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There is a middle point between city center and car-dependent sprawl. We’ve just mostly outlawed building any new places in this in-between style, so the only ones remaining are those that have been this way for well over a century.

See “streetcar suburbs”: https://youtu.be/MWsGBRdK2N0

> I'm looking for a rural place to purchase a home because sorry, I just don't want to tolerate people's selfishness anymore. Density should come with more rules, both laws that are enforced as well as cultural rules, and in American cities it seems chaos and lawlessness are embraced as tolerance and compassion.

Have you lived in a rural area? If not, you should find a way to try it out before taking the leap. City folks tend to have the idyllic version in their head, without realizing how loud ATVs and shotguns sound at 2 am.

I grew up in a rural area, and I experienced zero instances of loud ATVs and shotguns where I lived, at any time of day. This view sounds like a TV trope, which one might lean on if they don't have much in-person experience of living in a rural area themselves.

The advice to try it before you buy it is sound though.

Why would I make it up? What a bizarre accusation.

There was no accusation of making up anything, as I cannot possibly know your personal experience.

What I was doing was pushing back on using comically outlier events as something representative of rural living, that the GP would have to reckon with if they were to live in a rural setting. Nobody I know who has lived in a rural environment has ever experienced what you highlighted. If you did experience that, it sounds like you just had shitty neighbors or you lived next to a recreational area where that is more likely to happen, and I would caution against extrapolating that experience to being the norm among rural residents.

The irony is I never have been woken up by ATV's and shotguns in decades growing up in a rural environment, but have certainly been woken up by those things a number of times in urban environments.

It's great that you experienced the idyllic version, but note that the phrase "rural area" glosses over a diverse array of places, and that your experience may not be universal.

ATVs sound a lot louder at 2am in the city, but nobody is going to call you racist for complaining about the ones in the country.

IME, the difference is the ambient noise.

Vehicles at 2am? That sounds like a step above 24 hours a day.

I think more universal rural challenges for people that are from more populated areas are... difficulty breaking into the community as an outsider. Lack of medical services. Lack of restaurants. Lack of services in general. I lived in some fairly populated suburbs for a decade or so before moving back to where I grew up in a fairly rural small town and the adjustment has been fairly difficult. Haven't really had any issues with any ATV's or shotguns in the middle of the night... I mean I'm sure it has happened but its not such a recurring issue that I'm losing sleep over it. We aren't too far from a fairly popular snowmobile route but I rather like the occasional whine while I'm cozy in bed!

Sounds like you should move to a rural place, and that's great! There's plenty of that in the US. And it sounds like you live in a place where biking on the sidewalk is legal, which I agree it shouldn't be (it's not here in NYC). But let's not throw away high density living because old people think the kids are making too much noise. As a New Yorker, I prefer the boisterousness of the city, because it sounds like joy to me. [1]

[1] reminds me of this recent article: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/let-bro...

If not having motorbikes ripping through the streets at 2am is gentrification, so be it.

Yep. The freedom to mod your exhaust systems and blast your stereos does not trump other folks rights to peaceful sleep. Basically somebodies entertainment does not supersede other people's basic biological needs.

I mean sure, no one is happy about dirt bikes revving at 2am. But that happens so infrequently, why even bring it up? Gentrification sounds like the rich person across the street from me that just moved in yelling at the group of black people laughing and having fun on the street at midnight. It’s Brooklyn, get over it.

NYC has an insane number of bikes on the sidewalks, especially e bikes, and especially in Manhattan, and especially in the non touristy areas.

It sucks for pedestrians but I can't blame the bikers when the alternative is getting ran down in streets without bike lanes. But if there's a proper protected bike lane then there's no excuse for being on the sidewalk or going the wrong way.

Not blaming bikers (especially e bikers going 30 mph) for threatening pedestrian safety because theirs is threatened by cars on the road is utter nihilism, and the type of attitude that encourages me to leave the city.

Another point against high density, so-called walkable cities. Going to my main rant above, high density without law enforcement is misery for any normal person.

The e-bike drivers jumping onto the sidewalk delivering door dash has certainly increased, but it’s not that bad. I’m dodging people with their dogs taking up the sidewalk a lot more than I am bikes.

But really, it’s all good. I choose this to the alternatives any day!

This article is ridiculous drivel. The author's point is basically that complaining about noise is another form of white people oppressing people of color? The author is complaining about being told to quiet down in libraries and homes.

Let me give some perspective on the other side of this situation. In college one year I had 8 AM classes each day of the week which meant that if I wanted to have time to exercise I had to wake up at 6 AM to have time to eat, exercise, and shower. In order to get enough sleep I had to get into bed between 9:00 and 9:30. In college dorms I consistently had to call the RA and file noise complaints because were playing music and talking loudly. Good sleep is essential to your health, your freedom to experience joy by being loud as the author describes does not trump my right to basic peace and quiet. It's the same principle from COVID where people didn't want to wear a mask: your freedom ends where mine starts.

A home or a library is not the place to be loud and boisterous, go to a student cafe or a bar or a restaurant. As somebody who suffers from tinnitus it feels like the same principle of how maddening it can be to never experience silence.

I think a lot of people underestimate the impact that excess noise (and of course lack of sleep as a result of that) can have on your mental health. And of course people just chalk it up to old people complaining about kids. I'm in my 20s.

I’m sorry that the city noise makes it hard for you to sleep. As someone with tinnitus as well I know how it can be. Personally, for me I like to have the background noise of the city because it sounds like life to me. The loudest, most distracting thing to me is to be in a sealed up house with climate control and no outside noise, it makes the tinnitus really bad. Last time I found myself in that situation I had to find a way to open the windows, to at least hear the wind and the insects.

My major criticism of living in the city is that everything is just really difficult. Sure, my apartment is only a 15 minute walk to the grocery store, and not a 10 minute drive, but it’s really damn hard to carry a big load of groceries for a mile. My apartment is on the third floor so moving any furniture in or any outdoor gear is a huge hassle. I have nowhere to store anything. I don’t have laundry in my unit. I have shitty heat in the winter. The building has mice. Oh, and this is in a nice part of an expensive city!

> Density should come with more rules, both laws that are enforced as well as cultural rules,

Singapore figured it out. Makes it a very liveable yet super-dense city.

What city is this?

Strawman City

I've lived in: - Chicago - Baltimore - St Paul, MN - Minneapolis, MN - Cincinnati, OH

They all feel exactly the same with regard to the complaints in the post you are replying to.

When I was younger, cities were excellent and I would never have imagined wanting to live outside an urban center.

Now I am older and have kids and have massively different priorities than I used to; I wouldn't live in any city in any country anywhere. If it's not a suburb, count me out. I value my space, my yard, and my control over my ambient environment. I value my multiple cars that can get me to where I want to go when I want to get there. It's nice and quiet and people are fewer and more predictable. Yes, there are tradeoffs -- the culture sucks, but I can leave my house and go elsewhere for culture. I don't need it right outside my house. It makes my life harder to manage.

I read it and assumed Portland. Courts have been letting people walk for things like race-based hate crime (think assaulting a young girl on her bike for being Japanese American).

Another example, police arrest a guy for assault, jail/courts let him out before figuring out who he is.

Others say it is a straw man, but it isn’t when you’re living it.

Receipts:

https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2022/07/07/portland-mayor-...

https://www.koin.com/news/crime/ppb-seeks-help-iding-assault...

Edit: I’m an urbanist and I want nearly everyone to live in a city; but that isn’t a reasonable ask until cities are safe, clean, quiet (as can be; aka rules for noise pollution are enforced), and furnished with usable amenities like parks. It pains me to say it, but the current trend for US cities is not it.

That's NYC.