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Comment by mrweasel | Hacker News Reader

Hate to say it, but when I see how bikes are "integrated" into for example American traffic, I don't blame the drivers at all. WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road? If there's no bike lanes, then the bikes go all the way to the right, there are almost no exceptions.

I've watches a few videos of people biking, on bike lanes, in New York, and those lanes are placed by a mad man. Sometimes they are even on the wrong side of the road.

Go to the Netherlands, go to Denmark, Copenhagen especially and see how to mix traffic types. It's not perfect, but it's light years ahead of what some other countries are attempting.

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> WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road? If there's no bike lanes, then the bikes go all the way to the right, there are almost no exceptions.

Mainly door zones of parked cars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring

That's the main reason I was taught to take a full lane with my bike, and the main reason I do. (Apart from things I perceive as safety issues -- mainly dooring! -- I always try to make sure motorists can pass me when they want to.)

Look at the picture in the Wikipedia article, like NYC bikes lanes, that lane has been placed by an idiot. It's on the wrong side of the car.

Still, in places with no bike lanes, I sort of see your point, but who in their right mind opens a door straight into traffic. If it's a bike it's going to unpleasant for the rider, if it's a car, your car door comes off. I think it's less of a problem here in Denmark, partly do to placement of the bike lanes, but also because you don't park your car on the side of major roads and because drivers a more expecting of bikes perhaps. I mean dooring happens, but very rarely.

I'd say you're lucky to have better infrastructure that contributes to better safety. The bike lane placement in that Wikipedia example is dangerous because of the door zone, but it's not atypical for the United States.

> who in their right mind opens a door straight into traffic. If it's a bike it's going to unpleasant for the rider, if it's a car, your car door comes off [...] I mean dooring happens, but very rarely.

Here in the U.S., I believe it's the most common cause of cyclist injuries in some cities (!). Opening doors into traffic without looking is not that unusual, and there's a lot of discussion about how to change that habit.

Edit: the sibling comment points out that the habit of looking before opening doors may be different for drivers versus passengers. Anecdotally, I think some of the worst offenders are taxi and rideshare passengers (in the back seat).

> that lane has been placed by an idiot. It's on the wrong side of the car.

No, it's on the right (i.e. correct) side of the car - drivers are trained to look into the side mirror before opening the door, passengers not (and even if they were, they can't use the mirror on their side).

There are now some protected bike lanes in which parked cars provide part of the protection (!), but you need a lot of space in order to construct one without having the passenger-side door zone overlapping the protected lane.

It's pretty nice as a cyclist, in the minority of cases where there was enough space to do it this way. I suspect it may have required eliminating an entire traffic lane in some places!

Passengers in Denmark are trained to look before opening the door (by parents, usually), and it's the drivers responsibility if the passenger isn't capable of that.

A taxi driver will often remind you at the end of the journey, if you're obviously foreign.

(And you have forgotten passengers in the back seats.)

That's often a way to protect themselves, because car drivers don't know how to safely overtake a bike.

And imho bikes should be allowed to drive right in the middle so that a car can't possibly overtake. It could be tractor or another slow vehicle and people would find it annoying but deal with it.

I do the same when I cycle. And then, when there is an opportunity or I see that I'm starting to block multiple cars and the road is continuing for too long, I'll stop to allow them to take over.

In the same way, when there is someone walking on the dedicated bicycle lane that is next to the pedestrian walk, I'm not annoyed but slow down and carefully overtake them if possible or just cycle behind slowly until there is a safe opportunity.

How am I supposed to make a left turn at an intersection? Other than that, yes, being on the far right on the road is where I'd feel safest.

On a busy road the only safe option is to make two crossings: stay on the right and cross and then cross again. It is very annoying.

Depending on the situation, you can indeed move to a lane that turns left. But it requires cooperation from drivers. So in places where drivers are either hostile to bikes or likely to overlook bikes, it is not a safe way to turn.

Worst case you'll have to wait one traffic light rotation. One of the directions is generally green when you get there, then you'll have to wait for the switch and you can continue. But that heavily depends on how the traffic is routed. Not Just Bikes is very opinionated, but gives some pretty nice examples of well executed crossings in the Netherlands

https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

You don't. Sorry, bikes DO NOT make left turns in intersections. You go straight across, then cross from there. I've biked to school and work for 25 years, and in intersections, I never make a left turn. It takes 2 minutes extra at the most, small price to pay for not being under a truck.

Smaller roads, sure, if there's no traffic, you just look over your left shoulder and make the turn if it's all clear.

I took a bike safety class that was supposedly taught by professionals and supposedly based on local vehicle legislation (in California) and they taught us to make vehicular left turns, by positioning ourselves in the rightmost traffic lane which is allowed to turn left, and indicating our intentions to make a left turn with our hands. I've subsequently done this several hundred times in various kinds of traffic.

Did they make a mistake? Is this not consistent with what motorists are being taught to expect? Are motorists commonly not being taught what to expect, and getting confused about this?

I don't think California drivers see enough cyclists do the same thing to have any kind of consistent expectation of what cyclists will do, or what they should do.

> Did they make a mistake?

For California, I don't know. For western European: Oh my god YES! By all mean signal which way you're going to turn, but in intersection, especially those with multiple lanes, you never make a left turn. Drivers will not expect you in the middle of the intersection.

I'm genuinely grateful to learn that, and I'll try to avoid making vehicular left turns in intersections in Europe in the future!

The GP is plainly wrong. ~Everyone in Switzerland does normal vehicular left turns, and the bicycle exam for schoolchildren includes making vehicular left turns correctly (i.e. signaling, waiting for cars that are in process of overtaking you, moving to the middle of the road, possibly stopping, turning when the way's free of vehicles that have right of way).

E: Source: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/index/stadtpolizei_zueric...

> don't know. For western European: Oh my god YES!

You are over generalising. I don't know where you are but where I am in western europe cyclist absolutely cross intersections like a vehicle.

The trick is to take control of the lane. If you are sticking to the side cars won't see you. If you take up space in front of them they will see you and include you in their calculations.

And before you or someone else jumps here to spread some fud: No i am not advocating jumping in front of cars with zero warning. Or whatever silly idea you have based on what I just wrote. I see this done all the time, and I do it fairly regularly.

You have to be seen. You have to be predictable. You have to know where you are heading.

This is really not correct. I'd say in the most of Europe, you signal left, you take the entire lane and make your turn on the intersection. In many places there are even dedicated zones in front of left lanes (taking the entire width), so that it's obvious cyclists have the right to do so.

And the same thing on roundabouts, if you want to safely ride a roundabout you absolutely have to take the entire lane and not allow cars to overtake you. Otherwise cars exiting the roundabout will run over you.

For Eastern European: bikers can turn left at intersections, they must signal with their arm, position themselves to the left of the lane just as cars do, and drivers have to expect them. It’s being taught in driving schools, for heaven’s sake.

But just as you don’t signal and start your left turn in your car at the last moment, so you don’t with a bike. Unfortunately, we have bikers who go to a left turn from the rightmost position, don’t signal or signal when it’s useless. The rule for drivers is to expect and anticipate stupid people and not kill them.

I don't know what parts of western Europe you're talking about, but in Germany, cyclists absolutely make left turns all the time. Also, drivers are taught about this in driving school, so they will (or should at least) expect cyclists to be there.

For the record, I personally prefer crossing twice as well. But I'll disagree with "western Europe".

All the replies here seem very strange for me as in the UK at least, the highway code says that we are entitled to be in the middle of the lane if we need to be, and actually turning right (read as left turn for US / EU people), we're supposed to be in the centre of the correct lane for that manoeuvre.

There are always some idiot drivers who think that bikes have no right to be on the road, and who'll pass dangerously close to you, sound their horn as they're passing a few inches away from you (and the distraction could easily make you swerve into them), complain if you take the middle of the lane, but open their doors in front of you if you stay on the edge, etc. On the whole though, drivers in the UK tend to be careful when cyclists are around, and I've never had any aggression from someone when I've been in the second or third lane to make a right turn.

As a cyclist, I also find it incredibly irritating when another cyclist runs a red light, not only because it reflects badly on the other cyclists, but also they'll probably be in my way a minute later, when I need to pull out further in the road to overtake them, as it's almost always the slowest cyclists who won't stop for a red light.

> being on the far right on the road is where I'd feel safest.

No. When there are no bike lanes, the safest place to be is at least one bicycle width away from the far right of the road.

Some drivers will overtake you in tight situations no matter what. If you stand in the far right, you have no leeway and will get stuck between death and hitting the curbside. Take a safety buffer to retreat to when the occasional mad driver comes for your life.

With bike lanes, you go straight until you reach the bike line of the crossing road, and then you wait for the (bike) lights on that road to turn green. You really need bike lanes.

The way this works in the Netherlands is that there is a traffic light just for cyclists. Usually you just line up on the right of the road, and wait for the cyclists light (Usually all directions) turns green.

You are not supposed to take a left turn at an intersection on a bicycle! That’s insane. Do you expect pedestrians to do the same?

You go straight and stop at the end of the intersection. Wait for lights to change and cross again.

I would honk if someone took a left turn in front of my car on their bicycle in Copenhagen.

I hope this is a joke and not serious.

Bicycles are supposed to be on the road, pedestrians are not.

> Bicycles are supposed to be on the road

The point is, that they aren't suppose to be in the middle of road.

Why?

Because that's where the cars go?

You see, there is a system. Starting from the right: pedestrians, bikes and lastly cars. We never deviate from that system, that way everyone always know where everything is. Sometimes there's a bike lane, but that still goes between the pedestrians and the cars.

Also, if everything else fail, and this is what kids in Denmark is taught. If you're ever in doubt if the drivers have seen you, assume they haven't and stay away from the cars. You're on a bike, it's a great means of transportation and it's really safe (at least here), but if you're hit by a car, it's going to hurt you more than the car, so stay away from them.

I think it's weird that people in countries that have the most cyclist are also the people who least of all believe that bikes have some weird right of way or than bikes should just be in the middle of heavy traffic.

Conversely, it makes sense that a country with chronic bike infrastructure baked into the legal system would assume bikes use that infrastructure. If there is a safe, protected bike lane, I’m happy to use it.

In other countries, bike infrastructure is sparse, poorly designed, and frequently dangerous. Bicyclists must drive defensively to stay alive. Sometimes this means taking the full lane because staying to the side puts you in danger of dooring or makes you vulnerable to aggressive drivers who will squeeze by without adequate space.

Honk away, then. Whenever I make left turns on intersections, I pre-emptively check behind me if there's any traffic coming behind me, use hand signals to signal my intent to move left and then confidently take the lane I need, so long as there isn't any fast moving traffic coming my way. I would stop if it's impossible to cross lanes without impeding traffic.

IIRC the "don't turn left on a bicycle" was popularized in Copenhaguen. The city has enough bike traffic that the standard approach stops working.

Though a left turn on small roads (e.g. in the city centre) is fine.

In many other countries, bicycles turning left are expected to move to the middle of the leftmost lane and make the turn exactly as a car would. It's hardly surprising that those countries don't have so many people cycling as Denmark or the Netherlands.

If there is no bike lane, the only safe thing to do as a cyclist is to take the full lane, because there is not enough space for cars to safely overtake you. That won't stop some drivers from doing it anyway, so better block them and be safe.

> WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road?

I used to ride as far to the right as possible on roads without bike lanes, but then I got hit by a driver trying to squeeze past me without changing lanes.

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