Singing: The key to a long life (2008) | Hacker News Reader

Singing: The key to a long life (2008)

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71 pointssni53 comments

I have a habit of singing publicly. I did not realise this was socially abnormal until I was about 21.

I suppose it helps that I have a pretty decent singing voice (baritone), but I'm also quite loud and my voice really projects (so I'm told).

I can't stop though. I made a compromise - I won't sing in public places (eg train, walking through the city), as people will think I'm mad. But I will whistle. And I'll sing at home, in my neighbourhood, local shops, people's houses, in the office - basically everywhere else.

Fortunately I married someone who has the exact same habit. At home we just walk around singing, sometimes not even the same song.

I understand some people are tone-deaf, and just cannot sing. But for everyone else, I genuinely don't see why you're not all walking around singing! It's fun, it's elating, it's expressive! I even sing sad songs when I'm sad, and it makes me feel better.

Putting aside shyness, there's people that don't even sing alone. That I'll never understand ...

Thanks for sharing your experience! My living situation is changing in such a way that I’ll be able to sing to my heart’s intent very soon.

The reason I’m thanking you in particular is that your story confirms a lemma in my pet theory of how human intelligence emerged. Humans are capable of interrogating their boredom, and not only observing but interjecting themselves in their subjective experience. What came first? Primitive language or rhythm? What came first? Complex language or music?

It’s obfuscated by modern technology and culture, but we can sing like the birds. More expressively, in some ways. Slaves sang in the fields and workmen in the mines. It’s the original smartphone, and perhaps the original way the human animal passed the time in a way that could be experienced and shared with others.

Idk, I’ve had a second glass of wine tonight, but your comment has brought me immense joy that I usually don’t find on anonymous sites, even HN. I didn’t even really explain my point in this comment, just rambled around and outline. Regardless: Keep singing, fellow baritone. Thanks for keeping the music alive. The experience of being an individual human being is all we have, and singing is one of those magical or amazing things that makes it, by all accounts, special.

To paraphrase an idea I heard whose source I forget: all kids sing, but at some point they start to feel ashamed about it. And then singing becomes an activity reserved for people who are "good at it", which becomes a cycle as the only people you hear singing are way better than you.

I don't really know how I got out of it, but at some point, I figured out how to sing again, and then in front of other people again. I just performed in an amazing concert with the best choir I've ever been in - like previous groups, I'm certainly not among the best singers. But it's just a joy to be a part of it.

> And then singing becomes an activity reserved for people who are "good at it"

I wonder how recent a phenomenon this is. I would imagine that all throughout pre-history everyone singing along was much more normal than everyone sitting quietly and watching one person sing.

Maybe I'm lucky in that while my dad is an OK singer, my mum is completely tone-deaf.

To hear her is an experience in dissonance I can't fully describe. It's the worst you can imagine, like a caricature only seen on TV.

Yet she does not care one bit, and will happily walk around belting out Mariah Carey at the top of her lungs. To the haters (her family) she says a resounding: "Whatever!"

Now _that_ inspires confidence!

I lived with a housemate who was similarly tone deaf. One day as they were walking around singing a song I knew well and it was really getting on my nerves... and then I realised they are at home, singing because they are happy/content.

There is no way I would be the person to dump on my housemate's happiness while they are in their own home, over something as trite as tone!

I'm the same way. I sing all the time. To the point where when I moved out of my old apartment, my old roommates told me that their life had become 'without music' since I left. Because if I'm not singing, I'm either whistling a song or listening to a song.

Back in high school, my family knew that if I started to sing while I was studying, it was because I had managed to figure out a gnarly maths problem or finally managed to grok a concept that I wasn't able to get for a while. It's my only (and honestly, best) outlet for my feelings, I feel. And like you said, when I'm down, I just belt out a couple songs and I genuinely feel much better.

There was (or is?) a guy in Vancouver who would stroll around his neighborhood singing opera at full volume. I’ve had lots of conversations with people who bring him up in groups and we all trade stories the first time we heard him, and we called him Opera Man. I don’t know anyone who didn’t find it delightful.

Edit: I found this little piece on him. It’s so cool, I must have first encountered him 15 years prior to this being written.

https://scoutmagazine.ca/2019/06/03/opera-man/

People singing in the office are my single worst nightmare, as I instantly lose the ability to concentrate on anything meaningful.

Thank God for shy people.

I keep singing all the time. In office, while walking, while driving and especially on long flights, in a very low tone. It is super relaxing. Am not sure about all the benefits but a couple of our friends get together for drinking and we sing a LOT. This is not some random singing, my friend is a trained classical singer so it is a lot of effort to sing with her but I love the experience.

On a lighter note

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HG2w0_WyOU

Singing in the office seems like the most obnoxious thing ever. Can't believe anyone would tolerate that.

Agree 100%, and I’ve recorded hundreds of songs myself. I’m not against singing, but it’s not something I generally walk around doing anymore (in private) unless I’m going through a heavy music phase. And I would never do it in public, even if you’re good at it that’s incredibly obnoxious and annoying.

> At home we just walk around singing, sometimes not even the same song.

Your life is either an upcoming Pixar movie or a living nightmare

To those thinking "I want to sing but I just can't sing." I encourage you to get one on one lessons with a professional.

I started out not being able to sing at all. Couldn't match the pitch, I just sounded like I was trying to "talk in tune". My voice would get very tired very quickly too.

It took a long time, but the change is huge. I can sing in tune now. I can sing much higher. It sounds pleasant. My voice doesn't get tired.

Expect to take 2 or 3 years to really get somewhere. Singing is strange, you can't really see what other singers or yourself are doing. With the piano you can take a look at your teachers hands, but with singing you have to go on a kinda of exploration into sensations in your body, with the teacher as an experienced guide.

Singing is one of the few skills I would recommend to literally everyone.

> Singing is strange, you can't really see what other singers or yourself are doing. With the piano you can take a look at your teachers hands, but with singing you have to go on a kinda of exploration into sensations in your body, with the teacher as an experienced guide.

Actually the same is true for playing the piano as well. Piano playing is not as intuitive as people believe because it is not just the apparent vertical movement of fingers hitting the keys. Rather, it actually involves the entire lower arm from the elbow down to the finger tips working together. What you see as a concert pianist’s fingers moving up and down is a lot of the time actually a series of very rapid and infinitesimal wrist rotations and learning these rotations actually require piano students to feel the subtle muscle sensations and movement associated with those movements.

Piano is a full body experience. It requires the feet to manage pedals and the back to ensure good posture. Not to mention the head which is driving the bus! It's not just the hands and lower arms that are coordinating. In fact I'd venture to say all instruments are full body experiences. Well, maybe not kazoo...

Singing is a wonderful skill and an amazingly unique instrument. Good singing requires awareness of the lungs, diaphragm, pelvis, butt and often (if you're like me and play guitar while doing it) the upper body.

Piano has its advantages compared to others. For example, if you target a C and press the right key, you will get a C. To get this far takes continuous deliberate practice on a violin, cello, ... (However, it gets easier with larger instruments as the target zone becomes larger) Another advantage is that 1 finger can create 1 note so it's easy to do comping for yourself and others. It's no accident that in conservatoria everybody gets to learn the piano (even if it's not their first instrument) A last remark: if you sing what you play on an instrument you improve your hearing and will eventually get up to a point where things are locked in so you can play everything you can sing.

I have been wanting to work with a professional. Any advice on how to find one ?

I have a neighbor who's a professional opera singer and gives voice lessons. From what I hear, most of his opera colleagues do as well. If you live in a city with an opera company, it might be worth checking with them.

(Personally, I've taken up beginner piano with him this year!)

Look online for singing lessons. If you want to learn in person (which I'd recommend) search for teachers in your area. Most have at least a modest amount of local or online advertising. You can also checkout craigslist or ask on a local subreddit.

I found my singing teacher through a Google search, and I found my violin teacher through word of mouth.

My wife is a singing teacher and has been trained by these guys for a long time. The education and training has been a very high standard. As always your millage will vary depending on the teacher you choose and their level of experience.

https://www.vocaladvancement.com/en-us/find-a-teacher

My girlfriend is an opera singer and voice teacher who's pivoting to primarily online lessons. She's working on establishing an online presence and is offering free consultations and promotional rates. If you're interested, email me at the address in my profile. She has substantial experience teaching people with technical backgrounds (such as me) and is fluent in communicating concepts accordingly. I'd suggest at least the consultation so she can guide you in the right direction, if anything!

I feel a little silly admitting this (which itself is silly because I can understand how ridiculous it was, now that I'm older), but I remember when I was a kid and I used to innocently sing along whenever I felt like it. My sister was a fantastic singer; she was an opera trained soprano and, as kids, in comparison, I was nothing special.

I think back to a time where my mom heard me singing, thought it was off-key, then mocked me by singing back what I had sung in an exaggerated tone. Mortified, I thought that maybe I just wasn't the one who had inherited the musical talent in the family. I realized that my mom's reaction was a shortcoming of her own and I as a 7 year old just happened to be in the way.

As time went on, I realized I did have a passion for music; I started writing it, I studied it in college, I even started taking voice lessons. But I fell off when I started my career and have never picked it back up again. I imagine that, much like going to the gym (or getting a personal trainer), it's something you can make progress on at any age although as you get older, it can take different approaches to make progress.

Is this correct?

Absolutley, in the end is’s learning to control some muscles, breathing and air: tongue, throat and abdomen. As a kid it sometimes clicks naturally but as an adult it requires some deliberate practice.

I started playing bluegrass mandolin some years ago. I never really thought I could sing, but after starting to get into the local jam scene, I saw what a big part singing played and wanted to give it a shot. I took some classes and some workshops, and eventually started to get comfortable with both lead and harmony singing (I'm not good by any means, but competent enough for the jam scene).

If you listen to some of the classic bluegrass recordings, there's an incredible amount of nuance and control in the vocals, and trying to sing along and learn those subtleties is challenging and rewarding. And because there's a strong tradition of harmony in this music, the sustained vowel sounds Eno talks about are everywhere.

While the group singing Eno talks about is generally frowned upon in bluegrass, nailing a close harmony stack with one to three other people (depending on the parts) is a fantastic feeling. Building relationships around that, where you're looking forward to the next festival or music camp because you'll get to sing with someone again, is even better.

I got into this music for playing my instrument with others, but while I still enjoy that, I appreciate the singing a lot more now.

Church choir communities are fun, supportive, flexible (you can walk into any church choir and belong), exciting (yes, I would like to go on a cathedral tour this summer!), and long lasting (sing into your 80s why not?). I heartily recommend them.

They are demanding, however. Think twice if you both sing and have small children. But they sure keep the mind sharp.

Pro-tip: if you’re an atheist, join an Anglican or Episcopal choir. Most of them are atheists too.

I am looking for a choir group to join. I did not see young or middle age members in all the choir groups I visited.

Generally only the really professional church choirs have members in their 20s and 30s. If you want to sing with younger people you generally have to seek out people you know who sang in university, and found a way to keep it up.

I'm the youngest in the choir I currently sing in (a men's choir with mostly priests and farmers), and I was in the other choir I used to sing in too (a mixed choir with mostly doctors and nurses). Somebody has to be.

There's a lot of youth and children's choirs too, so it's not as if it's dying out. It's just that people in the middle tend to have less time (the doctor choir was fairly middle aged, but you know how doctors are...)

Singing might be good for yourself, but is very nasty for those who live around you and don't want to listen...

Please make sure to sing/play instruments from within an insulated location!

oof what a pouty comment

Disagree, I believe noise pollution is the next irresponsible externality on the chopping block, after smoking/vaping.

I am sorry people don’t like it. However it is my home and I will do whatever I please in it - while staying in the boundaries of common sense and local laws regarding quiet times.

Don’t like it? Deal with it.

So how do you suggest you deal with a loud neighbour? Apparently, pleading to them politely is not something you consider a valid option.

I think that pleading politely is a good start. However, original poster wrote "Please make sure to sing/play instruments from within an insulated location!". Adding "please" doesn't make it polite, really. Neither it is a reasonable request.

Such a comically hostile attitude. Believe me, there are plenty of ways for me (if I'm your neighbour) to make your life hell, too. I'm really sorry you don't like it, but you'll just have to deal with it.

The key to peaceful coexistence is restricting yourself to accommodate others. Like singing? Go take a walk in the woods (or along a busy road, I personally do this).

Such a comically hostile attitude! The key to peaceful coexistence accommodating others. Don't like my singing during the day? Go take a walk in the parking lot, or along a highway.

See, this works both ways. Singing is loud, playing instruments is loud. Pets and babies can be loud. People can have guests over and throw parties, and those can get loud too. Should everyone forego those activities, or do them in an "insulated location" to accommodate everyone? I don't think so.

It doesn't mean foregoing all potentially annoying activities, it just means mutual respect. If you sing loudly enough to bother others and are asked to cut it out, a "deal with it" response is basically an anti-social tantrum. As much as you like the sound of your voice, not everyone else does. Deal with it.

It goes both ways, indeed. Good luck if you're ever my neighbor, you just might have to move;)

PS are you actually comparing singing to having children?

It is probably nice as a musician to not live in an apartment or any other shared living situation with nearby neighbors.

Occasionally I hear bands and/or people practicing on amplified instruments, drums, or brass, and I can't imagine how anyone on the same block can stand it.

Though apparently people across SF were mostly OK with hearing Green Day play in Golden Gate Park.

But all of these sound annoyances pale when compared to the horrible scourge of loud videos played on smartphones.

A thousand times this. Especially around people who are trying to work / concentrate.

Or control how loud, when and for how long you sing. Some people have trouble sleeping/working with noise and/or have different schedules than you.

For me it's always a godsend to find a quiet place, if the source of noise (no matter how objectively beautiful) is not under my control I can get sleep deprived within days. Yes I have earplugs and noise isolation cans but they cause ear issues long term.

No evidence for the claim on the article though. Where's the experimental data? This is an opinion.

I don't have any innate talent. My journey began with taking a singing class back in university and then taking voice lessons and classes at the local community college four years later. It took about 3 years of consistent practice and training with a great voice teacher before I felt I developed an admirable instrument. My self-confidence definitely skyrocketed, and I consider it one of the best investments in myself, even if it's not something I pursue professionally. The external validation is great, but the sensation of singing is even better.

I once read that singing might have evolved before language proper to enhance group cohesion. If so maybe there's a deep instinctive pull towards it. There might be something to this idea, I'm an atheist but when I saw that titanic scene where they are all singing together in the chapel I felt ... something. Maybe I should find a secular way to sing in a group like the a cappella in the article.

If you hold the same pitch with someone it instantly clicks some form of connection. It’s wonderful. Do try to find a way to sing, you will like it.

Whoever wants to learn to sing as an adult, beside exercise and drills what really helps is to live monitor onself on headphones, maybe add a bit of effects too. The immediate feedback helps a ton. Same for voice generally, live monitoring is a fantastic feedback mechanism.

Contrary anecdote: My grandparents are over 90, but they're lifelong members of a religious community that considers music and dancing sinful.

Personally, I quite enjoy singing and music, but it seems strange that an attention-seeking activity would be correlated with longer life.

There's nothing inherently attention seeking about singing - I'd guess that most people who sing only do so when they're alone because they don't feel they're "good enough" to sing publicly.

It's kind of narrow minded to singly attribute singing as an attention seeking activity, although it can be. It's fun without anyone around, and singing is as much for the listeners pleasure as it is for the singer's ego.

There's plenty of contrary anecdote on the other side of the scale as well, for instance the 27 club.

Singing can be done privately, I’ve never heard anyone say singing is attention seeking

> I believe that singing is the key to long life, a good figure, a stable temperament, increased intelligence, new friends, super self-confidence, heightened sexual attractiveness and a better sense of humor.

Opera singer here.

> a good figure

I'm doing it wrong.

Those were Janis' dying words...

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