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Comment by whatisweb3 | Hacker News Reader

The goal of Tornado Cash has always been privacy. I would tell you to look at the GitHub repo yourself, and you’d see a range of developers contributing to this open source project, and lots of side projects that are influenced by it. The code is one of the most popular and earliest production grade zk-SNARK circuits built with Circom that targets the EVM - the cryptography employed was very high quality and helping to push privacy forward in the blockchain space.

But alas, the code and any research knowledge it provided has been removed to comply with this deeply unethical move by the US.

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Yes, privacy to help hide your coins acquired through dubious means, we know that. That some researchers got suckered into it thinking that it serves a higher purpose is regrettable, but tornado has always been about laundering money.

Despite what you're attempting to lie about, the tornadocash code is not illegal. Feel free to repost it on any host that does not work with the US (or that isn't as trigger happy as github). The Tornado Cash organization has been blacklisted. The cryptography that runs it hasn't been made illegal.

> Feel free to repost it on any host that does not work with the US

An obvious place to post this code and protocol would be on Ethereum, which is censorship resistant. This is what the original developers of TC have done, and the result is a contract that becomes immutable and accessible, and is now the target of the sanction.

But I will not do that, as that would put me at risk of 30 years of jail time.

I will also not post the code on Gitlab or another service, as the repercussions can be severe. Whether it is just my Gitlab account being deleted, or whether it is more significant like the US government investigating me, I do not want to put myself in that situation.

However since you are the one saying there is no problem at all with it, I wonder if you would like to do that for us?

> Yes, privacy to help hide your coins acquired through dubious means, we know that.

It is sad that you default to assuming criminal behavior. The same argument is being made today by politicians and governments to try to add back doors to E2EE chat protocols and cryptographic signature schemes.

>However since you are the one saying there is no problem at all with it, I wonder if you would like to do that for us?

Unfortunately, most of the services I use comply with US law and would therefore be likely to remove the repository immediately. As a second, very unfortunate point, I don't give a shit about reposting a service whose primary purpose is money laundering. Very sorry about that. Maybe researchers could have thought for a second before putting all their efforts on what is widely known as a mixer made for money laundering.

>It is sad that you default to assuming criminal behavior.

My dude. 20% of the transactions going through Tornado Cash were for money laundering. The 80 other percent literally only serve the purpose of hiding the trails. If TC was used 100% for money laundering, everyone would still know that everything coming out is still illegal money. Having "legitimate" transactions going through (whether from privacy conscious users, or people sending legal money though to blur tracks) is a feature of every money laundering service.

My dude. It is not illegal to seek privacy on the internet, privacy is not a crime.

Matrix, Tor, PGP, these are all beneficial tools for the world, used by people that are not criminals. These are also widely known as tools used by criminals.

It is indeed, not illegal to seek privacy on the internet. It's not illegal in real life either! However, if you end up seeking shelter in a known mobster joint, maybe don't be so surprised when it gets closed down, you get kicked out and you're considered suspcious for a while.

lol. the same argument is being used by politicians to try and stifle development of Tor and E2EE chat apps - "only criminals need to use these privacy tools."

Zzzzz. You're not interested in accepting that you can be wrong, and conflate whole ecosystems with products in an attempt to blur the lines and sell your precious Web 3 future.

Banning Tor as a whole is stupid, because it's not meant to be only used for that, and is a protocol. However, putting anyone who regularly posts on overthrowthegovernment.onion on a watch list is reasonable (even if they only posted pictures of kittens), as well as is closing the website, as much as possible, since it causes a net harm on society as a whole.

Banning E2EE as a whole is stupid, because it's not meant to be only used for that, and is a protocol. However, raiding the office of the man that hosts the "Bring The 4th Reich" chatroom is reasonable, as well as closing it and keeping a close eye on anyone who participated is also reasonable (even if they only posted pictures of kittens), since it causes a net harm on society as a whole

Banning cryptocurrencies as a whole is stupid, because it's not meant to be only used for that, and is a (bunch of) protocol(s). However, sanctioning the service that is mostly used to launder money (which comes from criminal activities) named tornado.cash is reasonable, as well as keeping an eye on everyone that participated (even if they only wanted to hide their transactions) since it causes a net harm on society as a whole.

Welcome to the real world, where going to the seedy place where at least 1/5th of the people in there are engaging in criminal activities might get you in trouble. Feel free to look for a mixer that does a little bit of research on the source of the funds before taking them in. You are not entitled to privacy if your actions may cause harm or contribute to causing harm on society.

your argument rests on the axiom that tornado cash protocol is only being used for illegal money laundering, which is not supported by the evidence - this line of thinking is directly comparable to the claim that the Tor protocol is only used by criminals. sad that you are unable to make this connection.

> your argument rests on the axiom that tornado cash protocol is only being used for illegal money laundering, which is not supported by the evidence

If it was only being used for money laundering, it wouldn't actually be laundering. To launder money you need to mix up your illegal funds with a larger pool of legal funds to give some plausible deniability to whether your funds are legal or not.

Not sure if that is correct. If 100% of funds entering a mixer were from many different exploits, it would still be laundering and obscuring the source of funds from illegal activity. It would no longer be clear which wallets are associated with which hacks.

Still money laundering, just not with clean money on the other side.

Lmao no. The whole point of a launderer is that you can't know if it's clean money or not. You _need_ a stream of clean money to hide your dirty cash in. Otherwise you just have a firehose of dirty money.

In this hypothetical scenario, it would all be dirty, but you would have no way to pinpoint which funds are associated with which illicit activity. At this point it becomes hard to levy any specific charges: "you are hereby charged with either breaking into a $100M bank vault, or fleecing grandma for $10, but we aren't sure which exactly."

In practical terms it might not matter, the funds would just be frozen. But it is still a form of money laundering that obscures the true source of the funds.

I'm pretty sure that money laundering exists to hide an illegal source of money, not to put a flashing siren on your head and dare prosecutors to figure out what you did.

Which privacy tools are not "mobster joints"?

When lack of privacy becomes the default, everybody with a sense of privacy becomes suspicious.

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