There’s no speed limit (2009)
sive.rs
sive.rs
It sucks, but there are people out there no smarter than you yet more powerful, and sometimes they impose a speed limit.
If you get the opportunity though, I'd still suggest doing what the author did. No harm in learning something twice, particularly from two different perspectives.
I’m guessing standardized education prevents the kind of judgment calls that would allow a department to let a knowledgeable student skip classes they don’t need to be in.
The school had a policy that you could not test out of the core courses in your major (I was a physics major; had I been a different major, I could have at least gotten placement, if not credit.
I had to re-take two physics courses at a California State University school that would have otherwise transferred from a junior college due to minor catalog year changes. Ironically the JC physics courses both had labs (the usual stuff in Electricity & Magnetism, and a whole bunch of optics and slit diffraction fun in Modern Physics), while only the E&M lab remained at the four-year university. The Optics/Modern Physics prof from my retake also taught astronomy, and was still harboring a minor grudge against Neil deGrasse Tyson from some shared research work in the '80s.
Also couldn't test out of or otherwise apply transfer credits to freshman biology, and the subject matter was at about the same level as what I experienced in 7th-grade science at a rural public school.
Intro to CSCI was unavoidable, as my previous programming coursework was coded under MIS. The cherry on top was the professor pulling me aside after the first midterm, telling me "you could teach this, since you can't test out I'm just giving you an A for the whole course". Despite this I still attended his rambling lectures, and found that he did actually manage to tie all of his tangents together rather like a call stack in human form.
On top of all of that, the transfer coursework that actually applied toward the degree that did surprise me were my technical training credits from the Community College of the Air Force. Ten units under law enforcement and field work actually took care of general education elective requirements - "Fundamentals of Ground Combat" was rather amusing to see on the graduation transcript.
I’ve wondered if the professors didn’t know or if the admins just didn’t believe me I would’ve been able to. (And this was with a passing AP test score from high school)
I feel like Accreditation is to blame. It’s such a racket.
its probably a more boring answer like university bureaucrats refusing to budge because they just didnt feel like it, which is a rather more tractable problem (in the large; individual students are powerless of course and i have been there too) than the accreditation system.
we need university entrepreneurs to disrupt lazy universities who arent serving their customers well. sadly lambda school has left a black taste on all trying to do this. but i have hopes that freecodecamp will do it the "right" way - patiently.
The same thing doesn’t happen with computer science.. i.e we don’t send young children to CS tutors 2-3 times a week and make them practice on a daily basis. Perhaps society has yet to master creating virtuoso programmers in the way it has spent hundreds of years perfecting the education of young musicians.
Iratewizard may or may not be better than everyone else; but he/she is almost certainly better than average at a lot of things. We all are.
I tested out of the maximum number of courses for my degree. It's insane. This is why I have such a low opinion of structured education. I hope to be someone's Kimo. I had my own who pushed me to build good software, not be lazy, and a lot of fundamentals on simplicity.
I talked to the more friendly advisors in the Philosophy department, who also had the ability to add and drop students from classes, and got them to add me to both classes I needed. I persuaded them not to worry about the overlap. I completed the semester by attending the higher level class except for exam days (I had to get a special dispensation to take one final early because their final exams were scheduled at the same time).
My point with this anecdote is that sometimes more powerful people try to impose a speed limit and sometimes you can get around them.
My CS class very quickly divided into "those who could already program" and "first time programmers". (testing out was not a "thing" then - at least I never heard of anyone doing it for any class.)
Interestingly it was more classification than groups. I spent time helping friends who were stuck, but I also spent a lot of time with other advanced students, in the lab, pushing each other. The assignments were trivially simply, so we just spent time making them more interesting.
Because the course work was done quickly, we had a lot of time to go the extra mile. Time we wouldn't get later in life.
The important things though, the theory, stuck with me, and even the early classes were valuable. Intro to programming only lasted a few months, then there was a lot more theory, and we could meld that into our code a lot more.
I went into college knowing how to code. I came out knowing how to program, and there's a big difference.
If you are in college today, funding aside, I'd say - don't be in such a rush to finish. Fill your spare time by sucking in riches, seek out every nugget, help others, be challenged, see the time as an opportunity, not a class to simply pass.
As a result, I learned way more than curriculum offered, got way harder assignments and projects (like designing a compression algorithm from ground up as a graduation project), and satisfied much more overall.
I continued my M.Sc. and Ph.D. at the same university (because I already had a job, and I just wanted to learn), and this head start (and being in good terms with the professors) allowed me to do similarly heavier curricula during these studies, too.
It's worth it.
If you want to work through this material yourself, you may enjoy Hubbard & Hubbard’s book, https://matrixeditions.com/5thUnifiedApproach.html
https://www.edx.org/course/multivariable-calculus-1-vectors-...
https://www.edx.org/course/multivariable-calculus-2-surfaces...
The dean was a cruel man named Warren Harrison who accused me of trying to "game the system" and told me that they don't tolerate people like me here. I shared the story later--other people had similarly negative experiences with the guy.
Of course an intro course that is this well thought out is rather rare, in which case experienced people should by all means skip the rote nonsense.
I actually was able to get our 2x weekly meetings to count as course credits for basic classes and the professors who ran the group vouched for me to skip some of the pre-requisites for higher levels classes. (e.g. I took Algorithms II while in the same semester the competitive team meetings counted as Algorithms I).
Then my family moved, I wanted to transfer schools to keep living with my parents while attending school. The new school wouldn't accept my "free" credits. So in my third year of college I had to take intro to computers, intro to programming, etc.
I did that for one semester, hated it, then managed to find a job writing Python. I still haven't graduated, heh...
I very much get the desire to place out of CS1 or whatever. My experience was that the overall college experience was the jam. A low level class here or there isn't going to change your life.
Doesn't hurt to ask either.
For example, I completed my CS degree in 3 months: https://miguelrochefort.com/blog/cs-degree/
College's point was never about learning anything for a while now, it's a credentials machine and the machine only works in one way: the one that extracts the most value out of students, the longest.
You mean shallowly enough just to pass a few tests that can be easily hacked by accessing the previous year's? You can definitely fake it until you get the paper, I've seen that so many times.
I asked to test out and the department head said no. I had almost an entire CS degree and still had to take the easiest course. We made a compromise that if I take the midterm and exam with all the other students, I can pass the class. I got a 100% on both and spent like, 1 hour learning Octave and C for each exam.
The lecturer pre-generated small black & white square bitmaps of single characters from a sample set of fonts to use as aids during development. (Just the lower case letters a to m.) Then your mark was the percentage your OCR could recognise from a much larger set generated from about a thousand fonts.
In the same course the next major project was to make an AI for the card game Hearts. This is a four-player game, and the project materials included an automated tester that could be given any 4 AIs and would score them against each other. In the labs we would battle our AIs while developing them.
I ended up getting the second highest score out of a class of three hundred students and I still don't know how to play that game well. (I got the AI to teach itself the probability tables for optimal play, which I didn't memorise.)
He used a digital projector in an era where that was still rare in even computer science courses so that he could demonstrate the basics of the edit-build-debug cycle. He'd deliberately leave small errors in the code to "fix" and he'd get the class involved with suggestions on where to look and what to try.
All of his projects were competitive, because it got the students much more engaged if they were racing each other. I believe the year after mine had to play a monopoly-style game where trucks were going around a "game board" and could buy and sell stuff for profit, could run out of fuel, borrow money, etc...
Meanwhile all the other lecturers would drone on and scribble unreadable gibberish on a blackboard. We had one lecturer give us a final exam where half the marks depended on converting 7 lines of C to assembly, except that 7 lines had 5 errors in it. Two of the lines were just the braces, which means effectively every line was faulty.
The first language we started with was SML and for a good couple of months I just laughed at this stupid language with its silly and unnecessary limitations. It wasn't until we had to implement a parser in it, something I coincidentally had struggled with on my own, that I started to realize that I was dealing with a different paradigm, and a very powerful one at that.
I was less cocky after that.
Got to undergrad. Followed the speed limit, took intro to programming course. 450 person class, 1000 person wait-list. 75% of the class did not pass. Only attended two lectures, hand written programming finals. Never lost a point.
It wasn't until the 3rd year programming languages class that we wrote minimal lisp interpreters in scheme and did crazy stuff in prolog that I had that rewiring sensation.
Not trying to brag, just putting this here for others reading to say that not every intro to programming course speed limit is worth it.
CS is a totally different beast and I am glad about the humble experiences around CS. I might not totally agree with all the educators tell you, especially around OOP, however especially the mathematics around CS was impressive and very helpful.
I know many who took a similar route as me, but I've never met anyone who self learned math to a reasonable level. And since math is a very small part of a CS degree you could learn all of it in 1-2 semesters, so the optimal way to learn computer science would be to take 1-2 semesters of college math and spend the rest self learning. I bet you'd get a better understanding that way in much less time than it takes to go through a CS degree.
I got to save plenty of time by opting out of most of the lectures, but the groups and projects gave you feedback if you started skipping too much (something I learned in the introductory maths course that I also first thought I could get away with not going to every lecture for) and forced you to read at least the main set books so you got a good idea of whether it was material you understood.
It's indeed easy to think you know more than you do, but at the same time, sometimes you do know exactly what you know - been in both situations.
Matt Damon as the protagonist of Good Will Hunting: "You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library."
That wasn't true before the pandemic but without in-person classes it is absolutely true.
By the time I started university, I'd been programming for 13 years, I'd done paid freelance development jobs, and written my first compiler, and I'd done more advanced stuff than the first several semesters worth of classes. I had gaps, and I filled them with the group work and books, but there was no value to me in the in-person lectures for the introductory computer science courses.
Yeah and you did pay some attention, got a sampler plate, makes sense.
Plus it's fun acing courses with no effort every once in a while. It's a good sign.
It was also not about enjoying acing courses, but about needing to take courses that were compulsory for the programme and that you could not test out of. As I said, the option to skip most lectures felt like a reasonable middle group - if I'd run into problems with the group sessions, I could have easily gone back to the lectures at any time.
The other intro courses (eg computer architecture, which taught assembler) were great though, even if I found them easy due to prior knowledge.
Unfortunately that experiences doesn’t give a clear line for what to test out of and what not. I bet I could have passed the computer architecture one too, but I would have missed out, while the programming one would have been best if I used the time for something else (I mostly did, but there were lab sessions that were graded and couldn’t be easily skipped)
The thing is: it is hard to tell them apart quickly from those who actually already know, without having them take some test.
And even if you have them take the test, you cannot be sure they miss some fundamental core concept that will be crucial to understand later.
I myself had to go through introductions more than once that I thought will not offer me anything new, but going through the basics once in a while with a better understanding can be of incredible value
That seems like a bad reason to err on the side of unconditional speed limits. Opportunity cost is real.
On top of that as an educator you have a real responsibility not to send someone on a hail mary without fundamentals, which might ultimately drive them out of university because it will not get easier after that. This is a real risk.
Another aspect: What so you think how many students will try to skip classes if word gets around it is actually possible to do so? How many of those will cheat to do so? And bow many of those who made it through will be able to face the next exam without cheating?
If you pass an earlier test while missing some fundamental concept, then you'll simply spend the time learning it when you do need it. If you never need it, maybe it wasn't that fundamental after all.
You can probably find a solution with what you already now (as a junior programmer) as most problems programmers have to solve are not that hard but you may completely miss a better solution because you had no idea it was possible. I may be fine but you may also lose a lot of time later because it wasn't.
I agree that it's possible to self teach almost everything in CS but the point of university is to speed up the discovery of CS from scratch and have solid foundations. You certainly don't know everything graduating university but should now where to look when you have a problem imo.
Only if one knows what they don't know. And fundamental concepts have a habit of hiding in plain sight. It's easy to waste lots of resources because one doesn't know about a fundamental concept.
When learning, unlike the person teaching you, you don't know what's coming in the next lesson or the one after it, so it's sometimes a good idea to trust them on a curriculum. It's also the one of the biggest downsides of being self-thought (as I am in big part), you always have holes in your perspective that you're not even aware of and it takes years to stumble on something that someone else was told in the 1st year of being a dev.
College wouldn’t exist without it.
Given that environment if someone comes to "introduction into analog sound synthesis" I can expect them to want to hear just that (or they need the credits). If people don't come to learn, I will not force them. They are grown ups, it is their decision if they want to learn.
Please also consider that unless you have experience in teaching groups you might have a rose tinted view of what an instructor can practically achieve. If you have a group of 20 people with 10 of those having no clue what you are talking about, 2 that are very advanced and the rest with mixed levels inbetween you must find a way of teaching the 10 that have no clue while also not boring the 2 who are more advanced. This can be a hard problem to solve in a good way as you cannot split yourself. If your group is bigger it gets harder even (and at some point you have to stop worrying).
I am totally for people being able to skip classes where they can demonstrate they already know everything thought in it. But practically it might be a lot of work for anybody working at university to create such an test for e.g. just one person. From the perspective of a student it all looks a lot simpler than it might be. For example even if someone could test a student to make sure they are not sending them into a hail mary be letting them skip fundamentals, maybe that someone has so many other tasks on their shelve that even if they wanted they cannot do that?
Also: for every student where this might make sense you will get 3 or 4 that really overestimate themselves with a nearly narcissistic inability of judging their own ability. You know, the type that would like to construct the equivalent of an iPhone in circuit form while not being able to explain ohms law.
But of course they could. And indeed, considering them narcissists is what many hate about the academia. Maybe they'd be better off taking a less linear path. Sure, in the context of the academia skipping classes is not justified and there's no problem with anything you're doing. But when one is frustrated with schooling, the first instinct is often to try to go faster. Quitting school is supposed to be a very bad thing, that's the one acceptable way to do something different.
For the most part I had the nicest and most accommodating teachers, had no problem with them, they had no problem with myself, can't blame them for anything. But I do strongly dislike the nearly universal borderline religious belief in traditional schooling being the right way. It's okay to not know some thing and not want to know them.
Being able to pass a test is indeed not a sign of mastery of the material (this might come as a shock to some! Just because you got good grades doesn’t mean you’ve mastered the subject! It just means you’re good at the test! But wait, why use tests then? Well, sit down, get comfortable and let me tell you a tale of how we got here…)
The fact this conversation exists highlights that our education system is silly. Without evidence, I subjectively like the ideas in “One World Schoolhouse” as an alternative.
People who are really interested in the subject will not complain. I for example have been programming for the past 15 years and I will still read something like an introduction to C programming, just because there might be some ideas, explainations or examples in it that will help me deepen the fundamentals of what I already know.
Arguably there are topics where this works better and topics where this works worse. In electronics or mechanics groking the fundamentals is so essential to the whole field that you should know them by hard. And the only way to know them by hard is spaced repetition. So having some overlap in the things you learn is not only necessary here, it is crucial.
I know you typed it twice, but I just never heard that expression.
I think/hope you mean "guarantee" rather than "sign", because, yes, someone who has mastered the material is indeed much more likely to pass the test than someone who has not. The existence of non-representative counterexamples does not refute that.
That next course also seemed pretty basic, but I hit a brick wall, because I didn't have the required math credits to get into the next course up if I tested out of that one. And testing out of a math class, while certainly doable, was not as enticing as a prospect :)
The truth is, while it's reasonable for an intro to CS course to be kind of basic, I think it was a good sign that either college, or at least the college I was going to for computer science, was not a good option at that point in my life. Thankfully, circumstance would knock me into the industry instead in short order.
(Now I'm interested in college, but not for computer science.)
Where there's a will there's usually a way, but you need to either know how to manipulate the powers that be, or have enough confidence to bypass them.
I did test out of some classes, though they only allowed it for a handful of classes. And you needed to be able to get a higher score than students who had just finished the class, while doing so with much less material (students going through the class get told specifically what's on the test and are given materials accordingly; people trying to test out aren't given either). It was also surprising that on the Computer Science II test they had a large amount of the score based on memorizing default Java methods.
Because I was doing this strictly for educational purposes, I got really interested in how much students were retaining between semesters. It seemed to be very little, and there was little that they needed to retain. Most would remember big O, but no one remembered little O, big theta, Big omega, little omega despite the time they were required to memorize it. As I mentioned, CSII was very Java focused where students had to memorize specifics of default methods and Java inheritance edge cases, but after the class was over that information was almost all forgotten. You might have a class where you do a few weeks of stack based programming in a toy language, but it's not enough to actually do anything with and, again, is wiped from the students mind as soon as they finish their finals.
All this was driven home even more when I tried to discuss topics with colleagues who had CS degrees. They retained a very small amount of the things they studied in college, with the vast majority was met by "Oh yeah...I think we studied that? Isn't that the thing where [insert some vague broken memory]."
The whole thing felt mostly like a waste of time in order to justify four years of teaching. Of course, someone who never studied programming or CS would get _something_ out of it, but even there it seemed to be in the most inefficient way possible.
The gist of this blog post is that the average pace is for chumps and that he was able to finish Berkelee school of music in much less time than the average person takes thanks to studying ahead of time with a mentor and reading the books and testing out. He wasn't a 'chump' and the lesson is that you shouldn't be either.
I remember reading this advice 10 years ago and really taking it to heart. I didn't want to be a chump afterall and became convinced I could do everything faster than the chumps. But the problem with this is that it can make you beat yourself up and/or always feel rushed if it does take you a normal amount of time to do something. Like I've had to admit that I'm a really slow programmer. It took me forever to learn it. And I beat myself up a lot in the process.
But now I've taken to listening to more Alain de botton and Oliver Burkeman for my self-help/self-development. These British authors advocate for a much gentler version of self help. In one Alain de botton interview, he mentioned how we've come to worship exceptionalism and see being average as being bad. Oliver Burkeman's 4000 weeks book plainly states that you can't do it all. This has been super refreshing for someone like me who took Sivers' stuff seriously in my early 20s and then beat myself up for merely being average at many things.
Yes, but you don't even need to be quick (modulo company/team-politics, which tends to favor speed). I am a slow but good architect, but slow doesn't hurt because it's going to be dwarfed by implementation time anyway. Not to mention, paper+pencil+contemplating is the most fun part!
I found the rest of your comment interesting too, but I don't think the overall point of the original article is invalidated, it just needs a caveat. There is no speed limit, except your own ability!
I think what was lacking is a bit more concrete guidance. I know it’s almost the point of the book not to provide any, but perhaps more qualitative examples would help.
Definitely helped me overall and changed my mindset somewhat.
I am, too! Mostly the people I've worked with were much faster than me. Some are genuinely great, some just produce rubbish, and some are inbetween.
In my experience, slow programmers produce less rubbish on average than the fast ones. Perhaps I'm biased :)
With time as a limited dwindling resource, we all make tradeoffs and optimize for what we care about. From that lens, the "chumps" don't seem like chumps at all, and neither does the author.
So yes, it can get you far, but there is a cost to be considered if you don't keep it under control.
I love the no speed limit mindset and was endlessly annoyed at uni for not being structured like that, but at the same time it does take a toll
It is however very possible (and likely) that the author had already trained and somewhat saturated those parts, perhaps even without thinking about it because it was their natural state. In those cases you can become a sponge when a new modality opens up to you.
Rich kids who get personal tutors tend to not dominate their fields. There's an advantage, but it has to be coupled with alone-time practicing. People who alone-time practice out of genuine curiosity tend to underestimate the magnitude of practice they get because it can feel effortless.
Genuinely doubt it. But I guess it's possible. The pay is shit enough that the guys who would smash it are doing something else.
The material is largely classified, so there is no way to "pretrain" it.
The first 6 months to a year of the program is not self-paced, it's semi-traditional classroom learning except its 8 hours of lecture a day, 5 days a week. Homework and studying are done after lecture and the number of required study hours are mandatory depending on the sailor's GPA. It is very common for students to spend 60-80 hours a week in the classroom. You could think of this as an enforced minimum speed limit. The first year is spent teaching students how to learn at all-gas-no-breaks speed.
After that, the next year to 18 months of a nuke's education are spent in a qualification program that is entirely self-paced. You study the material independently, and when you feel you have a solid grasp on it you request an evaluation (think technical interview) about the subject. How fast or slow one moves through these interviews is entirely up to the individual sailor. But too slow and the sailor will be dropped from the program, thus why it's important to train them how to learn quickly.
Anecdotally, after the nuke program, university (NYU Tandon in my case) is trivial. The workload is nothing compared to the expectations of the nuke pipeline.
More saliently, the nuclear pipeline is not made up of "the best". It is ubiquitously composed of academic rejects. College dropouts, "smart but lazy"s, clever misfits, and a few enterprising criminals. The kind of unfulfilled talent that comes a dime a dozen.
The Navy learned that with enough discipline and a tolerance for high washout rates, you can get "greatness" for pennies on the dollar by making it yourself from the raw cuttings left behind by America's higher education system.
You need to operate within your capacity. For me this seems frustratingly low (50 pretty focused hours a week). Don’t know if others have a higher capacity or they’re just postponing burnout, but I have tried to go beyond 50 hours and it always ends in enforced holiday.
I have been wondering whether there is any psychological research on this. I imagine that it would be hard to do since focus and productivity are difficult things to measure in a way that would be externally valid.
I’ve carried that lesson throughout my life. You can do a lot more, in a lot less time, when you’re in charge of your own time.
That's a start, but I'll say that homeschool kids are a bit off, socially. It's not always a bad thing, but it's noticeable. And, a few don't have that problem--I think it's the kids with a lot of interaction, like on sports teams etc. Honestly, a lot of the weirdness of those kids was often that they just seemed very grown up. They interacted a LOT more in 1-on-1 conversations with adults than most kids do. Nearly all of them seemed smart for their age.
Scouts, karate, MTG clubs are some ideas. Honestly, gaming? In our lives I'm sure a lot of social activity will move to some virtual spaces, maybe VR etc.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck!
Nice anecdote. My experience is the exact opposite. The ~20 home schooled kids I know are the most socially adept kids I've ever met. They aren't shy. They hold nice conversations. They actually like talking to a mix of people.
So they do seem very grown up
“Socially adjusted” means behaving like someone who spent twelve years in a public institution. No more or less.
I think highly of the homeschooled kids I’ve known, for the record.
Described me to a tee.
That's not really a surprising result, is it? Most kids spend all day at school being told not to talk unless called on; plenty even spend most of their day at home like that (at least with the adults in their lives, parents "I'm too busy" and such)...
> Scouts, karate, MTG clubs are some ideas
Yeah, there were definitely a lot of kids in cub and boy scouts who were home schooled when I was growing up. For the religious folks, church and church events had an outsize proportion of homeschool kids as well (I suspect cause and effect goes both ways there). It's likely the homeschool community in your area also coordinates social events (even if it's just going to a park).
This is definitely a big one. There are homeschool groups which provide enrichment during normal school hours. The biggest boon for socialising as a homeschooled kid though is after school classes of various kinds (sports, etc). They generally don't happen at school.
Me, singing a few bars of Brave Sir Robin as our D&D party expeditious retreats from an adult red dragon: huh?
For socializing, there's karate class, or other kid sports. Church groups, going to the local park. You know, getting out into the world.
I believe she met lots of moms and socialized her kids with activities with them. She also did all kinds of things with her youngest son. For example they were docents at the local aquarium for a few months.
Any academic gains are not worth the social stunting, especially if the child is already shy.
Happiness in life is rarely based on academic achievements, but rather on the relationships we build. These relationships are built through social skills, and our interactions with our fellow man. Homeschooling severely stunts this at a very vulnerable time in a child’s life.
In at least two of the exceptions, the kids were specifically homeschooled because they were getting picked on in public school for being socially awkward.
Counterfactuals are difficult; I was far more socially awkward than most of the kids in t high school that were homeschooled, and I was in public school from kindergarten.
I think it is true that parents home schooling their kids ought not neglect social and emotional skills any more than they should neglect science or math.
What helped you with socialization?
I wasn't homeschooled before age 10 or so, so caveat emptor with younger kids.
School suppresses kids and forces them to conform. That's probably the thing it does more strongly than anything else. And it does it even more strongly to shy kids.
So you might've missed out on deep friendships, but maybe not. And you almost assuredly missed out on bullying (physical and emotional) and negative, oppressive social pressure during those formative years.
Meanwhile I went to school like everyone else from the ages of 5 to 18 and I still came out at the end with the social intelligence of a potted plant. Sending your kids to school doesn't guarantee they'll turn out normal - if that was true then everybody would be normal.
Just to cite one example: music programs. Drama programs. The arts in general. Hard to substitute for these at home.
In addition, more widespread home-schooling serves the right-wing interests that are trying to tear down society in general, and to tear down the public school system in particular, in favor of religious indoctrination and elite schools for the rich. Those interests are dangerous and ascendant enough as it is. They don't need any more help right now.
And at least in my school district, homeschoolers in the district could participate in extracurriculars like band and drama a la carte.
Not even close. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/08/18/texas-schools-in-god... https://www.npr.org/2022/06/27/1106290141/supreme-court-high...
Their purpose is to get away from the political indoctrination in public schools. And honestly, considering how much of what's taught in school about our government and society just isn't true... I don't blame 'em.
(To be fair, a lot of them would probably try and get away from religious indoctrination if it weren't Christian.)
> And their support of school choice means elite schools for everybody, instead of just the rich, which is the status quo.
How do you figure that? The well-off are still the only people who will be able to afford the best education, because the reality is the amount of money you spend on education is highly correlated with the success of that education. The only thing it will do for the rest is take those with plenty of money out of the public school's tax base, decreasing the quality of education there even further.
We were a lot better off when participation in the public schools was much higher. Draining resources from that system cripples it, and only a tiny minority can afford to send their kids to a quality school without it.
“School choice” means vouchers, so that means everybody can afford to send their kids to a private school. That won’t make the kid any smarter, but they’re usually in a better school culture.
As far as your second point, I have definitely met a number of people as you describe, but they are significantly outnumbered (at least in my area) by perfectly well adjusted people whose kids just can't make it in school for whatever reason. Not every kid is capable of tolerating 8+ hours a day of institutionalisation, especially if they have some kind of medical issue.
I think the approach that local government takes with homeschoolers in my area (of the US) is too hands off: I never once met someone from my educational service district who might have checked that I was even alive and not just a tax cheat. However, I think that we should be careful not to restrict the ability of people to home-educate if they want to. Its an important backstop if they can't make the school system work for them, and trying to fit every edge case into the school system is a recipe for some seriously unhappy kids.
Mozart was home schooled in music by his father.
Your approach really depends on the age of the kid. I wasn't homeschooled until I was about 10, so my knowledge of how primary education works is much more limited.
You will definitely want to ensure there are after school activities your kid enjoys that they will be able to continue if you decide to homeschool them. It's important to not rip them out of all of their social circles.
See if there are any local homeschooling groups in your area. I assume you are in the US or Canada, where this is more widespread than in Europe. They will be able to advise you on what's good locally. I'd be careful to ensure that the groups are relatively well-aligned with your vision of what you and your kid want (it's often easier to find religious groups as they are usually more vocal, my assumption is that you are probably looking for a secular one). If you can't find a group that you like, seriously consider before deciding to go it completely alone.
Don't expect magic to happen overnight if you do decide to homeschool the kid. You mustn't push too hard, especially at first. It's a big change. The most important part is to help your kid learn how to learn as a self-driven person.
Give the kid agency. Let them choose what they learn (to a certain extent). You need to secure buy-in to the process. Without that you will just be fighting, and it will suck.
If you're both working full time in an office type job, it's not going to be easy. I did know one or two people who did this, but it's much more common for one or both parents to be either WFH and have a flexible job or for there to be a stay at home parent (sadly this is almost always the mother in my experience, it can be hard for stay at home dads to break into those circles).
If your kid is high school aged: think about how they might be able to go to university if they want to. Local community colleges often have programs that are suitable for dual-credit. I didn't do this but many of my friends did. Look into exams like the SAT/ACT/AP and how you can take them as an independent person. I was able to get into UK universities (I am originally British) with results in those American exams. Many of my friends used their community college credit to transfer into 4 year universities. Talk to other parents and their kids who did go to university about the route they took to get there.
The other fun benefit is that you'll have a much closer relationship with your kid than most other parents do, as you'll spend much more time with them.
If you decide to give it a go, good luck!
1. Make sure your kids are involved in a decent amount of outside activities during the elementary school years that get them interacting with other kids. Things like team sports, music groups, etc.
2. Do NOT home school your kids through high school. I knew other kids who were and thought that they had socialization issues. You could easily argue that this point is mostly anecdotal and I couldn't really disagree, but I have a gut feeling that the high school years are particularly important when it comes to socialization.
About halfway through Covid schools started sending home this work they wanted the kids to do. 80% was a waist of time.
I never really thought about it till then, but primary school is basically babysitting where they happen to do some learning as well.
They were bragging that primary school is mostly busy work while ironically making a primary school mistake.
If OP's homeschooled kids were the ones denigrating public school while making spelling/grammatical errors then it'd be ironic.
Can't wait for sentence level autocorrect to appear. Because doing it at word level is not enough.
I mean, ok, swipe typing has been a great improvement. But depending on the keyboard it manages to do stupid crap even at word level (like suggesting a 8 letter word if you just "typed" 3 letters)
2. A lot of brilliant people much smarter than you and me have trouble with spelling. It doesn't take away from their ability in other areas.
3. Hate to be that guy :) but it's not a grammatical error
I assume it was "work" and that‘s the joke :p
I am curious if there is a name for this situation where someone corrects others’ grammar and then make a grammar mistake themselves?
I think I will start calling it Pontificator's Law. Let's see if it sticks.
I was trying to point out actually how simple it was to be better that what the schools were sending home.
Anyway English is an ugly hack of a language, the more we mispell it, the better chance we have to get it fixed to something closer to Esperanto.
However, my mother (who was much more heavily involved with my education) generally described her role as "less like a teacher, more like a principal". She certainly was in charge of the overall shape of the education, but a lot of the teaching happened in small group settings (effectively mutual tutoring) at the local homeschool group. Of course she did teach me lots of things in her area of expertise.
So I worked for 4 years before I got to a university and followed along for a 1-day introduction. They would tell their prospective students what they would learn in the next 4 years, and what jobs they would find when they were done. At the end of the day was a Q&A with some professors.
It was at that moment that I realised: 1. I know more than these professors do; 2. I'm currently a very skilled autodidact software developer; 3. I already know all of what they would teach me in four years; 4. they were working with outdated materials; they taught generics, not specifics.
These professors were academics. Google didn't exist yet. They, mostly, hadn't worked in any professional environment. They weren't pragmatic. They were slow perfectionists but also several years behind on the rest of the world.
And that was saying something: the bleeding-edge books that I was reading took at least 1 year from the start of writing to publication, so even I was behind on reality.
Even today I sometimes wonder what software engineering students learn in 4 or more years. It shouldn't take nearly that long. If you spend 20 hours a week studying software engineering you should be ready to find work in less than a year. And from that point onward, that's where you actually learn how to do it right.
I thought my degree was a bargain at the state school I went to. Also majored in math. Both CS and math had so many interesting classes, I found myself wishing school was 6 years instead of 4. Work is hardly that cutting edge compared to what we learned in school, which woukd cover the latest stuff in the literature in some classes.
Most of all, I learned that getting stuck at problems is normal in college. You have to be patient, spend a lot of time and slowly make progress. That helps me immensely in my current job, esp. debugging complicated problems.
This is the difference between college/university and a coding boot camp. At college, they are trying to teach you a breadth of subject matter and experiences to turn you into a well-rounded, educated person. At a coding boot camp, they are giving you vocational training and nothing more.
Each approach has its benefits and drawbacks and neither is appropriate for every situation.
I'm glad you realized that for you, college did not have a benefit, and you saved yourself a great deal of time and money.
> These professors were academics. Google didn't exist yet. They, mostly, hadn't worked in any professional environment. They weren't pragmatic. They were slow perfectionists but also several years behind on the rest of the world.
Maybe you're blinded by your arrogance a bit, because there's an actual field of science dedicated to effective learning, teaching, practicing. Although it's great that you found something that worked for you, it doesn't mean that you've had the best or most optimal learning experience. Every teenager thinks they're smarter than their stupid dumb teachers, but they often aren't.
There's a reason why things are taught in a certain manner, and why there isn't that much change in that. It's because these methods have been tried and tested, and there's no need to chase each new framework, method or technology, because it's all built upon the old stuff anyway.
These courses are meant to give you a broad understanding of everything there is to know about computer science. Specifics change, but generics don't. If you know the generic things it doesn't matter what the specifics are.
College lectures exist for two reasons: 1) because books didn't exist 2000 years ago, and 2) it's the only thing 1 teacher can do when stuck with more than 20 students at the same time.
Modern research shows how bad lectures are, but many colleges are still lectur focused because of tradition.
So, yes, college isn't about career training. But life isn't about career. I know it's not everyone's experience, but for me, college made me better at life.
It really amazed me how many students didn't see forest for the trees. Sure, the college could teach us RoR, but five years from now it will be something else. And sure enough, five years later it was all about Node. And five years from now it will be something else.
Typescript, Node, RoR, and so on are all just icing over the same underlying core concepts that have stood the test of time. Learn the concepts, and you will be an expert regardless of whichever icing is on trop.
When I took our databases course, our professor gave us problem sets with long lists of ridiculously complicated things that we had to write queries for in relational calculus. The problems all ways seemed so contrived. And why the hell were we writing them in some stupid mathematical notation instead of code?
But when I started my first job, I found that I had a much better understanding of how and when to use joins, derived queries, and subqueries than some of my colleagues, who used "where in" clauses everywhere. And if they got worked into a corner, they queried a huge chunk of data, brought it all in over the wire, then used a soup of procedural loops and ifs to filter out what they wanted. Unsurprisingly, their code wasn't very performant and was filled with bugs.
I ran into a similar thing when I got into an argument with a guy about JS on the server. He said JS was revolutionary because it allowed for async IO. And I said what's new about that? You could do that in Ruby too. The guy refused to believe me. He legitimately thought that because Ruby didn't have an "async" keyword that it couldn't do async IO. He knew the syntax sugar de jour on top of async concepts, but he didn't understand the concepts underneath. If fads move on from JS to a new language that has a different async programming model, what is he going to do?
You can learn SQL or Node from online tutorials or a coding bootcamp. And it will feel more useful than a college course because they give you concrete examples right away. But they will only teach you the surface dressing. They won't push you to understand the tough underlying concepts because that isn't easily done in a single article or a three week crash course.
The classes that destroyed people were Algorithms and Datastructures, distributed/parallel computing, programming language design, OS design, low level hardware design (here is infinite transistors and infinite resisters, now go build a computer) and whatever the two classes we had that covered Sipsers Introduction to Computation was called.
These were all classes that covered stuff you wouldn't ever hit upon when you were programming, but which are necessary as to know as a Computer Scientist.
Then there were all the classes that were, at even the smallest level, related to human computer interaction, which were entirely a waste of everybodies time, including the instructors.
I also hadn't heard of the (Dutch) Open Universiteit in 2001, but it allows anyone over 18 to start an academic study.
If you're a successful autodidact, you probably have at least a reasonable "academic attitude" - the main difference between a university and vocational training (MBO / HBO).
There's no speed limit (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761013 - March 2012 (194 comments)
There's no speed limit (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2766060 - July 2011 (25 comments)
There's no speed limit. (The lessons that changed my life.) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945 - Dec 2009 (60 comments)
The author is obviously quite musically gifted, as was his tutor?
Berklee has a bunch of nonsense curriculum?
Berklee has a bunch of acceptable curriculum, but if you happen to be a musical genius and have a musical genius as a tutor, you can quickly prove that you’re smarter than everybody else?
Is any of this meant to be inspiring to regular folks, or is it just for people that already consider themselves to be intellectually far ahead of most others in their age group or field?
… Who is this for?
Creating new things (research or art) is what takes time.
50% of people are more capable than the other 50%. Being smarter than most people is not such a rare thing.
There are plenty of regular people smarter than most of the people they encounter.
Berklee sets a standard so low that not just some people can do it faster, most people can complete it faster.
The point is, most people can complete everything faster than the default. But many don't because of these artifical "speed limits".
This would be the first response that answered any of my questions, thanks!
Regardless, even in the case the article only applied to Berklee it still wouldn't be a university specific question as not every student that goes to Berklee will be able to learn at the same rate. This is what makes it a per student question instead of an answered property you can apply to Berklee itself.
When I read the article it was about somebody that graduated early because of the rules at Berklee that allowed them to do so.
Is this actually a universal thing for universities?
Usually (in the US) a “speed limit” is generally a term that relates to maximum speed, whereas a minimum speed is called… a minimum speed. I’m pretty sure there is an actual lower “speed limit” for most universities in that it’s difficult or impossible to take (for example) 15 years to finish a BA.
Who is this for?
I'd say this the target audience is anyone looking at or working on a degree. Even if you're a slow learner already at a university that doesn't have any form of testing out it can be helpful to know learning the material strictly via the course schedules may not be the most efficient way to absorb it. For others in the target audience it has some good advice about seeing if you can test out to finish sooner too.
There's the crux of the story which I'm sure is well intended, this is the slight shortsightedness as to place this as an inconsequential part. I'm not blaming the author or any editor. I imagine they know how important this part is but it doesn't come across this way.
Without realising that "small part" for what it is (a huge deal breaker) the story comes across as either aloof or detached because it's impossible to resonate with unless you had a similar opportunity in your education at some stage.
And yes I did with my mathematical ability and will likely spend my life in awe at a professional musicians musical ability or a great authors writing style, but I enjoy understanding higher order patterns.
No one cares how fast you finished your degree, when you are 30.
We are only reading OP article because Sivers made a website to sell CDs when the web was new, not because of his excellence as a student or as a musician.
This very website exists because Paul Graham made a website ViaWeb to sell stuff on the web, not because Paul Graham was any good at making the stuff the stuff the website was selling.
This, I've found is key, but I do think there is a "speed limit". You definitely want the student¹ out of their comfort zone, and challenged. But I do think there is a depth that is too deep, where it will simply be so absurdly difficult the diminishing returns of the challenge are not worth it.
> the standard pace is for chumps
Yes, but …
So I self-taught CS/programming when I was in high school, and asked to take the easier of the two AP tests for CS. These were not offered by my school, and the administration balked at it: how could a student pass possibly pass a test for which there was no class? My mother had to convince them to allow it! We paid for the test — failure would be on me, so who even cares? (And yes, I passed.)
And I still find this: you might have no speed limit, but other people do. They'll not want to do whatever you want to do, often because it requires exerting a modicum of effort on their part. Like, they'd need to learn something, and getting someone to study something is, if they don't want to, is blood from a stone. When you can fly solo, it matters naught, but sometimes you have to depend on others. IME, more often than not, it's the latter.
¹who can handle it? I'm not sure if it applies to all students, particularly those that are really struggling. But for those hoovering up info, into the deep end.
The point is that "too deep" is different for everyone, and you shouldn't be prohibited from going deeper just because it's too deep for someone else.
A case example is Leonard Euler, one of the most significant mathematicians in human history by any measure:
> "Euler’s interest in mathematics stemmed from his childhood when his father would teach him the subject. As luck would have it, Johann Bernoulli, Europe’s foremost mathematician of his time, was a friend of Leonhard’s father and the influence of this great mathematician on the young Leonhard was immense. Euler’s father wanted to prepare him for a career in theology and it was Bernoulli who persuaded his friend to let the boy study mathematics."
https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/leonhard-euler-biog...
However, education for the masses is also important and there's just not enough expert tutors to go around for the one-on-one approach. It's also true that the combination of innate talent and motivation isn't necessarily all that common, or easy to identify. Notice how this tutor had a selection system in place? I.e. not many people showed up for the offer.
That's where the 'gifted and talented' programs have tried to pick up the slack in public education, with mixed results. Unfortunately, more often than not, teachers feel threatened by such students... not that high-quality teachers capable of tutoring such students (notice the low pay) end up being recruited by our public education system all that often.
> Unfortunately, more often than not, teachers feel threatened by such students
My wife and many (most?) of our friends are educators, and my impression is quite the opposite. By and large, they would love to provide more for these students – there simply aren’t any resources provided to do so.
If you do care about something long term, spread the lessons over time.
For fundamentals, Learning to learn course is recommended https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn
And what makes someone not bottom of the barrel? There's people born with talent, higher intelligence, but the real thing that makes someone above that threshold is simply a willingness to learn. Unless you've got some extreme disadvantage, persistent willingness will take you a long way, farther than most people. What makes some better than others is in their behavior, not their innate traits, usually.
Bit of black pill for this thread :)
If for example, you have been programming since you were 5, but you still are required to take an intro to CS course, instead of griping and pushing to skip it, just take advantage of the freed up brain bandwidth and maybe go take a class on history, or art or philosophy.
Taking advantage of the college environment to broaden your knowledge will serve you far more than graduating one or two years early.
I've thought about this in regards to SWE before. If I had an experienced SWE who was my dedicated mentor I'm sure I would improve extremely quickly. Unfortunately, that's just not tenable.
Reading the post in isolation omits important details because it's hard to quantify how much of that knowledge he was learning was first acquisition and how much of that was synthesizing things he already know in a way that is different enough to be considered a new lesson to learn.
Also, a good point to remember is that direct 1-to-1 contact with a mentor also allows for tacit knowledge to be acquired, not only instructional (for reference https://commoncog.com/the-tacit-knowledge-series/). Meaning that, another argument that can be made when you read an exchange like in the article is that 1-to-1 learning transmits a better quality of tacit knowledge to the student than a catch-all instructional knowledge.
And the point of the university is to communicate knowledge that is "everlasting". I see the article and the diss of the university as something required for software developers and I mean it in the nicest way possible but you're missing the point. University isn't there to make you a good tool builder (because that's what ultimately software is, it's a tool meant to be paired with hardware in order to allow the user to do what they want).
We already know how to become tool builders, disregarding everything that makes software so different than making chairs, guitars and swords. Universities aren't there to make you a specialist into web, mobile, gaming development either. That's why you see self-taughts since forever like John Carmack dropping out of college once they learn as much as they want to, before they keep grooving on their merry way, ultimately banding together with others who share the same passion with them.
Universities will never replace real world experience, and real world experience cannot replace universities for what they provide, because their goals are different. Universities don't have to remove the metaphorical speed limits. Even some of the experimental private bootcamps who value depth acquisition of fundamentals end up simply forming layers of classes where people getting paired with others who are working on the same concept. But that's still another form of mass apprenticeship.
fran snyder (2009) Speed kills the censor. One of my favorite quotes from "An Artist's Way." There are multiple benefits to setting challenging deadlines and defining your goals for yourself.
> “If the 5-chord with the flat-7 has that tri-tone, then so does another flat-7 chord. Which one?”
> “Uh… the flat-2 chord?”
> “Right!"
What chords is he talking about (or did he mis-type)? I read "5-chord with flat-7" as G7 and "flat-2" as Dm7, but G7 and Dm7 don't share a tri-tone, only an interval. ?
It’s the same example as on the wiki page for “tritone substitution” - ‘For example, in the key of C major one can use D♭7 instead of G7.’
However, what if I achieve everything before hitting 30? What would I have to look forward then?
I think some things are just meant to be hard and take a long time. You just have to learn to enjoy the process and understand that everyone has their own pace and that’s okay.
In his example, he tested out of classes that he was already proficient in—not all classes. Doing this occasionally would allow you to have more time for things that matter.
I've experienced this with guitar. Self-study can be done but you really need a coach who can push you further than you think you're ready to go, along with tailored instruction. You'll make years worth of progress in months this way.
If he actually understood that explanation going in, I don’t think he was studying music theory casually before he got there?
If you don’t actually explain things at an object level, it’s insight porn, not real learning.
(He did say "with the flat seven" which sounded like another chord entirely, but that just means seventh chord.)
I would have loved to have gotten a degree at a great university. Most of the arguments for a formal education are absolutely correct. But many of the arguments against it, are, as well.
But we make plans, and God laughs. Things turned out the way they did for me, and I ended up getting my undergraduate from The School of Hard Knocks, and my postgrad from The College of Getting the Shit Kicked Out of You. It's just the way things went. Long, sad, story (get your hankie).
I love learning, and still do it, every day. That's one of the reasons that I love this industry (It sure ain't the people).
The way I was "reared" in this field has given me some really useful, powerful, skills and habits, but I definitely feel the "holes" that are there, from not having the luxury of a complete, comprehensive education.
Paraphrasing, he said, "don't get too wound up with the syllabus, treat class and deliverables as touchpoints for your own self study". I guess it may have the same net result as "read the text" or "study outside of class" for some, but that view of things really resonated with me.
It felt a lot healthier to me to work in this way. I went down whatever rabbit holes interested me. It's not very efficient in terms of grades and stuff, but I had the time back then anyway, and I never really felt like I was cramming or grinding. When exams rolled around, I usually felt like I was in decent shape, just needed to do a little adjustment based on class hints or whatever.
What I will say is that bringing up college as an example of a place with "no speed limits" is kind of odd. I happened to fall into a place where I could shape things around me to fulfill my needs. I abused a program designed for encouraging undergraduates to do research to get a rubber stamp on all the graduate classes I was interested in. Not everyone can have that. Some of those doors have closed behind me, and were already closing when I got into the program. At most colleges if you don't have the prerequisites you're just not getting into a class, period.
I do think there is something to be said for there not being any speed limits on knowledge in general. College is one way to get it, and one of the last things I did before I graduated was try to design a class for students who were willing to go fast and deep. But a lot of it is materials, and people, for which college can be a very rigid structure that does limit you from moving quickly. In that case you might have to find your own path that you can move at your desired speed on.
One barrier are also tedious requirements like "do the exercises and attend tutorial lessons if you want to be allowed to take the exam". For a lot of people that's a good idea, but for some it's just a waste of time (tutorials/exercise sheets don't influence the final score at my Alma mater, but larger software projects sometimes did).
Not to say it's impossible here, just harder. I know a few people who were faster than the average student, which means they either took the expected time for their BSc/MSc or a semester less, since the average student took a semester or two more (or didn't finish at all). But people who really broke the speed limit? One, maybe two. Though of course that's biased since I didn't know everyone in the dept. For the one I'm sure of, I vouched that he should be allowed to take the exam without the formal requirements (I was his tutor in that course). He obviously passed, and IIRC he had one of the best exams while doing twice the courses everyone else did. A real genius & also a nice person as well!
What it tells me is that Berkley didn't properly divide people into skill level after the entrance exams.
I have studied classical music in 2 countries and have been to many different schools. Music theory and solfege has always been divided by skill. The people that scored the best at the entrance exams do the base level stuff plus extra fun stuff in one semester, whereas the people that score the worst do it in 4 to six semesters.
My solfege teacher told me there is usually two people every year that wants to do the final exams without studying, and most fail.
For what it is worth, it is an elitist field of study. The best ones get in. And the best of those get a job.
(Note: in the NZ system most degrees are 3 years not 4, largely because we have entrance tests that cover much of what in the US is "general ed")
1. "here's how you can get ahead of everybody else"
2. "Productivity porn is toxic"
I think by now most of us understand that both ideas are true to a certain degree. The hard part is figuring out how to balance the two. The problem is, most posts of one nature fail to address the other.
(just my take-away)
> Then, as Kimo suggested, I bought the course materials for other required classes and taught myself, doing the homework in my own time. Then I went to the department head and took the final exam, getting full credit for those courses.
As someone who never went to university is this really how it works? You can do all of the learning on your own, pay the tuition fee for the class and take a test without stepping foot in class to get your degree?
That's pretty wild if so. Literally tens of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper when you did everything yourself.
But I am not one to talk. I have a GED, and a couple of years of "redneck" tech school. All the rest has been OJT and following passion projects.
It's worked well for me, but, boy, oh, boy, do I look up a lot of noses...
I took 5 AP classes in high school that got me out of 5 classes and took 4 CLEP tests the summer before my last year so it would be my last (those tests are a very easy way to get credit requirements you don't care for filled). Then I dropped analytic geometry my last semester and only did 3 classes including the CS capstone because I just wanted to code at that point.
Cutting that short would have been the last thing on my mind.
You don't need to spend 80K and drop out in the third year to get social experience. Everyone else outside of universities does it just fine.
The only money I had to spend[1], was for the apartment I rented out with my roommates and for feeding myself. I had a fun and flexible part-time job for that. A lot of my friends stayed with their parents. Certainly not 80k...
[1] Technically that's not true. My studies had the misfortune to overlap with the brief time where there were tuition fees in Bavaria. It was around 300€ to 500€ per semester, and a massive pain in the a**. I was able to get by, and it got voted off pretty quickly.
Instead of 3 years?? OK.
We have too much bullshit in the world.
Hell, no one writes dense highly informative books like the K&R’s classic C programming language: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language
In a hundred years teaching will probably be done by personalized AI tutors or something and they'll look back at the era of some person talking beside a blackboard explaining things as some kind of barbaric idiocy.
Disagree. The incentives for school are such that it would honestly be surprising to me if the system were not designed for all to keep up. Adult, real-life, everybody trying to make money life is very different and this rule does not apply.