Ask HN: What on earth does "start-up" mean these days?

once upon a time a start-up was a company with no employees...

When? (serious question). I've been working in what most people would deem "startups" of various sorts for about 17 years now. But save for one case (a company I started) there was always "employees" and "investments". Just curious when the time was when startup meant only founders and no investors.

Reading through your larger question, I think you are being overly strict in your definition of "startup", especially as it has been used over the last decade.

I've never seen a clear and concise definition pinned on the word, but it is generally taken to mean a company where while their may be some cashflow, they are generally not cashflow positive and the overall risk of failure is still quite high.

I was hoping this would open a debate because from outside the US it just seems like we're missing something especially on the money aspect.

You mentioned that you've always worked with "employees" and "investors", but nobody that ever started a company anywhere from nothing has "investors" from the outset. so either you can only have joined "post investment" which is not really a start-up, or after the company's founders had already created a viable business. Ie you were not working for a start-up.

Let me put it another way; is the US like some fantasy dreamland where money gets given to anyone who starts a company?

In Europe, starting a "start-up" generally means you start from scratch. Sure you' could get loans against your house, but the way the media and to a certain extent HN portrays start-ups as being founded by teenagers and graduates, most will not have this to offer.

That surely is the purpose of seed funding, but seed funding is not enough to start hiring, because it will get you two months down the line at most, and it does not make a viable business.

So again, it's just not clear what is really going on, what are start-ups and whart are real established businesses calling themselves start-ups because its fashionable.

Ie you were not working for a start-up.

Only by what appears to be your unique and limited definition.

I have never heard of anyone that considers "taking money == no longer a startup".

Also, it is not uncommon to startup a company with immediate investment. In fact, some companies don't officially exist until the investment is secured (they are an "idea" during the pitch stage, and the formal legal incorporation paperwork is only filed after securing initial investment).

This is of course all based on common usage of the term in the US, but since you were also referencing US companies this seems appropriate. Much like a "boot" is a piece of footwear here and a part of an automobile there.

You seem to be confirming my point. You seem to be saying that anybody with an idea in the US can get money invested into their business without having to do anything other than produce a business plan, and an idea, if they search hard enough.

Doesn't that sound rather odd? Let me tell you where I'm coming from:

I've started 8 companies in the last 25 years and not one has had external funding. I've built them from scratch and earned every penny, but you seem to be suggesting that money grows on trees.

I don't think this has anything to do with language differences, I think if you've ever started a company you know what it takes, you know the risks, and so do investors. It is not credible that the sort of sums of money that are required to employ people run offices and pay taxes are available without a running busines already in place.

And US or English or not, the fact remains you are no longer starting something at that point in the life cycle of a business. The label therefore is just that - a fashionable label, not a meaningful title.

People use it to mean "a company that can grow very quickly over the coming years". Hence some people pointing to "startups like Facebook and Twitter" but ignoring the recently-opened restaurant.

(Is this what the word should mean? Probably not, but there's no way to change it.)

I've never seen or heard it used like this, and by contrast I have heard it used for a restaurant!

Wikipedia has an entry on the word. "These companies, generally newly created, are in a phase of development and research for markets."

I think that best describes it. Opening a small retail business is not really a startup because there is much more certainty in the business model and market.

Tech startups however, have opportunities to operate in new and undeveloped markets, and obviously technology lets you scale up extremely fast.

The Wikipedia definition may be accurate. It's important to note that it does not say "undeveloped markets." You added that in your head.

"Development and research for markets" -- just markets. That means any market.

Startup is a phase, not a type of business. There's no reason not to consider a brand new restaurant a startup. Except possibly that it did its market research before opening its doors, unlike what most people on HN call a "startup."

Today, startup is everything you want that has something with entrepreneurship.