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Comment by AndrewKemendo | Hacker News Reader

The science has been in a long time that no amount of alcohol is healthy. Despite overwhelming experimental, historical and anecdotal evidence, 60% of Americans drink ~4 drinks per week - which luckily is on the decline.

Something is seriously wrong with humanity if poisoning ourselves regularly to dissociate with reality remains this popular as a core social component. People will point to all of the supposed "social lubricant" benefits etc... of drinking culture, but I'm not convinced it's anything but a band-aid on some combination of social anxiety and existential dread.

I fully support anyone doing whatever they like with their body, but we should be able to at least acknowledge that any alcohol in any amount is self destructive.

I say this as a former Beer and Whiskey nerd by the way.

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We've been drinking alcohol for 8000 years now so I wish you the best of luck on your crusade to show that it's "something wrong with humanity".

Yeah, that was an interesting comment. I understand where they're coming from, but humans have been ingesting things - even beyond alcohol - to modify their reality for a very, very, very long time. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with asking why it is that we have continued to do this, collectively, as a species, but I hesitate to suggest that it implies that there is "something wrong with humanity".

Maybe it's the fact that we all realize our mortality, and the benefit that it has on a species. Nature has built into us a few limiters to over-flourishing, like it has for many other species: a short life-span with expendable body components - we've overcome that with medicine and other life-extending tech. A disinterest in procreation - we're trending in that direction but the procreators are probably gonna win that battle. Limited resources - science is finding ways to exploit new resources while diminishing the quality of life for all.

I'm a drinker and proud of the contributions I still make to society, but also that I won't hang on for too long past my invitation to stay on this rock. There are people better than me who should occupy it.

Alcohol habits have varied immensely across times and cultures, both in terms of consumption and in beliefs about the effect of alcohol. There's plenty of room to change, even if you only think what has happened before is possible.

yes: https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption

If you ever find yourself in a scenario where clean water isn’t available. Beer might be one of the few things you can drink that won’t kill you.

> Beer might be one of the few things you can drink that won’t kill you

... Because the process of making beer consists of boiling the wort!

But if you can boil water to make beer, you can just, well, boil water to drink.

People have known since antiquity how to make water potable.

You can keep beer waaay longer usable than you can keep boiled water fresh.

Why would that be? Alcohol can spoil too.

What is stale water?

I suppose that having a small amount of silver or even just copper touching the water can seriously prolong its shelf life, so to say.

Also, putting sterilized water into airtight sterilized containers, as normally done with beer, works well. Carry a can of Liquid Death with you instead of a can of Bud, the weight is the same.

Alcohol has a diuretic effect. It makes the kidneys produce urine. Without access to actual clean water, it seems to me that drinking alcohol will just dehydrate the person even faster.

Ever study human history? Something is definitely wrong with humanity.

This is it. It would almost drive ye to drink.

"Alcohol - the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."

*only if you're a dumbass who thinks illegal drugs are all bad.

Reminds me of the Whiskey Speech: https://academyatthelakes.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Noa...

They also sacrificed humans to their gods. The tenure of a bad habit is not an argument in favour of the habit. I recall ancient romans used lead to enhance the taste of wine, if that practice had persisted nobody today would advocate for it give what we now know (and they suspected) about the effects of lead.

And while we know that ancient civilisations drank alcohol, we don’t know how widespread or frequent it was, was it just an elite? Was it a very occasional ceremony (as some indigenous tribes still do, using psychoactive substances as part of group rituals once or twice per year)?

> They also sacrificed humans to their gods. The tenure of a bad habit is not an argument in favour of the habit.

But how certain are you that most of the problems that we struggle with today aren't a result of insufficient ritual sacrifice? Maybe we need to heed the lesson taught to us by the movie Cabin in the Woods.

Isn't 8000 years ago about the time the Bible says that humanity began to sin?

According to the literal reading of the old testament, humanity did not even exist by then, and the world itself did not exist. There can't be a bad habit as old as 8000 years.

I think you mean "literalistic". When the plain words are plainly meant to be understood in a non-literal way, then to interpret them literally is in fact not to interpret them "literally". I use the word "literalistic" for the kind of moronic reasoning that assumes that if one of King David's psalms says that God will shelter you under his wings, then that means that God must have wings. Or when the author of The Song of Songs writes "Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbim" then that means that this woman's eyes are actually the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbim.

So if you're going to be a moron, then you can claim that the Bible teaches that the world was created in six days 6,000 years ago, with the light from distant stars already in transit.

Humanity has been doing a lot of things for most part of these 8000 years, from casual genocide at wars to not washing hands before a meal. Much of it has changed in recent couple of centuries, with pretty obvious positive effects.

Maybe humanity is not that hopeless.

Humans have done a lot of things for thousands of years that modern sensibilities now find unsavory. Slavery, human sacrifice, purchasing a bride, and to a lesser extent religion in general.

Wasn’t it the Europeans who brought alcohol to the New World?

There are so many things in our life that cause harm in any quantity. For instance, exposure to fine particulate is directly correlated with all cause mortality. Yet almost everyone drives or rides the subway, even though both activities expose you to fine particulate. For many, the benefits of transportation outweigh the negative health impact. Many feel the same way about alcohol.

Unlike alcohol, riding a subway does not rig your feeling of what's beneficial for you at the moment.

Many games do, though.

I bet even with literally perfect lives humans would still drink alcohol and consume other drugs. It's a chemical you can ingest that gives you different experiences than you normally could or would. That will NEVER not be attractive to the human brain, even if you think that's irrational. Humans are curious creatures, and that curiosity includes the desire to understand dangerous or weird things.

Fully concur!

However what you describe - effectively novelty seeking, which is very human - is a far cry from the chronic alcohol culture that permeates society.

The former is healthy exploration, what we have however is chronic dissociation.

I think there’s a second order effect here you’re not seeing. Social acceptance makes imbibing orders of magnitude less stressful and you can still call yourself a “normal” person while doing it. I think that makes a huge difference.

I love drugs that directly affect the brain. It's incredible what you can do, they give you direct control over your own brain/body.

I hope in the future biochemical augmentation will be just as accepted as electromechanical.

> biochemical augmentation will be just as accepted as electromechanical

I'm not sure that electromechanical modification is accepted today. Things like limb replacements are now accepted for those with injuries - but I don't think there is widespread acceptance of mechanical augmentation for _enhancement_. There is a grey area though for tool usage which is acceptable and what is "augmentation".

Is having a drink or two a week really measurably self-destructive? How does it measure compared to sitting at a desk all day, or putting mayo in your sandwiches?

Sedentary lifestyle is a known carcinogen in the state of California. /s

edit: for the non-Californians, this is a reference to proposition 65. https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/07/opinion-californias-j...

Oh, all of us non-Californians know as well. The warning label is put on products nationally - probably not worth manufacturing a CA variant of product packaging in most cases.

The fact that people are actively destroying themselves via multiple vectors does not mean that each vector isn't existential.

But is it the sort of risk that even registers on the meter?

Everything in moderation including moderation, as the saying goes.

> I fully support anyone doing whatever they like with their body, but we should be able to at least acknowledge that any alcohol in any amount is self destructive.

Yes. There is a related issue, which is that a lot of people just can't accept that something they like is actually detrimental. Since I've never drank, I never experienced this specific kind of cognitive dissonance (if you can even call it that), but I've seen in so many people, it's depressing. There are some things that I love despite knowing that they are bad for your health (like certain unhealhty foods), but I would hate to deceive myself about it (knowing that they are bad allows me to manage the risks, like being aware that I should reduce consumption if I'm indulging too much). But a lot of people have the exact opposite attitude. Which is curious, because the damages are some times very obvious.

Life is all about trade offs, i would find no joy in trying to live a life where i never get to eat pizza, drink a beer etc...

> but we should be able to at least acknowledge that any alcohol in any amount is self destructive.

Is driving in any amount self-destructive? Eating bacon? If we're going to call mildly (or moderately) unhealthy things "self-destructive", what term should we use for... well, truly self-destructive things?

> People will point to all of the supposed "social lubricant" benefits etc... of drinking culture, but I'm not convinced it's anything but a band-aid on some combination of social anxiety and existential dread.

If it's not alcohol it's drugs, if it's not drugs it's gambling. If it's not gambling it's approaching women at the bar. If it's not approaching women at the bar it's speeding.

People have a deep need to do something that entails risk or that it's frowned upon (or both).

Cultures where this doesn't happen such as Japan are essentially dying and going extinct and so is Europe and US aelbit at a slower rate. Will rightfully get replaced by cultures who DGAF and have a high turnover rate such as the Arab world, Indians and Sub-Saharan Africa

But every culture has been using intoxicants to change their head space for as far back as we can see. Everything from marijuana, alcohol, hallucinogens, dissociative, stimulants etc. as and everyday part of human life. Might we not have evolved to somewhat “require” it in some ways?

The flaw with that line of thinking is that we are not robots (LaMDA and Zuck, you can stop reading now).

We don't always (want to) make optimal decisions based only on how objectively healthy they are, and that's perfectly fine, and not really "self-destructive" in the sense you're implying. There's an adage somewhere about living health and becoming a beautiful, healthy corpse some day.

Alcohol is bad. Maybe cutting it entirely from your life will get you an average 0.56% increased life span. Will it be worth it?

This isn't to say being a drunkard is good, or that widespread alcohol consumption can't be a problem (see Russia's and native Americans' history).

If 4 drinks per week allowed somebody to dissociate with reality I'd suggest them strongly an immediate liver check, not joking.

I agree with this. If you're a regular social drinker it requires quite a bit of self-reflection and lifestyle adjustment to stop drinking entirely, which is the hurdle a lot of people face. But anecdotally/personally I find that it's immensely worth it.

Might still have a glass of bubbly in celebration of something or enjoy the occasional wine tour at a vineyard, but I have no real intent to continue drinking regularly. The health tradeoffs aren't worth it to me.

Note also that unfortunately it seems women are much more sensitive to the risks of alcohol than men. I'm not a big fan of this "mommy needs her wine" culture we have.

let us know if you find a solution to social anxiety and especially existential dread

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Anuyoga

AA was my solution vs the slow suicidal death by alcohol.

I should join AA if I have social anxiety or existential dread? Considering GP's comment, this is a worthless response. Also it wouldn't even apply to people that don't drink, such as myself. I'm glad AA helped you but you chose the wrong comment to reply to.

Well, I've never done AA, but what does AA provide that would be beneficial more broadly? Community? Acceptance of high power? Repentance? Peer-commitments? Shared-experiences?

So maybe organized, community-oriented religion is the right suggestion? Or some secular organization devoted to community betterment?

Yes. The 12 steps are a self directed self paced investigation of self and/in society. The community is welcoming, with diverse backgrounds and experiences. Humility, sharing of suffering and joy, laughter. YMMV

I'm somewhat familiar with the 12 steps. As far as I can tell the core premise is to give in to a "higher power." This feels very similar to a cult to me, in the sense that it's learned helplessness and that the only way you can ever have value is by giving in to the group/god/whatever. I am not saying 12 steps is a cult because it exists to help/cure addiction and it does so with mixed results. But the history of the program is very obviously centered around religion.

If you aren't already in such dire straits as to require this kind of help, it really seems like a form of self-harm to me. I've met many people who've gone through 12 steps. Some advocate for it, some protest it. I'm genuinely happy for people to get the help they need wherever they can find it. But I absolutely would not recommend it to someone that isn't already so desperate that they're willing to give up their autonomy because they don't know what else to do.

The solution existential dread is managing it, it won't go away because we don't have the tools to answer the questions that induce it

I suggest studying epistemology

Alcohol doesn't help social anxiety except by social convention.

Society believes alcohol changes personality, and that drunk people are less themselves. Thus, they judge drunk people less harshly (including themselves).

But alcohol doesn't actually change personality. It only makes your brain work slower. It doesn't make it go anywhere it otherwise wouldn't, you just get there later.

What we've developed is a way to split up when we're accountable. I promise you that split is zero-sum: the more leniently they judge your social behaviour when drunk, the more harshly they judge it when you're sober.

Alcohol suppresses anxiety. Up until the hangover, when it exacerbates it.

The cross cultural evidence suggests anxiety reduction, and indeed all psychological/personality effects, is just placebo.

Alcohol absolutely does help social anxiety by improving mood and lowering inhibitions on a brain chemistry level. There are plenty of factual and scientific reasons to dislike and discourage alcohol, the "it's all in your head dummy" angle isn't one of them.

If it was simply on a brain chemistry level, why does it work so differently in other times and places?

It's an example of bad high-status science suppressing good low-status science. Neurochemists asking, "Why does alcohol make us do this?" without checking with cultural anthropologists if it actually does make us do this, or if it just makes "WEIRD" people do it.

I did not say it was all in your head, by the way. The lower reaction times and slower thinking is obviously real (and present everywhere).

I understand your point and would have to read more deeply about it, but these things exist on a spectrum. Anxiety reduction, talkativeness, etc. might very well be socially induced with alcohol making you significantly more susceptible to the social cues. That isn't any more placebo than any mood altering substance.

Better drugs.

> Something is seriously wrong with humanity if poisoning ourselves regularly to dissociate with reality remains this popular as a core social component.

Yes something is deeply wrong with human nature, and human existence is largely suffering no matter how you try to mask it.

I agree that it's a bandaid but what solution are you proposing? There is of course the option to simply exit the game, but for various biological reasons this is a real challenge.

Poisoning ourselves regularly and feeling good doing it sounds like a reasonable compromise.

> I say this as a former Beer and Whiskey nerd by the way.

That is really interesting.

So, what do you do now instead of Beer and Whiskey?

Edit: Don't tell me it's karma.

I've really gotten into upscale herbal teas and mocktails.

I was recently at a very small but upscale restaurant and they had a no-alcohol dinner flight pairing that was fantastic.

There is so much variety and no downsides!

Sugar (in large amounts) isn't so great for you either ...

And caffeine from coffee/tea while fine in moderation, becomes really bad if abused as part of a pattern of chronic sleep deprivation which is really common.

There is neither sugar nor caffeine in herbal tea - you cannot drink too much of it

I have probably had a sum total of 10 mocktails in my life - each of which has less caffeine and sugar than a half can of coca-cola

Great - have at it! I like mocktails too!

I was just being a pedantic jerk reacting to: "no downsides."

There are often possible downsides to anything one can do ... but that doesn't mean it isn't something worth doing. I love to hike - I could break my ankle or fall of cliff - but that doesn't mean I should never hike.

> no amount of alcohol is healthy

Define "healthy". Breathing toxic fumes on the roadways isn't healthy, and yet most of us prefer to live near civilization. You can't exclude one side of a tradeoff, you have to measure them against each other.

Sounds like you are cherry picking the science, for example here is a cherry picked article by the Mayo Clinic [0]

Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits, such as:

    - Reducing your risk of developing and dying of heart disease
    - Possibly reducing your risk of ischemic stroke (when the arteries to your brain become narrowed or blocked, causing severely reduced blood flow)
    - Possibly reducing your risk of diabetes

0: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...

> The science has been in a long time that no amount of alcohol is healthy

I don't think any study really proved that a glass of beer a month would do anything to your life expectancy no?

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

For populations between 15–39 years old, the theoretical minimum risk capped at 0.603 standard drinks per day.

So a "safe" amount of alcohol for the majority drinking population is less than one standard drink per day

For populations over 40 years old, the theoretical minimum risk is capped at 1.87 drinks per day

Important addendum (if it's not in your link or people don't read your link):

There's no rollover. If you don't drink during the week, that doesn't mean you get five drinks on the weekend. Each day is independent.

For those of us using the metric system, a standard drink is 14 grams of alcohol. Which is for instance one small beer with 4% alcohol volume: 330mL * 0.04 = 13.2 grams of alcohol.

Good luck with these calculations if you’re using imperial units. And you’re tipsy. But for metric countries it’s not too hard a calculation.

Thank you for the link, but it doesn't seem like it's answering my question? from your link:

"This study had various limitations that should be taken into account when interpreting the findings. First, we did not incorporate patterns of drinking, and therefore did not distinguish between individuals who infrequently engage in heavy episodic drinking and those who consume the same amount of alcohol over several days."

From what I'm reading it seems like the study was looking at habitual drinker, either drinking regularly or in big amount.

As a former alcoholic, ethanol is the worst garbage there is. You might as well hit your toes/whatever with a hammer - there's the pain, the near instant release of morphine and the (very long) hangover :D

It is in our nature to disassociate with reality/consciousness imo, for many of us it's too much to handle.

There are much better alternatives out there and I wish they weren't so demonized.

> Something is seriously wrong with humanity

Yup, this seems quite accurate to me. Hence the desire to regularly dissociate.

I am curious on how did they determine that the people who were studied only drank 1-2 drinks per night. Did they measure alcohol content in blood nightly ?

> Something is seriously wrong with humanity if poisoning ourselves regularly to dissociate with reality remains this popular as a core social component. People will point to all of the supposed "social lubricant" benefits etc... of drinking culture, but I'm not convinced it's anything but a band-aid on some combination of social anxiety and existential dread.

Incas drank alcohol regularly and I doubt they were stressed for their 9 to 5 job.

Soberly and correctly said.

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