I wish I could organize my thoughts | Hacker News Reader

I wish I could organize my thoughts

drewdevault.com

96 pointsdjha-skin59 comments

Seems like you could get at least 75% of the way there in a single day using Inkscape as the drawing platform, depending on what else needs to happen with workflow (like scripting to add another page blank, which seems like it's less of an "Inkscape page" and more of a "rectangle I can write on & export as PDF", with the PDF export of a selected area doable as-is but maybe adding a specifically-sized rectangle where you want it is worth scripting) or tablet / writing operations. LO Draw would also be a candidate.

If you want your grid to be even more interesting, integrate Eagle Mode around it (i.e. install and skim the Eagle Mode docs) for harnessing the powerful & more or less universal taxonomy of a filesystem. You'd have multiple levels of zoom & pan workspaces there, since it will preview the PDFs as you zoom to their location.

So, if you want to wait for something to fit the spec to your inner-critic's liking, I guess that's one thing. But if you could get most of the way toward what you want within a day...even though it wouldn't be perfect...would that be worth trying?

There's also a Patreon for Inkscape development IIRC...

It's a lot of money, but for about $1300, a 13" iPad Pro + Apple Pencil + paper-like screen protector + Concepts or Notability or GoodNotes or Muse or even OneNote basically gets you there too. The drawing tools are great, the handwriting recognition is pretty amazing, and it's easy to scan documents or add photos with the device's camera.

With focus modes, you can hide everything else and make the iPad into a dedicated note keeping device.

+1 for goodnotes, I keep track of every paper I've read and research I've done since grad school using the app, you can search, import anything, it's awesome.

No longer an Apple user, but this is making me wonder if I need to get an iPad again. Fuck my life.

Not an apple fan, but I cannot be separated from my iPad (and the pencil) for this particular use case.

Right, you've listed a lot of apps that seem to address this space. I think the biggest factor that eliminates them in DeVault's mind is limited to no Linux support and an iPad obviously isn't running Linux either.

I only mentioned this stuff because he said it should be on Linux, not that it must.

Yeah, sorry, part of my intended point that I don't think entirely came across was not that these software options shouldn't be brought up as possible answers (they should! Thanks) but that it does seem to point to an under-served niche (Linux support) and that would be exactly the sort of under-served niche that would make some of these answers "non-obvious" to someone like DeVault when looking for off-the-shelf solutions. DeVault in fact may be calling for someone to more directly serve this niche (and other comments here touch on that), but yeah if he has a chance some of the options you mentioned are likely worth investigating as current off-the-shelf options.

On desktop Linux, every niche is underserved (with the possible exception of text editors). There's hasn't been much going on in the Linux desktop software world for the past twenty years. It seems like anytime something new comes out that runs on Linux, it's only on Linux because of some cross-platform library and as a result compromises have been made.

> There hasn't been much going on in the Linux desktop software world for the past twenty years.

As a daily user of Linux on the desktop I am totally biased -- but can you provide some examples of this? From my (subjective) perspective, Linux desktop software is pretty active.

However, I totally agree with your point about Linux being an afterthought for a lot of desktop apps and made possible only by tooling comparable to Electron.

Some points I could see:

1. I still can't ditch X-11 for work (because of Zoom[1])

2. My point above about desktop Linux support being an afterthought for most desktop apps

However, I feel like on the other side there is a huge desktop application library that is pretty active.

[1] https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/6634039380877-Shar...

The best platform examples for me are GoodNotes and Procreate. I bought an iPad and Pencil four years ago just to run GoodNotes and when I needed a better drawing app I found Procreate. They are both amazing and should be 10x as expensive as they are.

What's an example of a desktop Linux application that is so good that somebody will setup or buy a Linux machine to run? I don't deny they exist, but it's been almost 15 years since I worked in Linux full time and when I did I mostly used cross-platform software. Off the top of my head, I just can't think of anything. The killer app back then for me was Linux itself mostly because I enjoyed tinkering and configuring and I couldn't afford the machines I really wanted (something from SGI or Sun or Next).

Despite all that, Linux may be the most successful OS out there. It's the foundation for Android and ChromeOS, it powers a bazillion appliances and gadgets. It's basic infrastructure for a lot of what powers everything we do online. But I don't consider any of that to be desktop Linux success stories.

> The best platform examples for me are GoodNotes and Procreate.

These are great examples.

> What's an example of a desktop Linux application that is so good that somebody will setup or buy a Linux machine to run?

This is a tough question as most of the software I use on Linux can be used on MacOS with its ancient FreeBSD userland or Windows with WSL or natively. I feel that often developers who don't treat Linux as an afterthought also make things available for other platforms.

I know for me, I use a Linux machine for the software ecosystem I use to keep things keyboard driven. skhd[1] on MacOS and Autohotkey[2] on Windows can help but when I have tried both it is not quite as flushed out in my opinion. I also use Linux for increased privacy and a more minimal environment compared to MacOS or Windows. I would say those are compelling reasons to use Linux and are directly impacted by software available for Linux. One could also argue the lack of undesirable software (bloatware, adware, etc.) is also a compelling reason to use Linux.

This all being said, I am not one to argue this is the year of the Linux Desktop. I'm a security engineer and the lack of standardization on the desktop side of Linux is a HUGE weakness and until that is addressed I don't think it will ever be the year of the Linux Desktop.

[1] https://github.com/koekeishiya/skhd

[2] https://www.autohotkey.com/

Any recent iPad is compatible with the Pencil (although it depends which gen of the pencil). So you can get all of this for far less money if you go for the cheapest 9 inch

Another option is a Samsung tablet with an s-pen. Some people prefer it to an iPad setup.

(I just got an S7 lite, on sale). I like it a lot so far, but I've only had it for two days so I dont want to comment on using the pen until I've had the tablet for more time.)

I think my ideal environment would be more of a pen-based org mode with good handwriting recognition and editing.

Samsung has good hardware but the software just isn’t there. Of all those programs I mentioned, I think only OneNote is on Android.

Wow, dropping "how" from the actual title really changes what I expected this to be about.

I think there are about five thousand projects that try to do exactly this. Omnigraffle comes to mind, so does OneNote which I hated because I don't want any of this infinite canvas stuff in my note app.

I think it depends on what you're doing. I didn't previously value an infinite canvas until I started working on video games professionally—it's extremely important to be able to just append a new area or objective at a moment's notice with minimal mucking around, especially if you don't know if the idea will even work.

Oh definitely. I spend most of my work time in Illustrator and I love its infinite* canvas, it's great to let my drawings sprawl off the edge of an artboard when they need to and resize the art or the board later, but I never feel a need for it when I'm writing stuff.

* there's a limit but I really never run against it in practice

I think HN automatically removes "How" from the title; I submitted this post[0] whose original source starts with "How", but after submitting, the word "How" disappeared from the the title.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32350462

You can edit it back in, the HN system automatically does this to reduce low-effort click-bait submissions like "How I increased my productivity 100x in 24 hours with these 69 easy steps!"

Unfortunately in this case it (paradoxically) enhanced the click-bait factor immensely. An impressive feat if it was intentional on behalf of the submitter.

@dang, they’re right, that change completely changes the meaning of the headline.

100% agreed, I wasn't expecting a product request post and was a little disappointed, there are endless posts like this and they are uninteresting compared to what I've come to expect from Drew. Was hoping for something more personal and insightful.

C'est la vie, but posting such drivel dilutes his unique brand. Based on what we know about his personality, I suspect he doesn't care whether he wasted our time blasting out app feature complaint articles or not. Plus it is his blog, after all. It's no longer clear what level of consideration he ascribes to our attention.

Calling it drivel is a bit over the top, it’s perfectly fine for you to be uninterested and move on politely.

Compared to what he normally writes, it's drivel.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas kyleee, I'll take them under advisement.

I'm not sure I'd describe that as organizing your thoughts. It sounds like more "give me a way to record everything without organizing it"

The benefit of writing things down is it forces you to organize and clarify.

What would be the benefit of this collection of random musings?

Obsidian is exactly this with a zettelkasten implementation. Instead of treating your notes as a linear thing, you access them like a non-linear database, utilizing filters, tags, a visual graph, and many other plugins. It's very interesting. I've been using it for a year. However, lately I've started to supplement it with paper notebooks as you can't beat pen(cil) and paper for a lot of things.

The Concepts [0] app on an iPad (what I use) could get most of the way there, save for tables and other formatting options. It has an infinite grid and the ability to place/import objects like PDFs and other formats.

[0] https://concepts.app/en/

+1 for concepts

It's extremely flexible and fairly easy to configure. I've moved 90% of my visual notes there.

Same here, but as I've become more reliant on shared documents (Google Docs and Lucidchart) I've been wishing it was possible to bring those in natively.

I was on a very similar trail of thought. Is this what you're looking for? Kinda overly cutesy graphics but I believe all the functionality is there:

https://kinopio.club/

P.S. Then I used it for a few days and realized the platform itself didn't help that much. It's actually the act of writing/thinking that gets the ideas rollin around in my own head, that's the real useful part.

Wow, this exactly how I organize my thoughts, and I've been slowly thinking about the design of this tool too.

I think the most unsolved part is the layout of arrows. I've never used any drawing or flowcharting program that could connect items at the speed of thought. You always spend time fiddling with the pathing of connector lines.

The auto-OCR feature is tricky too. You don't want to waste time clicking the Rect tool to draw a rectangle.

> You don't want to waste time clicking the Rect tool to draw a rectangle

but how long does that really take? maybe it'll be more useful to develop some patience?

also, as we get older, we get slower. I recall watching my dad use a computer with such pause that I found it infuriating. Now (decades later) I find that I now pause sometimes rather than rush because I have so many more things on my mind.

Would love to read your thoughts on this. My note-taking is super messy. Currently using Obsidian and paper notebooks, and to be honest with you, I know it can be done better, I just haven't sat down and thought about it as I assume I'll stumble upon some bright spark who absolutely nails it and is kind enough to share the "how".

I have a radical proposal. How about taking a drawing class which will allow your hand to express your thoughts in a better way and then scan the result? I believe that there is art in note taking and also visual communication and a skilled hand is probably still the best creative medium. Just saying, cause I am thinking of taking drawing classes for a similar reason.

Have you selected your class (online)?

This maybe the killer app of VR/AR.

Another one might be true immersive development and or debugging.

I think the visceral sense of scale and spatial relationship might be a great leap forward in productivity.

I think I'd you could navigate a code base in 3D, we could use that part of brain that's subconsciously really good at directions to increase familiarity more rapidly.

The database schemas are up the stairs to the left, second door. (Or in the cave passed the willow tree, lol)

I've noticed after a few hours in a new games my brain has the map and I have to think less about where I'm going and more about my surroundings.

If we can tie into these "coprocessor" parts of our brain, how easier could hard things like math and engineering become for more people?

Random thiughts but the 1000th note taking app won't bring us closer but VR just might.

Yes, at least to start with. That is, a mapping from familiar physical objects to virtual ones will help a lot of people get started, and in some cases may make them more productive, in the same way that the desktop with manila files became how we thought about GUIs. The challenge is what is the lowest friction metaphor. A house ? A tree? A neighborhood of streets?

Secondly, all metaphors must eventually give way to a new conception of operation to realize the power of the thing. Manila folders don't cut it when you think about symlinks, loopback mounts, serialization, and all the gazillion other ways we use files now. in the metaverse we might start with houses, or plazas, but it can't be where we stop.

I'm so tired of these "infinite canvases" being proposed as solutions for organization without any second thought to how you'd retrieve any information. Minimaps are a possibility, but there are no shortage of ways to get ideas down both linearly and nonlinearly.

I thought the Zettelkasten hype would show more people that when it comes to organization and notetaking we need better ways to get things out than in. And when comes to the idea of "automatically linking" notes and ranking concepts within those notes based on importance or value there's no such thing as "one size fits all." Ideas and innovations in that area, maintenance, search, and surfacing relevant (forgotten) notes are far more interesting problems.

You’ll get something close to what you’re looking for with the Nebo app. Fluid handwriting recognition, diagrams, infinite whiteboard; multi-page PDF import, and decent full text search.

https://www.nebo.app/

(No affiliation)

I would love to see something similar to this, but with math. Something like those flowcharts, drawing on a drawing tablet, and snapping to a grid or something like that. Automatically recognizing square root, division, and othet math symbols. Maybe even some character recognition for drawing the numbers (though text boxes would be nice too).

Math always just seemed like one of those things that should be doable on a computer, but you just can't really do it efficiently without being able to draw numbers, lines, and other stuff all over the place, like you can on paper.

Check out Nebo.app, which has fluid handwriting recognition, including math.

See Jef Raskin's work. "The Humane Interface" and Zooming UIs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface

https://archive.org/details/humaneinterfacen00rask

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooming_user_interface

https://josephernest.github.io/bigpicture.js/index.html

Also "Glamorous Toolkit" https://gtoolkit.com/ an extension of Pharo (Smalltalk).

- - - -

To me the weird thing is that this kind of app has so much overhead to roll out, that it's not e.g. a simple Red script or something ( https://www.red-lang.org/ ), or already just the way your computer works (the Canon Cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat Raskin again.)

Also Jef Raskin's last patent: "Indicating Potential Focus in a User Interface" https://patents.google.com/patent/US10895965B2/en

> I keep a pen & notebook on my desk, which I make liberal use of to jot down my thoughts. It works pretty well: ad-hoc todo lists, notes on problems I’m working on, tables, flowcharts, etc. It has some limitations, though. Sharing anything out of my notebook online is an awful pain in the ass. I can’t draw a straight line to save my life, so tables and flowcharts are a challenge. No edits, either, so lots of crossed-out words and redrawn or rewritten pages. And of course, my handwriting sucks and I can type much more efficiently than I can write. I wish this was a digital medium, but there are not any applications available which can support the note-taking paradigm that I wish I could have. What would that look like?

Forgot the most important and annoying disadvantage of writing in journals: Search. The whole point of writing is that it is a record that you can at some point in the future benefit from. If you can't search, it is nfg. While some people write to better memorize what they're learning (college students), that's not what author is talking about. Inability to swiftly search things is probably the biggest drawback of writing in notebooks.

Treesheets might come close.

https://strlen.com/treesheets/

Kind of seems a bit like Muse, which is an iPad app.

The "nested boards" feature seems especially pertinent.

https://museapp.com/how/nestedboards/

Yes, Muse is exactly designed for this style of working/thinking.

It makes me think of Paper Website[1]. If I were Drew, I would write down all my thoughts on paper. Then, when I wanted to share them, I might use similar tools described in that website to share.

1: https://paperwebsite.com/

This sounds like a pitch for an 80s computer like by Wang or somebody. I think it's really cool how some wild new paradigm for knowledge work might require special (and expensive!) hardware in the 80s, but today any generic PC -- even a $300 rinky-dink HP Stream -- is so absurdly fast and powerful by comparison that all you need to do is code it up.

As it is, I usually just use org-mode for thought organization. When I need to give a presentation to co-workers, I type up some talking points in org-mode and may just spend an hour or two arranging them into a cohesive narrative. I've been praised for presentations I've made this way. Of course presentations aren't the only things I prepare for using org-mode -- I've written entire pieces of software from inside it.

Take a look at ExcaliBrain (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gOkniMkDPyM) which combines Obsidian (markdown-based linked notes tool) and Excalidraw (sketching / whoteboard tool).

Tinderbox (http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/) has a "map" view that functions somewhat like this, with two twists:

1. Notes on the map can be connected to each other via arrows that show relationships 2. Notes can act as containers for other notes, so you're not limited to the 2D plane the author describes -- you can "zoom in" by opening a note and you'll be presented with a map view of that note's contents.

Yup. I've had this exact same idea.

Similar idea that I liked but couldn't fully get into:

http://eaglemode.sourceforge.net/

If you want to program this, qt's graphicsview framework supports just about all of this. It (along with the rest of qt) is excellent.

1. when you have such tool, you will find the need to tweak and improve, or even replace it with a better model. 2. I have tons of such thoughts, that have no time to implement, really. 3. I use my time to programming, and use money to buy food not time. in other words, poor?

I’d recommend Curio app https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32432724

The best way for me to organize my thoughts was to write down and talk about them then removing most of the written notes and executing on the rest, repeat.

The 10x multiplier from subscription to one-time is extremely underpriced for a product of this value, unless that purchase covers minor updates only.

This sounds like Muse https://museapp.com/ for iPad and Mac.

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