Steve Jobs brainstorms with the NeXT team | Hacker News Reader

Steve Jobs brainstorms with the NeXT team

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342 pointsshivkapoor52 comments

I recognised his trademark passionate speech (02:43) about using technology to improve education. Laden with superlatives, it's just like every Apple product launch since the iPod.

It's a great pity that education hasn't actually changed a bit in the intervening time. Computers are pretty much just used for teaching computers, as electronic typewriters and libraries, and to cut down on admin. They really are not used as learning aids, as 'simulated learning environments' or anything similar.

There's still a huge way to go in using IT in education. I think the Khan Academy is one step, the opening up of journals is probably another. We're a long way off what Jobs visualised even back in the late eighties.

    I recognised his trademark passionate speech (02:43) about using technology to improve education. Laden with superlatives, it's just like every Apple product launch since the iPod.

I think having Dan'l Lewin[1] and his strong ties with academia had a lot to do with this.

[1]: He doesn't have a wiki (for shame), but here's his LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dan-l-lewin/7/953/852.

Actually, his primary example of "simulated learning" is more modest than you put it. Essentially, researchers really did and still do want to have computers as a tool for performing experimental simulations and using computing for communication. Computing has been "marvelous" in advancing what scientists have been able to in the past couple of decades, and Apple is still very prevalent here today.

For example, even today the "workstation" is still quite common in labs. Where I work, I see a lot of 8-core Mac Pros. Huddled away under desks are old G4s and G5s. What do we run on these machines? MATLAB, Mathematica, heavy Fortran compilers, expensive microscopes, and almost-real-time experimental setups. In other words, all stuff vital to scientific experiment and computation.

Yes, he broadly lectured on "higher learning," but it is no surprise to me that the Web was born on a NeXT computer at CERN and not anywhere else. On the other hand, it is true that we have not seen the "simulated learning environments" or other AI-esque dreams from the 80s materialize in modern computing. At least not as we thought we understood them: OpenCourseWare, Khan Academy, and Stanford Online Education have begun to revolutionize the "learning" half. And as for open publications, well, the arXiv is 20 years old now (nearly the age of the Web!), the NIH requires open access 6 months after publication, etc. We're definitely not there yet, but I think we're on the right track.

If there were one thing though which would mark a great leap in progress, it would be Open Data. The incentives don't really exist today for open data---data can be like a trade secret to be hoarded for publications, and getting ahead in academia is all about getting there first before you get scooped. We need broad, systemic changes.

It's a great pity that education hasn't actually changed a bit in the intervening time.

I wonder how much of Steve Jobs' visions about the future turned out wrong (didn't happen) but in the end it didn't matter.

"It's a great pity that education hasn't actually changed a bit in the intervening time. Computers are pretty much just used for teaching computers, as electronic typewriters and libraries, and to cut down on admin. They really are not used as learning aids, as 'simulated learning environments' or anything similar."

I have to disagree with that. In my wife's second grade class the kids have electronic voting controls at their desk and a giant touch screen hangs on the front "chalk" board where kids can interact with various group learning applications.

Not true. Technology is used regularly at my kids elementary school. As a small example, at first grade, they start use an online reading comprehension program, and all of the classrooms (K-5) have interactive boards with cool remotes that allow students interface in real time with the teacher's teaching material. Its pretty interesting polling students in real time on what their thoughts are on a given subject matter, and seeing the results in the screen in real time.

Great to see this old NeXT stuff.

I still have my NeXTStation Turbo Color, and shockingly, it still runs! Other than my current iMac, it's easily my favorite computer ever. To be using a NeXT in the early 1990s truly was like being 15 years ahead of what everyone else had.

A NeXTStation was my first entry to the Internet in 1994 at UCI. God that was a great machine.

That and Irix were my first forays into the net and Unix incidentally.

God I miss mine. I put mine out on the curb on moving day, after graduation, because I didn't have enough room in the car. I changed my mind and went back to get it and it was gone not even 15 minutes.

Whoever took her from Pheasant Run Crossings, I hope you're treating her well.

I also have a NeXTStation ("color slab"). Every 2-3 years, I turn it on, and show people what I was using, back in 1992. They never fail to be amazed. It was a great machine, and also a great community.

The original youtube link was posted on HN three times in the past day...

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3257547

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3258750

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3258731

Apparently reading HN is all it takes to be a breaking tech news blogger theses days =P

Hah! Yeah, sorry didn't see those. This video was originally posted by Layar CEO Raimo van der Klein here: http://cl.ly/2J0d1v2K1F3x3y3F401T Right around the time that Jobs resigned. I had it tucked away in Instapaper as it was hosted on a Dutch video sharing site that also shared a lot of Porn and I would rather share it from a YouTube upload.

When I saw the YT link for this video posted on Twitter (probably via someone browsing HN) I found the other two from Slomacuser and thought that they would be a good counterpoint.

Good stuff tends to surface to HN though, so I'm not surprised it ended up here multiple times.

-Breaking Tech News Blogger

11:00 in the video is a fascinating example of someone standing up to Jobs' reality distortion field.

Why is that fascinating?

Because all you ever hear about Jobs is that he was a dominating bully. She shows that people did stand up to him (at least when the facts were on their side).

That's not surprising if you've read much about Jobs, especially the Isaacson biography. Jobs generally respected people who were confident enough to stand up to him, and he surrounded himself with good people who could do just that.

Joanna looked like she was about to lose it when he interrupted her, but she let him continue. Even she seemed to know when arguing with Jobs was pointless.

I agree, the same example jumped out. It was interesting to hear it called out to his face when she questioned being a slave to the deadline over the quality of the product.

That's Joanna Hoffman, who was also part of the Macintosh team. The Isaacson bio shares an anecdote about how the Mac team would annually give out an award to the team member who had proven most able to stand up to Jobs, and Hoffman won it the first two years. It was fun to see an example of why.

Thanks! I didn't recognize her. Added that info to the article.

What is her accent? It really is fascinating.

Sounds German to me, which would fit with her name.

Another figure is (if i'm not mistaken) Mac UI & Icon designer Susan Kare whom stands next to Paul Rand. She has a distinct smile. She seems a bit quite enthusiastic being next to a legendary designer. I bet she is the only one, other than Jobs, who knows the importance of the visitor.

You can see more of her here: http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/246310/

Oh man the 80's were really something. This is some seriously nerdy (but great) footage. One thing they weren't short on was vision, seems like that was in abundance (along with hair) back then.

I love how the "boss" is sitting on the floor while most everyone is seated on the couch.

"...and if we can't do that, then we outta go broke"

Thanks for posting, watched every video on it and found it fascinating indeed.

A few new revelation from them: Jobs' businessman side, NeXT's email client is far more advanced and sophisticated/simple than our current email clients, and Spinning Disk Wait Cursor has originated in NeXT.

"Take a really expensive technology and pull it down to a price point that is affordable". That's what he did with the iPad too.

Yes, the strategy for the Ipad seems very similar to Blue Ocean Strategy. Wii by Nintendo is another good example.

I noticed that too.. that's classic disruptive innovation. Expand doward into a market that previously couldn't afford the technology, forcing your competitors to ditch the low end and concentrate on the more profitable high end.

That might have been NeXT's goal, but they didn't achieve it.

In the video, Jobs says that three grand is the upper bound on what their polled potential customers are willing to pay. The first NeXT cube had a base price of $6,500.00. They also didn't meet their original deadline either, going over by more than a year.

Startups are hard; even for Steve Jobs.

If you think about it, when he went back to Apple, he didn't have to worry about logo, coffee machines etc.

In fact, one point he made on the video was that over at NeXT they had forgotten "how to be scrappy", and hustle for discounts.

They did better with 1990's NeXTStations, which were competitively priced with similarly-powered machines.

Jobs had a lot of uncertainty about what NeXT should build: very interesting part is around 15:52 where he says it isn't his job. He basically says that someone has to define it. It seems that he was just telling people to figure it out themselves and not providing much leadership. Would have been fascinating to see how it was resolved and Jobs's role: how much input comes from him versus his role as a facilitator.

I see a bit more stuff about NeXT getting posted around, I suspect this is because of Jobs' passing.

It got me wondering : although a commercial failure, this computer made a big impact. I wonder if, in 20 years time, all the cool kids will have an old NeXT on prominent display in their home? What other bits of hardware/software combos are going to be classics?

I think there were only about 50,000 NeXT machines ever sold, so there may not be enough to go around for all the cool kids.

That's what I mean - with a very limited supply, unique (and durable) design, first-machine-on-the-web status and the steve jobs connection, I can see this becoming an investment grade collectible at some point. They cost between $500 and $2000 for the cube (which will undoubtedly be the one to have) now, I can see a future scenario where they are going for 10 times that at auctions, particularly if they have provenance (ie owned by a famous person, Next developer, used at a demo by jobs, etc).

Well, I have a Cube and a mono slab. If you're right, I'm set for retirement.

NeXT might have failed, but it failed upwardly. http://news.cnet.com/Apple-acquires-Next,-Jobs/2100-1001_3-2...

You are looking it from the wrong point of view. NeXT IS really successful. Its technology is the heart of millions of devices, from computers to phones, and even part of the culture of the manufacturing process spill over to Apple. NeXT's team as well, starting from Jobs was the starting point of Apple renaissance.

I want to know more about NeXT. Particularly interested in the details surrounding the fact that the goal was spring 1987, but actual release was fall 1988.

Perhaps the Isaacson biography covers it? Any other literature I could refer to?

Go to 16:50. If you ever feel like you're scrounging for pennies in the couch: everyone does it and it's part of business at any level. It's typical for startups to spend a huge amount of cash when they get funded and pay full price for everything as word gets out they're flush with cash. It takes a while to develop a culture of being cheap.

e.g. the last time I worked in someone else's startup (6 years ago) I remember looking around the room and thinking that every one of the $2000 desks that were bought from a local artist is a server we could have bought.

The author's assertion that this is better than Isaacson's coverage of the same topic rings hollow. Isaacson definitely addresses the hallucinatory '87 deadline, Joanna's resistance, the "honeymoon is over" intro to the second Pebble Beach meeting. I wouldn't be surprised if Isaacson had access to this video as a source.

That said, it's a different perspective, which is nice. I just disagree with Panzarino's implicit assertion that a) Isaacson's biography missed this, and b) this gem of a video fills that purported void.

Niels, it definitely wasn't my intention to imply that Isaacson don't touch on these matters at all, because he did. However, I must stick by my assertion that the discussions of Jobs' motives and methods during this era is very, very light. This video adds a significant amount of color to the conversation about NeXT and the way that he interacts with the staff is fascinating.

So yes, he may have pulled some quotes from the players involved, but I feel that this short video tells you more about Jobs' operational methods at the time than the entire section on NeXT in the bio.

Thank you very much for your thoughts though, it is definitely a possibility that this was part of the material used by Isaacson, good point.

Wow, in the 4th video, where he's showing off NextStep mail application, the definition of smooth scrolling has definitely changed over the decades.

That being said, after watching this video it struck me how little innovation has being going on in the email space.

Granted, change for change's sake is not always a good thing, but for a video made before I was born it seems strange that even the mail.app that ships with Lion still hasn't fundamentally changed from its neXt forebears - we still have the three large horizontal textboxes on top of a large textarea for the body, and everything seems to function in exactly the same manner.

No wonder people my age barely use email anymore. A subject line? really?

What's wrong with the subject line? I'm genuinely interested in the post-email phenomenon. Us old timers sometimes would sometimes put a whole short message in the subject line, giving roughly the functionality of an instant message.

Do note that the video is not particularly good. In real life it was pretty smooth.

Is the guy skeptical about the software delivery Rubenstein (who later went to Palm)?

Looks a bit like him.

I think that's George Crow. SJ addresses him by name at one point in that video.

Fascinating. I'd also love to see the Lotus 1-2-3 segment. Anyone know where that is?

I'd like to see the whole video. Here's some info on it - not sure where to actually get a copy though https://catalyst.library.jhu.edu/catalog/bib_1261137

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