Life Is Good in America, Even by European Standards | Hacker News Reader

Life Is Good in America, Even by European Standards

bloomberg.com

22 pointsseydor65 comments

>Many Americans used to admire the UK’s National Health Service, but right now the whole system is ailing.

As a byproduct of the austerity measures from the past 12 years. Though, I'd much rather have an NHS over what the US has, where healthcare is rationed through private insurers and drives people into debt.

Another commenter mentioned this coming off as a weird article. I think it comes off as just plain arrogant. Pointing to Europe that has suffered from the pandemic, and now suffering from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and going "Now the US is doing better than Europe". It's a pretty disgusting attitude to have.

Overall, this just reeks of that arrogant American exceptionalism.

I felt the same, as if the author was relishing the Schadenfreude in EUs misfortune.

> Another commenter mentioned this coming off as a weird article. I think it comes off as just plain arrogant. Pointing to Europe that has suffered from the pandemic, and now suffering from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and going "Now the US is doing better than Europe". It's a pretty disgusting attitude to have.

As a european, a lot of european „suffering“ was brought by ourselves.

Pandemic especially hard on regions that shifted from industry to service to tourism economy. Which, as it turns out, is super fragile.

Russian invasion is the result of several european states being buddy-buddy with Russia bankrolling it's war machine even after Georgia and Crimea.

Energy crisis is mostly because of stupid anti-nuclear stance. Which is only our own fault. Well, and our corrupt politicians. But it's we the voters who didn't keep them accountable.

We're also quickly going down the same neoliberalism drain as US with marketising everything. We're going to loose euro advantages while getting US disadvantages.

>now suffering from the Russian invasion of Ukraine

As mantas said, the energy/economic issues Europe faces from the Ukraine War is 100% self-inflicted.

First, Poland, the Baltics, and other ex-Warsaw Pact countries have by and large done their best to wean themselves off the Russian oil and gas teat they fed from during the Cold War, even while Germany and other far wealthier countries did their best to suckle ever more from the same teat. Since energy is fungible, the far higher prices they are now having to pay affect the rest of the world, even those like the US and UK that never relied on Russian energy themselves.

Second, it's entirely possible that greater European investment in defense might have dissuaded Russia from the February invasion. Or, at the least, be able to contribute now more than the relatively paltry sums and supplies they have so far sent. Again, the ex-Communist countries by and large both met the 2% GDP spending guideline that their far wealthier NATO fellow members have mostly ignored, and are sending as much gear as they can without endangering their own defense.

Consider two moments four years ago:

1) Trump and NATO secretary-general and former Norwegian PM Jens Stoltenberg argue on camera (video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k>, article <https://pbs.org/newshour/politics/at-nato-trump-says-germany...>) about dependence on Russia. Who turned out to be right? Who turned out to be completely, totally, 100% wrong?

2) Trump at the UN warns that Germany is endangering itself by increasing dependence on Russia. German envoys laugh <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwgepe>, including foreign minister Heiko Maas. Who was right, Trump or the Germans?

Both incidents got much coverage in the US and European press, with the usual bien-pensants describing them as yet another example of Trumpian foolishness versus the sensible Europeans. Had the sensible Europeans listened to the Trumpian foolishness even four years ago, Europe would now be secure against Russian threats. Germany (and thus Europe) would not now face an existential threat to its economy and industry from 200%-1000% rises in gas bills, that is if there is gas to purchase at all regardless of price. This is the greatest bungling by German and Europeans in 75 years and, again, it is 100% self-inflicted.

(This is now where the same bien-pensants' sycophants now pull out the "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"/"Trump said everything about anything so was bound to get something right"/"Trump also said uncomplimentary things about NATO so should have been arrested as a traitor" canards. And yes, I've seen all three responses, almost word for word, when I point to the above videos.)

> Pointing to Europe that has suffered from the pandemic, and now suffering from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and going "Now the US is doing better than Europe".

What’s wrong in pointing that out ? Europe has spent money on social services but can’t keep it’s citizens safe

No covid vaccine production, land war on the continent - things are great until they are not

The author of this comment piece seems to boast about America's "energy independence". There's more to energy independence than reliance on other nations. If your network is so terribly managed that a bit of unexpected cold shuts down the whole state, you're not independent. And don't forget lots of Americans live in states where they rely on heating and cooling for most of the year just to survive.

And then the over-reliance on cars to do just about anything means that your citizens are at the mercy of reliable fuel distribution. Walkable and cyclable cities and effective public transportation is as important for energy independence.

Just let US's depedencies on Asian offshoring eventually come to bite it back when its industries no longer are allowed to depend on their globalization practices.

Don't forget the dynamic energie pricing. Suddenly energy prices can peak to 10$/kWh.

So comparing the US to specific aspects of specific countries in Europe makes it seem not so bad compared to Europe?

It's just kinda mocking our energy issues without highlighting the positive solutions that are in work as well. How about all the health care systems that didn't collapse and still don't make people poor. Other countries here also make fun of Germany. They definitely don't serve as a good example for 'europe' in that sense.

Weird article, dunno

It's definitely weird and of poor quality, not mentioning sources.

The editorial is arguing that Americans are in a better place because they can continue to drive their cars as much as they want/need to, which is odd since having to drive everywhere is one of the worst things about living in the US.

... and other euro countries have even worse QoL than Germany. Which was able to stay afloat only due to freeriding on other nations.

I don't think there is a single metric where quality of life in Germany is better than here in Switzerland. We also barely depend on the Euro. Also as said not all health care systems collapsed, some countries feel the energy issue way less. In these 2 points many poorer countries easily beat Germany right now.

I am not the biggest fan of how the euro zone works. However reality is there are no 'free riders' every piece of land is relevant for the whole puzzle. There is no one sided money rain for poor countries as some people seem to think.

Germany was freeriding on Ukraine's blood to get cheap energy ;)

Eurozone allows Germany to freeride as well. Germany makes use of relatively cheap euro, while other countries, who do drag down euro, can't access benefits of crappy state of their economy. And Germany's strong Russian-gas-powered economy keeps euro higher than it should be. Although now it's getting corrected.

Switzerland is a little bit of a special case in many regards.

Doesn’t Switzerland import all of their oil and gas? Maybe they don’t need as much cause there’s less heavy industry.

To much definitely but there is also plenty of energy from atom and water. The small region I live in is energy independent as far as I know only from water.

The main reason Switzerland isn't it full panic mode yet as some neighbors are is because the average energy price rise is not so much compared to our average income. If ex. Germans have to pay €100 more it hits them at least 2-3 times as hard than the median Swiss. Euro is falling as well, so some things are actually just getting cheaper meanwhile.

> How about all the health care systems that didn't collapse and still don't make people poor.

The article addresses health care. Did you have a rebuttal to its specific points?

> A traditional trump card for Western Europe has been the quality of its health-care systems. But the boasting here is not nearly as justified as it used to be.

> The pandemic revealed years of capital underinvestment in many of European health-care systems. Many Americans used to admire the UK’s National Health Service, but right now the whole system is ailing. There has been a labor and capital shortage, and a collapse of emergency health care services, which may be costing up to 500 excess (non-Covid) deaths a week. Similar problems exist throughout Europe, though they seem to be worst in the UK.

> The American hospital and health care system long has been good — too good — at making expensive, long-term investments in care and technology. Often this meant excess prices and not much of an improvement in basic care. But in the pandemic and post-pandemic environment, that feature of the system has kept US health care up and running. All that capital investment turns out to have been pretty useful in a major crisis.

> The article addresses health care. Did you have a rebuttal to its specific points?

Does it? All it says is how awesome and universal health care is in the US without going to any details. How about this for rebuttal:

- Insurance is tied to your job; usually in EU it's a % of your income. - Even with insurance, a medical emergency in the US can often be a financial catastrophe, specially if you have the wrong coverage; - Chronic disease is a massive burden in the US and insurances only pay a small part of it.

So yeah, it's getting better, but is it acceptable for those who don't earn 150k a year?

One thing many don't seem to care (or think) about is how your neighbors are doing.

Sure health insurance is not cheap, however I also know that whoever feels I'll in this country is getting the help they need without money every standing in the way.

If I see a person feeling bad on the streets, homeless or not, I just call an ambulance and he is taken care of. There are no implications, human health, whoever's health, is still the highest good.

One reason Switzerland is so much safer than the US even thought we have nearly as much guns in private hands is because people get help when they need it.

Just FYI, I wasn't saying you were wrong or disagreeing. Thank you for addressing some of the points.

What would you have to say about the author's contention that long-running American over-investment in health care kept the system up and running during the crisis, where European under-investment has led to excess deaths (especially in the UK, which the author claims has suffered 500 excess death/week because of this)?

I've noticed this recent trend of calling articles and posts "weird." I'm glad to see that internet commenting has evolved from childish personal attacks into more highschool-ish tactics: pointing out how someone's different in a vague way.

Two quick thoughts. First, Canada seems to be doing ok energy wise and our dollar has tracked USD reasonably well. Second, any discussion of the quality of life in the US must include full time employment / has health care. Those without employer provided health care are either at risk, old or well to do.

Separate the good parts of life a la Euro from the now foolish decision to try and integrate Russia into Europe. Note that the US has built its economy on Chinese production which also carries (severe) geopolitical risk.

I guess Bloomberg doesn’t include things like public health, crime rates and types, political rigidity and economic inequality? No, I guess it wouldn’t as it would mess up ad rates.

Is the macro economic situation in Canada that much different than in the US? For example your point about Chinese production applies to Canada as well.

It’s there, and there’s a political divide that has widened in the last 10 years. Social cohesion is holding, and the US provides both a negative and positive point in discussions. As others have posted, the highs aren’t quite as high and the lows aren’t quite as low as our southern neighbour. But we’re doing ok so far. People just have to continue to give a shit about others.

The article specifically includes public health.

Well, Covid wasn’t handled well so I separate public health from private health which is great when fully employed.

I have lived in San Francisco for more than 4 years, i have also lived in brazil, panama, the uk, ireland, Italy and Spain. Life is not good in America, salaries are good (depending on the job) and there's a lot going on in big cities and a lot of free space to roam in the rest of the country but the culture is isolating, depressing, superficial and totally fake in their kindness. Lots of social class separation, people without a lot of money don't have a good life, no good healthcare, school, opportunities and outlook. The US needs less "we are the best" and more "what can we improve"

Do you know what we call countries where you need to be really rich to live in peace, safety and health? Developing countries...

totally, but that's the result of the american dream and national policies. The country enables people to become extremely successful in a very short time (This doesn't easily happen somewhere else) and to do this, sacrifices completely people that don't follow that dream. If you don't want to strive to become the next billionaire you are "useless" to the government so the government doesn't care about investing in you. This is a completely wrong approach and, in my opinion, the root cause behind most of national issues (not being "able" to deal with mental health, drugs addiction, depression etcetc). In the end you have a country with a lot of foreigners that don't feel integrated (you have no idea how many uber drivers i have met that come from a country at war or extremely poor and told me they want to go back but only stay in the us for the money), a lot of nationals that feel abandoned or left alone by the government and hugely divided on a national level, a false sense of community that isolates more than integrating, a culture of never having a discussion around a conflictual topics, zero introspection and self critique. The worst part though is the glorification of "self-made-people" that achieved to become extremely rich, and the vilification of those who don't.

The crazy thing is that some of the most brilliant and bright people live in the US and i really don't know how you end up in this situation.

San Francisco is not at all representative of the US in general.

absolutely and I am well aware of this, but it's also one of the richest cities in one of the richest states and it's crazy to see how bad it is to live there.

Lots of people love living in SF. Everyone is different.

Yeah like in every other place in the world, only in those places it's a lot safer and cleaner and cheaper to live :)

It's true that San Francisco is not representative of the US as a whole - it has only half the murder rate of the US as a whole. That's still 5x that in other developed countries though.

One would have to be insane to factor in the murder rate when deciding whether or not to live in the US.

Not really, one day coming back from work somebody got shot on the next car in the bart train i was on :)

Living in the US makes sense for me now but if I were to have kids do I want to subject them to the active shooter drills that go along with the excessive murder rates?

We shrug our shoulders at the shootings in our neighbourhoods but there is an impact on quality of life.

Crime and general safety aren't valid factors for deciding where to live? Interesting, why not?

Ever wonder why in America we live to work and in Europe they work to live?

The entire system in the United States is designed (by our corporate overlords, who effectively make the laws) to make the people on the lower decks of the Titanic not get too comfortable. We overcompensate to overcome the artificially erected barriers, and we overachieve. Not because we want to, but because we have no choice.

Why does Jane respond to Slack messages after 8PM and why does she check work emails on a Sunday night? No, not because of her superior American work ethic. Because Jane needs to outperform another workaholic, Steve, just by enough not to lose her job. Because if Jane loses her job, she also loses her health insurance. Jane risks being financially ruined if she slips in an unfortunate way or her appendix bursts.

This is also, interestingly, the reason Jane cannot start her own business. Being untethered from the employer-provided safety net bares too much of a risk.

Jane needs to get up every morning and go to work. While on a bus, she will probably be checking social media, where some spoiled brat will complain about their life, how everyone is out to get them, and how maybe people like Jane should WORK HARDER.

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/celebrity/kim-kardashian...

From an economic point of view: yes, of course. But from a social point of view:

- I would panic if I have to interact with any American policeman

- There is no federal or state statutory minimum paid vacation. Full-time employees earn on average 10 vacation days after one year of service [1]. So, no thanks

- Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons: 120. What the actual fuck? [2]

- No National Health Service

So, basically USA is fine if you have money and you are white (not just any white, but American/European white).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

As an European, observing American hubris from the exterior is quite interesting.

They are taught since the earliest years that they live in the greatest nation on earth and they are second to none. Anything indicating the opposite is jealousy.

Other cultures are "weird" for them.

Also in my field,, salaries are 20-30% higher there but it's a false economy, since you have to pay for yourself for basically everything and workers have zero protection. And they shun unions.

I would not want to live in America at all. Maybe Canada. Maybe. But I would not want to touch the US with a stick.

As long as homeless people have to spend the night in tents in cities like SF or LA, I wouldn't talk so big as an American.

True, but there are plenty of homeless people in major European cities. Probably less overall but enough to notice.

I believe there is certain part of population that chooses to be outside the system. Not much to do with them, but occasionally shelters and mental health support.

On other hand the number of working people living in cars and such is the really worrying thing to me. Indicating that on systematic level something has gone horribly wrong.

Higher highs but also much lower lows in the US and much easier to climb up or fall down.

Oversimplification, basically whole article is just about energy prices and health system/insurance as if those were the only differences between Europe and US.

Btw. health system/insurance is still worse in US, but yes, right now energy prices are better in US, but I would still rather live in Europe with higher prices than in US.

How about talking about crime rates, education prices, paid vacation days, maternity leave, air quality, pedestrian/cyclist friendliness, public transport, etc.?

Life is great anywhere in the world when you have a lot of money. Some better than the others. In particular, when talking about developed nations, I see much greater value in Europe than the US. Cities are well designed, people are nice, food is of great quality, and healthcare, which is a problem everywhere in the world, is at least "trying".

I've lived in many countries (Canada, USA, Japan, England, Germany). In my opinion, the ordering in terms of quality of life (best to worst) is: Germany, then Japan, then Canada, then the USA, then the UK.

This article sounds more like a "feel-good" piece than anything else, dragging out the usual American bogeymen such as socialist healthcare and gas prices.

From my EU point of view, UK (London and all big cities) and Germany would be the worst Europe countries. Yes, it's because their open-border politics, not good from my point of view.

(Czech)

UK does not have an open borders Policy licked Germany. It's one of the huge resistance points the drove Brexit.

why do you think the UK is worse than the US to live in?

Do you have kids? How much did you pay for the birth?

Here in EU, I payed 0. (or if you wanna be fancy, around $300 to be alone in a hospital room)

Or even better, how many years of maternity leave with welfare you have in US, how much cost kindergarten or university and how much paid vacation and holidays per year you have?

Here in Czechia you will get parental benefit up to 4 years of kid, have 5 weeks of paid vacation, another roughly 10-14 days of paid national holidays and you pay nothing in hospital unless it's ER where it's like 2 or 4 USD fee so people won't go there with things which can wait. University is free and public kindergarten cost roughly 80 USD per month, last mandatory year it's free, you just pay for food roughly 40USD, same in primary school you just pay for food.

Ok, but it Czechia by and large you have Czech people paying for the welfare of other Czech people. On the other hand in the US, you would have mostly white and asian people paying for the welfare of mostly blacks and latinos. No wonder they don't want such a system. Like it or not, solidarity needs kinship, especially when it's your money on the line.

You didn't pay 0, you paid in an alternative payment scheme (using taxes). You could argue that it's better for costs to be spread among all taxpayers over time, though.

Even if they're not insured, pregnant women get free healthcare, in my EU country.

Point is… you pay taxes in the US as well… you just don’t get much from it…

In Austin, Texas, US we paid $500 out-of-pocket by using a midwife and a birthing center, including all pre-natal and post-natal care. The rest was picked up by my employer's insurance. One has 9 months to shop around, no?

Shout out to https://www.austinabc.com/.

on the energy front Cowen is without a doubt right. But on the other fronts health(care), violence, crime, deaths of despair (opioids, mental health etc) the US still has huge, unique problems. Cowen's typical gloating seems unjustified given that the US has a life expectancy lower than Cuba. That's just a stat that you can't argue around.

Just from personal experience in some large American cities the level of homelesness and precarity, crime etc is quite stark. Even Eastern European countries with significant lower nominal purchasing power or wealth seem more livable by comparison.

Looking at crime/homelessness/etc, Eastern europe is now doing better than West :)

E.g. coming from East, it's shocking how some West cities treat small crimes as part&parcel of living in the city.

Regarding healthcare and capital investments, the author would do well to read his own publication: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09/heartland...

"The old narrative was simple: Per capita incomes in the US might range 30% higher or more, but Western European lifestyles are less stressful and more relaxing. European health care systems, and their near-universal coverage, are also superior.

That narrative now lies in tatters."

I'm the first to defend the U.S.A. when they're getting shat on over here (I'm no fan, but feel like the country doesn't get enough credit for the good it does, and too much easy criticism), but this is bullshit, and putting the statement on a separate paragraph for impact isn't working.

Nothing in the article (all points I would argue against anyway) detracts from the fact that yes, life in most European countries _is_ less stressful. Things I take for granted here are apparently areas of stress in the U.S.A.:

* I can get sick and not even think about what it will cost. It's simply not in the picture

* The police are public servants here, and know it

* I don't have to cower under my boss in fear of losing my job

* I don't have to worry about getting _shot!_ I mean, Jesus!

* We have normal proper food at normal prices. Fresh organic vegetables and meat are not luxury items!

* I can't get evicted from my flat on a whim of the landlord

* I don't have to think about saving money up to educate my child — and even then, having him in debt afterwards

I feel like I could go on, but these are probably the biggest stress points I'd have moving there. You guys have some cool things, but damn you need to fix up and get out of this dichotomous way of thinking about "socialism" vs. "capitalism".

Life is great in USA when you are rich or sufficiently well off.

If you're on Wall Street life is good indeed.

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