.org/content/article/blood-abnormalities-...

"Fewer microclots = less severe acute symptoms," https://twitter.com/resiapretorius/status/156015016679088128...

> The previous comment, however, specifically mentioned long covid. Biomarkers for long covid are known.

Biomarkers for long covid are NOT "known". The Iwasaki paper discussed in this article is methodologically questionable (if not poor), and this much better, well-controlled cohort study from the NIH found the exact opposite -- no indication of significant differences across about 150 different clinical markers:

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-4905

If I'm being maximally generous to Iwasaki's group, the best I can say is that they've advanced a hypothesis that needs to be verified by others, using better methods, with better controls. We're a long, long way from "known biomarkers".

> Both patient experience and biological research confirm that long covid isn't psychological.

There is no such research to "confirm" this claim, and "patient experience" is not evidence. It's an assertion. In fact, one good study out of France found that "self-reported COVID-19 infection was associated with most persistent physical symptoms, whereas laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection was associated only with anosmia.":

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

About all you can say about "long covid" is that most of the existing research is of terrible quality, and the little that is well-controlled and high-quality doesn't confirm the most hyperbolic claims. If it is something other than psychosomatic illness, we don't know what it is, or how to diagnose it objectively.

The federal reserve believes it exists and is a big enough threat to the labor force (and economy) of the nation that we need take action. They released this paper a few weeks ago: https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/long...

It seems pretty serious and real when the real money and power institutions in the country are getting concerned.

> It seems pretty serious and real when the real money and power institutions in the country are getting concerned.

Beware this sort of reasoning, especially after Havana Syndrome.

>It seems pretty serious and real when the real money and power institutions in the country are getting concerned.

or it's a convenient scapegoat to cover for their mismanagement of the economy as we deal with massive inflation and, by most common definitions, a recession

They're looking at the percent of people who have dropped out of the workforce for disability. It was steadily decreasing up until the pandemic and has now leveled out and might be increasing. That's bad at a macro level. Less people working, less output from the economy years from now. They weren't looking at the GDP right now or other recession indicators.

My blood pressure increased by 50% since getting covid 6 months ago and hasn’t come down since.

It’s been stable all my life and shot up in the span of a month.

If someone lives an unhealthy life and is regularly sick. Then they get covid and they recover. Yet symptoms continue mainly because they got sick with something else. Then it's long covid?

Long covid should be trivial to prove by analyzing the antivaxxer crowd.

What percentage of the antivaxxer crowd have long covid? Is it 0%?

No. Anecdotally, a lot of the people I know with long COVID were robustly healthy pre-COVID. One dude swam a mile every day, no drugs, no drink, no smoking, normal blood pressure. Now has continuous brain fog and can’t walk up stairs without wheezing.

Speculating about the antivax crowd is unhelpful. Many of them died. Some of them are lying and did get vaxxed.

Any infection you have will deplete one nutrient or another, and if you have a genetic susceptibility, this depletion might be much greater than someone else. To correct these nutrition depletion to keep these viruses in check, you will need to take mega doses of the supplement for a short period.

If you are still one of these people that think zinc does not play a role in COVID outcomes I have nothing left to say but: By destroying the ACE2 receptor, SARS2 causes a depletion of zinc since zinc makes up the structure of ACE2 and prevents the recycling of zinc in the cell.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S120197122...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18880-0

And hey and guess what. They find that people with zinc deficiency have more herpes out breaks!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283972/

Why? Because the same thing happens with herpes but with NECTIN1 receptor and ADAM10. Low zinc means less ADAM10 activity and more NECTIN1 on the cell and therefor more herepes virus replication.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2906284/

So what might be happening with the low cortisol they speak of in the study?

ACE2 is all over the adrenal gland, and when ACE2 is destroyed the adrenal gland shuts down and cannot release as much cortisol.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2020.5931...

Now, many of you will come back as show me all the studies that reveal that zinc actually reduces cortisol. And I agree, but do you know why? When someone is not zinc deficiency, adding more zinc will trigger ADAM17 to cleave ACE2 off the cell and create Soluble ACE2. Zinc the ACE2 is not on the adrenal gland anymore cortisol will not be released.

https://www.mdpi.com/viruses/viruses-12-00491/article_deploy...

But in a zinc deficient state there is not enough ACE2 to start with and ADAM17 activity is also low. By taking zinc and correcting the deficiency you will increase activity for both ACE2 and ADAM17.

If you know someone or if you have long covid, I highly suggest that you at least get your serum zinc levels tested.

If only it were that simple. How many long covid patients have already tried multivitamin/mineral supplements out of despair?

How many people do you know have tried it? How many clinical studies have there been on this? How many people have tried it And it worked?

How many people know that it might take up to 240 mg of zinc sulfate for a week to correct this? How many people are taking way too small doses of any of the supplements to make a difference?

The fact that it is the simple is what is causing people to overlook it as a possibility. If you can come up with a better sourced reason why this is happening to people I’d be interested to hear it.

There’s nothing in the material I presented that is false. But yet you can’t believe it.

Great comment.

From prior research, the hormonal interactions around the thyroid and immune system are complex. You've boiled it down fairly well here as related to zinc.

Wasn't there some discussion about hydroxychloroquine being effectively only in conjunction with zinc as the hydroxychloroquine encourages cellular uptake of zinc. Ergo, zinc is the key ingredient.

Further, I seem to recall the book "The end of alzheimer's" (high recommend) talked alot about zinc wrt neurological health.

It's probably related to Zinc deficiency caused by covid.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3897803/#:~:text=Zinc%20ions....

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22845574

Yes, have you seen my comment?

This one?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32632583

The parts I understand make sense. I'm not familiar with some of the things you talk about.

> It's probably related to Zinc deficiency caused by covid.

Wouldn't that be known by now given that nutrient deficiencies should probably be part of a standard test for long-covid patients?

Lol. You think people suffering from chronic illnesses aren't trying every supplement cocktail in existence? "Just take zinc to cure long covid" is just as bad as thinking that fruit juice will cure your cancer.

"Just take zinc to cure long covid" is just as bad as thinking that fruit juice will cure your cancer.

That's not remotely what I said.

> You think people suffering from chronic illnesses aren't trying every supplement cocktail in existence?

Do you genuinely believe it is objectively true that each person is doing this?

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