Happy birthday GNOME. You might not have as many fans as years ago, but I appreciate the courage of trying something new. I miss GNOME 2, but yours is still my favourite desktop on the PC bar none. Looking forward to the next 25 years.
Happy birthday GNOME. You might not have as many fans as years ago, but I appreciate the courage of trying something new. I miss GNOME 2, but yours is still my favourite desktop on the PC bar none. Looking forward to the next 25 years.
I have a launcher, I can alt-tab between apps, I have a very nice file mananger, a pretty good console and, well, hemm, that's basically all I need. Ah yes, the BlueTooth thing is working but that user friendly; USB stick mounting is not super nice but works, everything is GPU accelerated (but tearing happens all over the palce), etc. So, yeah, it lacks polish here and there but it certainly does the job. Plus I get to read tons of community stuff about the platform.
I'm sure Gnome can't be that different and thus, we should be happy that the community has been able to pull out 2 major D.E. plus a myriad of smaller ones.
Happy birthday Gnome !
This is exactly the problem. A vocal minority only needs a small subset of features, and criticise anybody that want a little more from their desktop, or at least to reach parity with commercial offerings. And then immediately go on to list all the problems with the free desktops.
What about:
* Functioning Wayland support on anything outside of GNOME (common retort: we do not need Wayland.)
* Fractional scaling (common retort: Wayland does it, but see above)
* VR support (common retort: I just need a shell, tyvm)
* Lack of tearing across all 3 GPU vendors (common retort: see your comment, "I don't need it". Wayland does it, but Wayland bad)
* Variable Refresh Rate interface across all 3 GPU vendors (common retort: I just need this option in xorg.conf, if you're on NVIDIA it's your problem)
etc.
As I said before, I'm fine with everybody doing their own thing. But please be mindful that what works for you, doesn't work for anybody. There's a selfishness and clique mindset that is very hard to like among Linux users.
We're slowly getting to a better Linux desktop despite its users constantly bickering and pushing back any form of change that might improve their OS. It's a collective Stockholm Syndrome.
Wayland is -trying to be- a means to an end, not an end by itself.
> Fractional scaling (common retort: Wayland does it, but see above)
This is really a toolkit (and to some extent window manager) issue, not a window system issue. You can have fractional scaling in both Wayland and X11, as long as the underlying toolkit (or the framework above it) can do it. For example Lazarus / LCL applications support fractional scaling in X11 even with the Gtk2 backend (which itself doesn't support fractional scaling) by doing the scaling.
Window manager support for some common messages/hints (ala EWMH) so that the window manager is responsible for telling applications how to scale would improve things (e.g. being able to have per-window, per-application, per-output scaling values, independent of each other and independent of the DPI - after all i may want to scale some windows at 300% on a "regular DPI" monitor because i am taking a screencast that i want to be readable on YouTube even at bitrates).
> VR support
Last time i checked the issue was mainly that the space is very dependent on proprietary technologies - at least for the headsets that people would want to use. Valve has done some low level work (or, paid external people to do low level work, anyway) but even them have their own solution which i think is bound to Steam instead of some standardized way that can be used by any application.
> Lack of tearing across all 3 GPU vendors (common retort: see your comment, "I don't need it". Wayland does it, but Wayland bad)
Lack of tearing where? Depending on where you mean it, this can be a feature instead of a problem (or at least any solution would introduce unacceptable problems). For example i prefer (i.e. it isn't a case of not caring, i actively prefer it) to have tearing on my desktop when moving/resizing windows, etc than have everything tied to the monitor's refresh rate because it makes the desktop feel much more responsive. Similarly for games where i use the mouse, i also prefer tearing to vsync because it reduces input lag (especially with some FP games that have their own issues, but the lag is there even with perfectly written games - this isn't just a workaround to the problem if badly written games, the badly written games are making it worse, but the problem is there even with good written games).
On the other hand tearing during video playback is undesirable to me, of course (though with a high refresh rate monitor it isn't very noticeable - but i do not always use one).
In all cases, tearing is controllable through the vblank_mode setting via the .drirc file in your home directory and the vblank_mode environment variable. My approach is simple: in the .drirc file i have the vblank_mode to 0 which forces all applications to ignore any requests for synchronizing with the refresh rate, but when playing a video (or want to run some game or application with vsync for some reason) i run it as vblank_mode=3 vlc filename (actually i use a script for that that is launched by my file manager so i don't really type it but the same idea).
> * Variable Refresh Rate interface across all 3 GPU vendors (common retort: I just need this option in xorg.conf, if you're on NVIDIA it's your problem)
Well, yes, it is your problem, whose problem would it be when it was your choice to buy from a vendor who has repeatedly shown disdain towards working with the community?
My AMD GPU works perfectly fine with my VRR monitor under Xorg and i'm certain that the Intel iGPU on my laptop would also work fine if i connected the monitor to it - but both of these GPUs have open source drivers with support from their vendors.
> But please be mindful that what works for you, doesn't work for anybody. There's a selfishness and clique mindset that is very hard to like among Linux users. [...] We're slowly getting to a better Linux desktop despite its users constantly bickering and pushing back any form of change that might improve their OS. It's a collective Stockholm Syndrome.
You realize that with the latter part you are basically doing the exact same thing you describe with the first part, right? The people who you see "constantly bickering and pushing back any form of change" may actually see things that change in ways that do not work for them, thus making their experience of using their computers worse.
This is why when making such "improvements" it is important to do it ways that doesn't invalidate existing practices - which also implies doing things in modular and replaceable ways instead of moving towards monolithic designs.
(also i'm going to assume that in the first sentence you meant "doesn't work for everybody", not "anybody" since that wouldn't make logical sense unless you wanted to say "what works for you works only for you and nobody else")
Adding this to X window managers would be a flawed and inferior experience, this method would only work correctly with composited X or with XWayland.
>For example i prefer to have tearing on my desktop... In all cases, tearing is controllable through the vblank_mode setting via the .drirc file in your home directory
>Well, yes, it is your problem
This is also doing the same thing that the parent post is asking you not to do. It is not moving the discussion forward. The rest of your comment has very little in the way of meaningful suggestions that I can parse, you could have edited it down to maybe 4 or 5 sentences and gotten your point across.
You'll need to explain why and how it is "flawed and inferior", because the way i see it a Window Manager is responsible for managing windows and has an overview of all (toplevel) windows on the system (as a result of being responsible for them) and its placement and setup (e.g. in which monitor it is, what state -minimized, rolled up, maximized, etc- it is, etc). As such, like how it moves windows around, updates its state (minized, rolled, etc) it can also update the window's scale factor.
The main difference here is that the window needs to know how to scale itself, but this isn't that different from knowing how to handle arbitrary sizes when getting resized.
The idea isn't that weird (and honestly Windows does something similar so toolkits that work on Windows would need little change to support the same functionality on X):
1. Applications/toolkits that do not support the protocol will be scaled by the window manager, if possible (via, e.g, composition, note that a window can be composed without composing the full desktop - though there might be some corner cases here that need tweaks on the X server - a full desktop compositor will have no issues here however)
2. Applications/toolkits that do support the protocol but are running under a window manager that doesn't support it will do their scaling themselves by using the appropriate X APIs (RandR provides per-output DPI info that can be scaled, though a toolkit can also have user-wide settings for providing DPI-independent scaling settings per monitor) and geometry notifications
3. Applications/toolkits that do support the protocol and are running under a window manager that does support it (which can be known by a root window attribute and the application can also use a window attribute to specify that the window "speaks" the protocol) will receive scaling events from the window manager. The logic for these scaling values would be up to the window manager (e.g. per-output, per-monitor, per-application scaling but also could be some option in a context menu in the titlebar that provides scaling values and/or have some shortcut keys to scale up/down).
For #3 there could also be a message for the window manager to request scaling for a window so that, e.g. something like xdotool could provide such requests via the command like.
> It is not moving the discussion forward. The rest of your comment has very little in the way of meaningful suggestions that I can parse, you could have edited it down to maybe 4 or 5 sentences and gotten your point across.
Then i suggest making better effort towards understanding what others write or at least ask clarifications (like i did at my first response in this comment) because making the assumption that it doesn't move a discussion forward.
Because it needs special support in the window manager. At that point it is the same as what Wayland is doing except it still has all the other flaws of X11 and it will break when someone wants to disable compositing or use another old window manager. As for the other parts, those would technically work, and it already does work like that for the most part. Most programs that can do DPI scaling do already have a way to scale themselves. But that is not a good experience for users, the point of it working seamlessly is to have support for it built into the window manager.
>Then i suggest making better effort towards understanding what others write or at least ask clarifications
There are no clarifications to ask, you are repeating the same comments that get posted all the time. Keep in mind these are the type of comments that you can see repeated very often:
"I have no problem, it works on my hardware"
"It is not a problem because I personally prefer it this way"
"Just try to fix the problem yourself by tweaking these developer settings (config files, environment variables, etc) and hoping it works"
If your comment follows this pattern then I would say just avoid making that comment, it is not moving the discussion forward. I think you can agree, when building these systems the goal is to get something that is usable out of the box for everyone. So these comments do not "move the needle" towards that, these are just reinforcing the current status quo.
But it also does not rely on Wayland and all the flaws it has - after all my point was about being possible on X11, not about Wayland. Wayland had nothing to do with the post i wrote.
> But that is not a good experience for users, the point of it working seamlessly is to have support for it built into the window manager.
Yes, which is exactly what i wrote in my original message: "Window manager support for some common messages/hints (ala EWMH) so that the window manager is responsible for telling applications how to scale would improve things".
> There are no clarifications to ask, you are repeating the same comments that get posted all the time [...] If your comment follows this pattern then I would say just avoid making that comment
I suggest try to actual read what people are writing instead of trying to pattern match answers to whatever you think the poster is writing. This may also help understand what i write in my other replies about backwards compatibility.
Well my point was that it will always be an inferior experience on X11 even though it technically is possible in some circumstance. WM hints only work correctly if the window manager is compositing which many window managers are not, or do not want to add, and some X11 users still seem to insist on not using them... Any attempts to add this to X11 are fighting an uphill battle.
>I suggest try to actual read what people are writing
I did and I believe those replies are following those patterns. Those comments seem unrelated to the other things about backwards compatibility. It is an entirely separate concern.
Regardless of what you consider "inferior" (again, i do not see anything inferior assuming it is done as i described), the point was that it was possible.
> WM hints only work correctly if the window manager is compositing which many window managers are not, or do not want to add
Compositing is only needed for applications that do not support scaling themselves. There is no compositing necessary for applications that do support scaling, aside from the (literal) edge case of having an application cross two (or more) different monitors of different scale values and wanting to have the same visible area in all of them.
> and some X11 users still seem to insist on not using them...
At the end of the day it is up to users to decide what they want to do with their computers - and deal with pros and cons of their choices, the best developers can do is try to provide options.
If something isn't possible in whatever "perfect" sense one might have, it can still be worth implemented in "good enough" ways. For example i use Window Maker, a window manager without desktop compositing support (aside from a minor use for window thumbnails) the UX of which i like in general despite its flaws in some cases. If i had multiple monitors with mixed DPI, i'd rather stick with WM even if i had to deal with the "window looks too big/small while dragging it between monitors" flaw since i consider the latter a minor issue while switching to a different environment (and all the consequences it may have) a much bigger one.
> I did and I believe those replies are following those patterns. Those comments seem unrelated to the other things about backwards compatibility. It is an entirely separate concern.
Your responses indicate that your beliefs are wrong then. The comment about backwards compatibility are relevant if you are also trying to do that pattern matching against what i write there.
The issue with this thinking is that those cons eventually cascade back to the developer, if you know for a fact users will use an option that is going to break the intended use case. Window Maker is going to be broken or have a sub par experience with the situation you describe, because that only works with applications that support this method. Old legacy applications with no scaling support will still need support from the window manager. So that is a perfect illustration of why that solution is inferior and can never work correctly if you want to take this angle of "I can make whatever choice I want, including the broken ones".
>Your responses indicate that your beliefs are wrong then
I do not think so, your additional writings have drifted further from that subject. I should remind you, this thread is a discussion of GNOME, not Window Maker.
Thinking "for a fact" that users will do something is a perfect way to make several of them unhappy when they want to do something else :-P.
> Window Maker is going to be broken or have a sub par experience with the situation you describe, because that only works with applications that support this method.
Maybe, but as i wrote, the alternative is either not using Window Maker or not having any scaling support, both of which would be way more undesirable for me.
> Old legacy applications with no scaling support will still need support from the window manager.
Sure, like any application with no scaling support in any platform that provides it, will need to support them somehow - this isn't limited to X11.
> So that is a perfect illustration of why that solution is inferior and can never work correctly if you want to take this angle of "I can make whatever choice I want, including the broken ones".
As far as i am concerned, the solution i describe is both superior and works perfectly fine when the alternative is introducing worse issues.
And this is the important bit: what i consider better and superior and what you consider better and superior are not the same thing, hence being able to have the option to set up things in the way each one likes (which of course relies on underlying systems that are modular enough to allow that).
> I do not think so, your additional writings have drifted further from that subject. I should remind you, this thread is a discussion of GNOME, not Window Maker.
I brought up Window Maker as an example that i have personal experience with, it could have also been IceWM or any other window manager without support for desktop composition.
Also FWIW my original reply in this thread wasn't about GNOME specifically either, it was a reply on some issues the original poster had with the Linux desktop environment in general (itself a post not specifically about GNOME too).
My point is those users will be unhappy anyway, they choose to break their own system. There is little reason to try to accommodate them further. The alternative is always going to be don't use that WM or don't have scaling support. It is not superior as you are always faced with this choice. That is the choice you get when you want to use legacy apps and WMs which is the only real reason to still be using X11.
That is a very "i know what is good for the users better than them" stance.
> The alternative is always going to be don't use that WM or don't have scaling support. It is not superior as you are always faced with this choice.
It is (or can be) superior when taking the entirety of the environment into account, not just the particular "scaling vs not scaling" support. It shouldn't really be that hard to understand that someone might prefer to stick with a window manager (or other program) because they like its overall UX despite not having a perfect solution for some particular problem, right?
Depends on the user; I dislike tearing everywhere, including games (distracting when focus is important and hard to notice details when moving). I have never been able to get rid of tearing on Xorg without unacceptable side effects (very uneven framerate, with microfreezes of a few frames when playing with options). This prevented me from using Linux-based desktops as main OS for a long time. (although I could have bought another GPU)
On the latest Fedora with Wayland and up-to-date nvidia drivers, the experience is completely tear-free and I am back to Linux as default boot OS. (still missing VR).
Yes, that was my point that not everyone has the same requirements. This is why i gave my usecase as an example - and of course with details to help others who might be in the same position as me but don't know where to look to help themselves.
> I have never been able to get rid of tearing on Xorg without unacceptable side effects (very uneven framerate, with microfreezes of a few frames when playing with options). This prevented me from using Linux-based desktops as main OS for a long time. (although I could have bought another GPU) [..] up-to-date nvidia drivers, the experience is completely tear-free and I am back to Linux as default boot OS.
At least on my AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT and the open source drivers, i do not have issues. With VRR i even had silky smooth animations (though right now i am using a 60Hz monitor without VRR).
TBH since i was always in the "no-vsync camp", even when i had an Nvidia GPU i always had it disabled in as many places i knew where it can be disabled :-P but IIRC there is an environment variable that is equivalent to vblank_mode (or even that :-P it has been years since i had an Nvidia GPU).
There is nothing really special or weird about Xorg here, vsync isn't rocket science. As long as the application (and desktop compositor, if you use one) uses the proper APIs it should work fine. Assuming there isn't anything broken on the Nvidia side, of course.
Wayland doesn't make it any easier to get fractional scaling, obviously. It's up to the toolkits to support fractional scaling, and while you can magnify a window by like 1.2x under wayland it's going to get blurry, you're essentially just up-scaling an image.
So maybe we'd need some kind of poll to know what all of us collectively need. And I'm sure those who make Gnome (many at RedHat I think) have an idea. So maybe there is some interest, or unfortunate planets alignment that makes "simple" users to be second class citizen. That is, Wayland, VR, tearing are not things that prevent one of completing a professional task so they just don't get fixed...
My point was that I see many area of improvements but none of them prevents me of being happy (I use my Linux DE 80% professional and 20% leisure; or 5% movies and 95% browser/coding). It seems that some of these areas are not on the improvement level for you but on the indispensable one. So as you said, there's some personal appreciation going on. So for me the equation is more like FLOSS quality + licenses >= proprietary quality + license. That is, I value the license difference more than the quality difference; hence I'm pretty happy with many sub standard tools :-)
So now, in your list, the tearing is clearly, for me, the most painful issue at the moment. Watching movies is a bit painful at times.
So in the end, well, ain't sure anything gonna change soon. But the sooner the better, I agree on that :-)
For example, https://lizards.opensuse.org/2011/05/03/vintage/
But that was 20 years ago.
That might be the common retort but according to this opinion piece there's more going on:
https://news.itsfoss.com/wayland-core-protocol-issue/
If you accept that opinion piece then it's more that Wayland doesn't need anything but GNOME. KDE and others have been working hard to function well on Wayland and have made decent progress while still offering new features (like fractional scaling) given that they weren't really a consideration when Wayland started.
In my personal opinion, all those panel and decoration protocols are broken and are needlessly recreating many of the same problems as were present in X11.
IMHO, Gnome just works. There are other parts of the Linux ecosystem that still suck (audio...), but GNOME is IMHO not among them.
It is most likely fixable, but it hasn't bothered me enough to try and figure it out.