Essential Climbing Knots | Hacker News Reader

Essential Climbing Knots

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211 pointsbryanrasmussen145 comments

The Ashley Book of Knots became public domain a few years ago (70 years after Ashley died) and you should absolutely read it or at least skim it here:

https://archive.org/details/TheAshleyBookOfKnots

This would have been sooner had Disney not robbed us of our own culture by purchasing whatever legislation they feel benefits them, regardless of the cost to the rest of us.

Sorry, I'm bitter, but it really is a fantastic book I wish more people could've read and expanded on sooner... Say, 50 years after Ashley died instead of 70.

It really is an amazing book - exhaustive and technical, but there's a lot of personality in the descriptions and commentary.

A personal favorite quote:

> The topsail halyard bend is said to be a yachting hitch, but it is possible that it has never appeared outside the covers of a book. It has one more turn than the studding-sail bend and this, like the second tablespoonful of castor oil, savors of redundancy.

If there is one knot the average HNer should know out of all of Ashley's, it's Ashley's Stopper Knot:

https://www.animatedknots.com/ashley-stopper-knot

Perfect to make sure your Facebook ... err.. Meta approved hoodie's pull strings don't unpull.

I've had the Ashley Book of Knots for a long time. It's great. According to the book, Ashley was one of the last people to actually work on a traditional square rigged sailing ship. In the book I learned that the ship's carpenter early on a voyage would have all the sailors bring their pocket knives to him so that he could snap the points off the blades in order to make them less dangerous during disputes on the ship. The book is full of interesting passages like this.

The book provides an encyclopedic coverage of knots and ropes; I highly recommend it to those curious about knot. There is one downside to the book, there are a number of new knots that were first described after the book was written, and some of these are worth knowing, for example the Zeppelin bend or the Simple Simon Under knot, see [1] and [2].

If someone wanted to know how to tie just one knot for possible use in an emergency, the first one covered in the featured article is a good one. The article calls it the Trace Figure Eight knot. Other sources call it the a figure-eight loop or figure-eight follow through loop. It's strong and reliable, and it's easy to learn and remember. (Its downside is that it can jam quite tight and become hard to untie.) There is also a variation of this knot for tying two similar ropes together. Bends are the category of knots for tying two ropes or lines together so this knot is known as the figure-eight bend. See [3] and [4]. Naturally, exercise care before trusting your life to a knot and consult with experts before doing so; I've seen a lot of foolish knots.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_bend

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Simon_under

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure-eight_loop

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_bend

Random comment: Securing the trace eight with a second knot is really not necessary, as it is a self tightening knot. Most climbers don't do it, my climbing safety book doesn't show it and all gyms I've been too, sans one in Vancouver WA for some reason, don't require it. Rough rule is two fists length for the tail and you're good.

Another comment mentioned this too, it's much easier to untie if tied in a specific way and if you do lead climbing they usually show you the technique. You can also do it with a Yosemite finish for a similar improvement.

stupid question from a sailor: how does a trace eight differ from a standard figure of eight?

It's a loop knot made using a figure-8, then retracing the knot with the tail. Climbers use it where sailors would tend to use a bowline. I've heard various reasons why: "it's easier to teach people in the gym", "it's harder to get wrong", "the dynamic ropes climbers use put bowlines at risk of capsizing".

The reasons are all correct; in addition:

1. It's very easy to visually check (five pairs of parallel lines) (by easy I don't just mean reliably, I also mean low effort, which is important because you do it a lot - point fingers at the pairs of parallel lines: "two four six eight ten"). It's very symmetric. If done wrong it tends to look radically different.

2. It requires pulling in 2 places in different directions to come undone. The bowline opens if you pull in 1 bad spot.

(3. In the gym, you can just leave the normal figure eight on the rope, which saves the next climber a bit of time. Not a lot, but it's a nice feature.)

I've been sailing since I was seven years old, and I still have to think when I'm tying a bowline. So I can believe the comment about it being easier to teach.

My understanding why bowlines are disliked in climbing community is that it may fail if the pull does not come from the long tail, but from inside the loop. That is, cliiping two carabiners to bowline loop and pulling the carabiners apart is not a safe way to use bowline.

Nobody does a bowline, that's insane because you can't ring-load (cross-load) it. [0]

Europeans sometimes do the double bowline (traced), but the naming is ambiguous in english, so you have to google double bowline on a bight.

Americans used to do yosemite bowlines, but that fell out of fashion because figure eight (safe and foolproof) and double bowline (safe, trivial to untie after hefty lead falls) cover literally every use case perfectly.

[0]: https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blog/cross-loading-on-knots

A bowline with stopper is a pretty common climbing knot in the UK [0]. I don't have the expertise to weigh into any debates about how safe it is, but I've seen a lot of people use it without incident, and there's no question it's easier to untie than a rethreaded figure-eight.

[0] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_tie_in_to_...

Also, Adam Ondra routinely climbs using this tie-in method for the reasons you mention.

The yosemite variant is fine, but maybe we shouldn't take the world's best climber as a reference who has a lot more context and experience to make very measured tradeoffs:

> IMPORTANT: This knot is methodically NOT recommended and yes, it MAY untie while you are climbing. It can happen if your rope is new-ish (and that means it slides easily) and if you don’t tighten the knot with a lot of force. I am always splashing chalk on the knot in case of new rope to increase the friction and I do tighten it with a lot of force. The reasonable and recommended alternative, pretty common and very safe is double bowline. It is almost as big as eight, but at least it is always easy to untie.

https://adamondra.com/updates/my-climbing-more-about-feeling...

I've been using a double bowline with the Yosemite-style stopper for a long time (I've also heard it referred to a Jack's bend, but I can't find anything quickly to confirm that). Some people give me a hard time about using a double bowline, saying it is "unsafe," but their reason usually boils down to "it's hard to visually inspect." My belay partners (very small list, because I don't let just anyone belay me on lead) typically remind me to re-check my knot just before I leave the ground.

It's generally agreed that it is totally safe (it solves the crossloading issue). I think we can all stick with the proven safe knots that we are comfortable with, and the fact it makes partner check a bit trickier applies also to the double bowline on a bight. I'm equally happy to triple-check myself and make it clear to my belayers that they are off the hook there.

Here is my pitch for "doppelter bulin" (double bowline on a bight):

Even if by some miracle the ENTIRE retraced half of that knot came undone, you would STILL be tied in with a normal bowline. I do a stopper knot too, but I think that illustrates just how bomber it is. And I only use it for single pitches for lead falls, on multipitches I still simply do a figure 8, because why get fancy?

The trace eight goes "back" into itself, leaving a loop at the end. When making the knot, you make it so that the loop goes through your climbing harness, like this: https://wildsummits.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/knot-cover...

While the eight you use for sailing is mostly a stop knot at the end of the rope. So two very different uses.

The only real difference is the trace version you can tie into an existing loop where with the bight version you need a carabiner to connect in. Every time I've done climbing or repelling we've just used carabiners instead of tying directly into the rope.

I don't think theres any difference in the final knot - its how you tie it. Tying a figure of eight in the rope and then re-tracing it back is necessary because your harness loops (not shown in the pic) will be in the bight. I'm guessing a sailor wouldn't need to tie anything into the bight, so retracing wouldn't be necessary.

I've never heard of a fig-eight being referred to as "trace" but this may be an US-ism and I'm European.

You can tie a trace 8 directly into an existing loop like your climbing harness where an 8 on a bight needs a carabiner. Most people would just use a carabiner anyways though.

The more correct term would probably be a figure 8 on a bight. But since climbing harnesses have permanently sewn loops to tie into you can't actually tie it on a bight. You retrace the knot. Otherwise it's a standard figure 8 knot with a loop coming out one end.

I recall being taught it just so the rope doesn't hang around, get caught on things and bother you.

Same - it's not really functional as much as that it keeps the end from being annoying. The alternative is doing a yosemite finish, which a number of my friends prefer.

This is exactly right. It can be especially useful when lead climbing, as it eliminates the risk of accidentally grabbing the tail. Grabbing the tail is unlikely to result in safety risks (unless you have an obscene amount of it), but the less time you have to spend fumbling with your rope while lead climbing, the better.

Indeen! I've been taught that securing the trace eight could be dangerous when, in case of emergency, another rope is (supposedly) attached to the trace eight, but accidentally attached between the trace eight and the securing knot.

Same if you're lead climbing, there is a small chance (if you left a longish tail end) to clip the wrong part of the rope. If if it does not directly result in a dangerous fall you might trap yourself inside a quickdraw.

I was taught that the 2nd knot just provides quick visual proof that the tail is long enough to not pull through under load.

Yes, exactly. It's a test rather than a functional feature. It's useful in a group context for visually checking safety. However, it can be less safe for shorter people and children, especially on a thick, worn rope - it can end up as a solid block which accelerates rapidly to face height during a fall.

This is really regional. In some countries most people use the second knot, in others most don't. E.g. I've rarely seen it used in the US, but it's standard practice in much of europe.

Whichever you do, if you do it different to the majority view for the region you can often end up with some heavily-opinionated person coming up and telling you that you're doing it wrong so I mostly switch depending on where I am. It's easier than trying to explain that [whichever way] is fine and common practice elsewhere.

Funny. Had to do it in a Boston gym, never saw it anywhere in Europe.

I'm UK-based - was taught to tie the 2nd knot every time, and always do. Does seem to be regional.

in the american northeast, backup knots on a figure 8 are relatively common in gyms and rare at the crag. (and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector)

About 5-6 years ago the gyms became much more honest in their instruction for new climbers, and will now actually say the quiet part out loud, which is that a backup knot is really there to 1. ensure that new climbers leave enough of a tail on the figure 8 and 2. are a way to prevent that probably extremely conservative tail from whacking you in the balls when you take a whipper.

sport gyms absolutely do not like people who insist on tying in with a bowline.

Ive also always been in the the camp that this "backup" knot isn't backing up anything. If you want to finish the knot, the correct way to do it would be a Yosemite finish.

Yep, that works well.

The balancing act the gyms, in particular, are trying to play is that knots should be both secure and easily verifiable on sight by gym staff, more or less entirely for liability reasons. A yosemite finish, or a bowline, are both dead-ass safe and in some cases better than a traced eight, but they're harder to glance at and know they're safe. That's totally fine at the crag, but it's a liability issue at the gym.

I would never trust my safety to a bowline. It comes loose with a minimum of working. Only under constant load would I use it, and only then when double hitched, and probably with a finisher clove hitch.

Even my dog gets away from a bowline with a minimum of moving around the front yard.

I rarely see people tying in with a single bowline, for the reason you give. I've been using a double bowline with a stopper knot (http://www.vdiffclimbing.com/double-bowline/) for many years now (well, at least outside of the climbing gym). I've never had an issue with the knot loosening when not under load. The usual complaint I hear from people about using it to tie-in is that it is harder for your partner to visually verify. The figure-8 follow-through is very easy to visually check.

ETA: The last person I saw tie-in with a single bowline was Christian Griffith (of Verve fame) using it to tie-back in after cleaning the anchors of a warm-up in the Ruckman Cave at Rifle Mountain Park. He also didn't secure the rope whe he untied to thread the anchors, choosing instead to just step on it. Not exactly a great example of anchor safety...

Yep, that double bowline with stopper is what I was referring to. Trouble is, it is now almost as challenging to tie as the fig-8 loop / trace.

a usual reason to use it outdoors is that it’s easier to untie than a figure 8 when the rope is dirty or frozen or you were whipping on it for hours.

yes, sorry: i absolutely meant double bowline there. Sloppy.

and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector

Huh, really? Most of the people I know who tie-in with the figure-8 use the standard overhand safety knot (or they pull the tail back through the bottom loop of the eight). Most of us have been climbing for decades. I guess old habits die hard?

they do.

maybe excessively long tails are a better sign…

If you clean a figure 8 really well, it's just as easy to untie after a whip as a bowline (okay, maybe not just as easy, but very close), and much much more universal for your partner to inspect.

The process I follow to ensure a clean knot every time:

1. Tie your figure 8, with the tail the same size every time (use your body as a ruler, testing a few lengths to get the perfect size)

2. Pass the tail up through your hard points so the knot is only a few inches from the bottom hard point.

3. Orient your knot so the tail is coming out of the bottom right side

4. This is the most important step! Instead of passing the tail through the inside of the knot when starting the followthrough, pass it in between the tail strand and the bottom right of the knot.

5. Follow through as normal. It should come out almost clean (eg no need to flip strands over each other)

6. For all 4 combos of top and bottom strand, yank them to make the knot very tight. The tighter and cleaner it is, the easier to untie after a whip.

7. If you do this all, the load strand will be on top, so no difficult flipped strands after a whip!

This is just my process, what's most important is doing something that works for you and that you can get right every time.

I just learned this from watching Hard is Easy on YouTube. And I've been climbing for 10 years!

I originally just stumbled upon it myself (when I first started I was reading a lot of topology books), but that video was great for showing the load strand effect! Felt great to have stumbled into the "right" way by accident

Don't tie a prussick that way. Do exactly what they say, but pull a loop so that the knot is not out on the load bearing part, but instead tucked by the main line.

Otherwise it'll snag and cut itself or catch your carabiner and cause all kinds of shock loads. (source is search and rescue training)

Ashley's is a great ref, but there's tricks to the trades so check a variety of sources.

Hmm. A few thoughts.

There are alternatives to the Prussik such as the Klemheist which don't jam as badly.

I wouldn't use a ring bend - the double fisherman's is superior for tying rope or cord ends together to create a sling. And I definitely wouldn't use either a ring bend or a double fisherman's to link ropes for abseil. An overhand tied in both ropes (with a 50cm tail) -aka the EDK or European Death Knot is way superior, as the body of the knot sits to one side of the line of the tightened rope, so it tends not to catch in cracks.

Finally, extending slings by linking them over and under into a reef knot is stronger than a girth hitch.

Fair point re: the Klemheist although the Prussik serves well enough.

For my part I wouldn't use a figure 8 in a bight to get a loop in the middle of a lonf rope that's going to take load - the butterfly knot is far superior.

> the butterfly knot is far superior

came here to say

What makes it superior? Is it easier to adjust or untie?

It's easier to untie. Has a cool method of tying. When a loop is loaded the knot becomes a bend. The alpine butterfly forms a secure bend, while the flat figure 8 can capsize at low loads.

I would use either for a directional load, but only an alpine butterfly if loading the loop is conceivable. And using the flat 8 as a bend is suicidal.

[1] http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html [2] https://www.animatedknots.com/alpine-butterfly-bend-knot [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offset_figure-eight_bend

Can you please elaborate as to why it is superior?

Apologies for late reply, busy day - I'm happy to throw in with the dot points made by roessland on this.

I'm a bit confused though, I thought you were referring to a figure 8 on a bight which is often used when cleaning an anchor while roessland seems to talk about using a figure 8 to join two ropes (not tying it on a bight).

IIRC the 8 on a bight is best for load parallel to the rope, and the butterfly best for load perpendicular to the rope. The butterfly is really fun to tie though :)

Was also surprised not seeing the EDK for abseiling. Perhaps it's a cultural thing?

From the time of your reply I assume you're also in Europe or at least not in the Americas. You are spot on in your guess. Colleagues and friends over the pond don't use the EDK for abseiling or rappelling as they say.

Also, not sure how the name was picked-up, but that's just plain bad marketing putting Death in the name :)

The etymology behind the name isn't known, it is thought that the name is from Americans. FWIW, it is a bend. While all bends are knots, not all knots are bends. So the EDK name really leaves a lot to wish for.

And then there's the BFK! Which is an EDK on a basically double bight. My knot for choice when TRS'ing.

Everyone I've run into here(Colorado) with more than ~2 years of climbing experience uses the EDK for tying two ropes together for rappelling. Maybe it doesn't come up in conversation as commonly since we typically use single ropes(as opposed to half ropes that you see a lot in the UK).

> Also, not sure how the name was picked-up

(Big caveat: this all depends on joining nylon ropes of similar diameters. Different diameters and UHMWPE cord has different rules)

My understanding is that the American's picked it up from the Europeans in the 90's, but then mixed up with the figure-8 knot which is the actual death knot. Some guy on the internet did some tests, and the figure 8 will roll and capsize at about 1-2 kN. Rappel loads are usually a bit under 1 kN, but if you hit enough snags, it could come out and there was a bunch of accidents resulting from that.

The overhand knot, when tied normally will role at about 3-4 kN which is well above a normal amount of force in a rappel. Also, it tightens as it rolls, so with enough tail, you'll be dead from something else before it could be a concern.

Incidentally, the double fisherman has a bad habit of getting stuck, so if you're doing multiple rappels, especially in icy conditions, or in sticky/jagged rocks, it presents a whole different safety problem.

Edit: source https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

> I wouldn't use a ring bend - the double fisherman's is superior for tying rope or cord ends together to create a sling.

Broadly agree, but a ring bend is handy for tying lengths of tape in to slings. Pretty niche these days though given the ubiquity of sewn slings.

Agreed.

If anyone is curious, I recommend reading https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/rappel-knots-1 (it has helpful illustrations on why the EDK doesn't catch)

And I'd also opt for a Kleimheist or Autoblock over the classic Prusik.

Not sure if I think this was a good selection of essential climbing knots and the presentation was odd. For instance, I'd present the Prusik in an abseiling context. The article mentions using a Prusik to ascend their rope when they've fallen off an overhang, and I have yet to see that. What I see routinely is someone using a Prusik of some sort as a backup when abseiling.

If all of this sparked the curiosity of someone I recommend VDiffClimbing for further information https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/abseil/

But don't go climbing outdoors if you don't have someone that is experienced to go along with you. Take a course or several. It is possible to learn on your own, but it is a high-risk activity to figure these things out as you go on your own. Accidents, even fatal ones, happen to people that know what they are doing.

Props for the Andy Kirkpatrick link. He’s a no-nonsense guy with a ton of experience.

I carry a couple of prussik loops primarily for abseil backup, but have also used it to recover from a fall off an overhang when seconding. The leader was far enough away they couldn't hear me asking to be lowered. I also couldn't reach the rock so had to ascend the rope. Prussik gets the job done.

Used the klemheist when I did rapelling to lock the break if I took my hands of the break. Preferred it over the Prussik as it bite better to the rope when under load because it twisted around it, and did release easily when the load was removed. It also was easy to slide along the rope.

Don't tie the clove hitch one-handed when working with auto-breaking belay device, that caused fatalities. Use both hands to tie the full knot first, and then clip it in at once:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9np7B1Zao4

some of those failure modes when i first saw them were freaky, they were so insidious and easy to do by accident! really glad i came across them, and thanks for sharing!

Worth noting there is a good way for one-handed clove hitch in the air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8qSoIY6FPc

With some practice it's very effective, fast and don't require to watch at the rope.

It is interesting to note how Climbing and Sailing use different knots because each sport has different priorities or different threat models.

When it comes to knot strength (how much the knot reduces the rope's breaking strength), they are quite similar, both sports seek strong knots after all both sports can apply quite strong forces on the rope, so better not to weaken it.

But when it comes to knot security (how easily the knot fails to hold) they go to very different strategies. Sailing knots mostly seek a balance between good-enough security and practicality, mostly knots that one can still easily undo even after it was tightened by a very strong load on the rope. While climbing knots seek top security above all, even if they can be a pain in the ass sometimes to undo.

gyms only force the figure height because people are less likely to screw it up and it's easy to check for far away if it was done correctly

Outside climbers and rope-access often use other alternatives like the figure-nine or double bowline that are easier to untie

Girth Hitch is also known as a Cow Hitch or Lark's Head. This combined with a simple half-hitch to lock it in place is the most useful knot in the world imho.

Don't use a double fisherman or water knot unless you're okay with cutting the rope afterwards to untie it (if you've jammed it or gotten it wet).

Tying a back-up knot into your trace-eight isn't necessary, but people have died from not having one (when they screwed up the eight), and it doesn't take long to do.

Alpine butterfly is a very useful knot for tying into the middle of a line. You'll use it more in life than in climbing.

A Hasty Harness or Swiss Seat is an easy way of tying someone into a rope or webbing if a harness breaks or is missing and you need to rappel or haul a person.

That's what I did during lockdown - got a knot book, taught myself twenty knots. A manager noticed and dared me to tie them blindfold. Did so, and won myself a metre of licorish!

Which you proceeded to tie into a knot, I presume

Alas no, it was quite a wide ribbon and the licorice didn't quite have the strength. Tasted good though.

Water knot [1] might have worked.

[1] https://www.animatedknots.com/water-knot

Figure 8 knot is not that hard to untie after a fall, you just have to tie it in a particular way [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAr-uHd8h8o

This is a great video. A summary for those who don't want to wade through it:

The main message is that if the knot is slightly loose, or messy, the strands pinch unevenly in a fall, and it can be really hard to untie (depending on the rope). Most of the video is experiments to show that. The knot only had to be slightly loose to cause problems.

The part that surprised me is that there are two different ways to tie the knot that basically look the same. They only differ in which of the two outgoing strands is the one that's loaded. They're both perfectly safe, but one can be a lot harder to untie than the other after a fall. I actually find it hard to end up with the "wrong" version of the knot, but I might just be lucky with what my muscle memory has latched on to. I certainly wasn't taught to watch out for the difference.

The difference between the two knots is shown at 13m 24s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAr-uHd8h8o#t=13m24s

His demo of one way to get the knot the right way around is at 7m 41s of another long video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJkCaUUhqgs#t=7m41s

Is there a good knot resource that helps you start from "I need to..."?

e.g. "I need to make a loop that doesn't slip." "I need to tie two ropes of different widths together." etc.

I know most knot books and sites do tell you the purpose of a knot, but I often find their organization doesn't easily lead me to the answer.

The book I learned from suggested five types of knots for different problems and suggested learning one of type, which I found to be a great starting point.

The five were: a stopper knot, to keep a line from pulling through something, a fixed loop, a running loop, a hitch (attach a line to a thing), and a bend (attach a rope to a rope).

My go-to knots were a figure 8, bowline, running bowline, clove hitch, and sheet bend respectively.

The closest thing I've found to what you're asking for is "The Complete Book of Knots" by Geoffrey Budworth which is generally organized into sections related to typical activities such as sailing, general outdoors, and home use. It's not nearly as comprehensive as Ashley's Book of Knots, but in brevity there is power in helping to find the right knot for the right purpose without being overwhelming.

When I was a Boy Scout we would compete on knot tying speed. My favorite was two people take opposite ends of a rope and tie a bowline around your waist. The first one done would then run, and try to capture their opponent's wrist in the loop mid-tie.

For folks who are interested in tying knots for bondage purposes, I can recommend http://www.crash-restraint.com

I know that I'm highly unlikely to use any of these but I like to believe I will and I need to know. Recently, Knots3D[1] was on Hackernews Homepage and I bought the app.

Now, while I'm waiting for something, and am not reading; instead of Twitter or other scrolling apps, I just watch the knots!

One day, any day, at some fateful party with friends, we may need to tie a knot, any knot, and I'm going to pick up one from my mind palace.

1. https://knots3d.com

A bowline and trucker's hitch is something useful in everyday situations. Like tying something down in a truck bed or to the top of a car (moving a mattress, etc.). People don't realize you can pull a line very, very tight and get a ton of grip but you need the mechanical advantage of a trucker's hitch type of knot and tension system. They're both extremely useful when camping too.

Reminds me of this video: https://youtu.be/tK-UebImvwA?t=335

Watching is unlikely to help. I tell scouts to practice them before bed and then practice them in bed after the lights are out.

Tieing them in the dark gives you practice on how the rope feels, the relationship of your hands, and how a well tied one feels.

A few of these kids have had to tie knots while assembling a tent in driving rain, lashing to a tree, tying them over their heads, etc (most of course have not!). Or tied something to car before highway driving. This is how they have the skill and confidence to do it right.

You only need a handful of knots and hitches as your go-to knots that will help you in 99.9% of situations you will encounter. You might as well learn them: they are some of humanity’s oldest inventions.

Plus the math can be fun.

I'll have to remember the "tie them in bed" thing. I tell scouts that their basic knots should be known "cold, wet, and blind" for the same reasons.

If we're doing knot relays, I'll also have them do it with gloves, or eyes closed, or tie the knot behind their back. Also gives a great sense of accomplishment when they finish.

I used to have a piece of string on my desk as a type of fiddle toy. Much quicker to learn knots by tying them than trying to memorize the instructions.

> One day, any day, at some fateful party with friends, we may need to tie a knot, any knot, and I'm going to pick up one from my mind palace.

A somewhat feasible scenario if you make friends with a certain type of interest, go to parties with a certain type of theme, and diligently study knots like the Somerville Bowline.

(There is, perhaps unsurprisingly, a good deal of overlap in the rope skills and gear required for mountain climbing and, well, the other type of hobby where one suspends bodies from a rope.)

I have a 3m piece of 550 next to my desk. I use that to practice knots while in meetings (that I'm not participating directly in) or pondering a challenging problem.

Climbers like to get way into the weeds on knots (“but if this one is loaded with a wet dyneema sling around a deciduous tree…”), so I thought this article was admirably restrained, and does a good job explaining why you’d use each. I’d personally say that a figure eight and overhand are necessary, followed by the clove hitch and prusik. The double fisherman is mostly useful for soloing what you just abseiled after your rope gets stuck. ;-)

No love for the Alpine Butterfly?

Was looking for this comment.

Super easy to tie (on a bight). Can be loaded in any direction. And then easy to untie.

I love the alpine butterfly. It also helps improve the security and strength of a trucker's hitch compared to the usual slipped overhand knot loop which can be handy occasionally with heavy loads!

That first knot needs a short video I think, no idea how to do it from the steps.

This website has useful step-by-steps for every knot you could imagine … https://www.animatedknots.com/figure-8-follow-through-loop-k...

It's the first knot you learn at any rope climbing gym and they will make sure you know it before they let you on the wall.

Essential sailing knots: https://www.discoverboating.com/resources/boating-knots

It's missing European Death Knot.

https://www.theclimbingguy.com/european-death-knot/

There was an article on HN a while back about a particular way of tying a rope to two pins at the top of a cliff in sort of a y-shape that doubles the stresses on the rope rather than reduces it (apologies if the details are wrong - I don't climb). I wish I could find the article.

Can't search properly in mobile but it's probably related to the "american death triangle", isn't it?

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/a-closer-look-at-the-americ...

That's the one. Glad to see all the mis-tying isn't just blamed on Europeans :-)

I remember reading it before led me down this page of climbing mishaps (linked at bottom of page): https://www.climbing.com/skills/climbing-anchor-death-americ...

Pretty comprehensive. One thing to point out is that girth hitching slings (like they show in the girth hitch image) or other material together will eventually wear through so don't do this on a long term basis [1] but only for short term use like extending a sling.

[1] https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/

These are decent for climbing, but for the rest of life you also want the bowline, which is easy to untie after being loaded.

Ring bend should only really be used for webbing.

I would add the alpine butterfly to haul stuff up or isolate/exclude compromised parts of the rope temporarily until you get to safety.

alpine butterfly is by far the knot I use the most.

Definitely, it’s such a satisfying knot to tie too. And after that perhaps the figure 8 on 2 bights (bunny ears).

But then we are into the weeds…

Preferably a bowline with a stopper knot or a inherently secure bowline like the End Bound Single Bowline (EBSB) or Scott's Locked Bowline

These seem to be more complicated versions of the Yosemite Bowline; do you have any info on that one? It’s been my go-to bowline for all applications (climbing, sailing), yet now I’m wondering whether it has some weakness I don’t know about.

I think the only weakness with Yosemite bowline is if tied wrong. Bowline backed by a double overhand is about as fast to tie and easier to check IMO, but if you are used to Yosemite then maybe it's the opposite for you.

Google "paci knots pdf", it raises two issues and demonstrate the potentially fatal one

Mandatory link when talking about knots: https://knots3d.com/

A one-handed prusik is a very useful skill to have too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM9NVe-MdTQ It's the kind of thing you hope you don't have to use because something has probably gone very wrong when you really need it.

For a faster way to tie the figure-eight knot, use the ninja method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJkCaUUhqgs

Really random but one time i was at a training with this older women, & she refused to use the figure 8 knot in favor of the bowline knot :) I thought it was very funny

I did a lot of bouldering and wanted to start doing lead climbing, until I learned that there's no independent certification for ropes.

And the problem of that is ... ?

Generally without independent testing and certification on a safety critical item, you get a market where there are some well established companies who products unquestionably meet the safety standards. These tend to become rather expensive products, but what many experienced people use, because it is definitely safe.

There will be some really cheap stuff sold that absolutely does not meet the safety standards, and nobody with much common sense will trust or use these products.

But then you get reasonable priced items from no-name brands that might meet the specs, but nobody really knows, for all they can tell they might just just be unsafe junk just like the cheap stuff.

Since your life may quite literally depend on whether the product meets the safety specifications, is it worth going for the sanely priced stuff, not knowing if it is really safe, or pay for the overpriced stuff everybody knows is safe? If you ask somebody knowledgeable about the field, all they can can do is recommend the overpriced stuff.

Whereas if there was independent testing and certification, the knowledgeable people could tell you that it is fine to get any product certified by <insert certifying authority's name>, if money is not a significant concern, you can go for the trusted expensive but well established brands, but if your budget is tighter, the cheaper certified stuff is still fine, and won't kill you, but might have other minor downsides like not looking as nice, weighing more than the higher end stuff, etc.

as another poster already pointed out, most brands are certified by the UIAA

the stuff to look for: ropes (EN 892:+A1:2016) in Europe carabiners/express sets: EN 12275: 2013, UIAA 121: 2018 "schlingen" (don't know the english word) for express sets: EN 566: 2017 belay devices: DIN EN 15151-1 , DIN EN 15151-2 (UIAA standard)

if you're in europe and want to buy a bit cheaper try decathlon, they have decent stuff from their inhouse brand "simond" and everything is certified and safe.

Otherwise.. just by from a decent brand, the stuff is safety critical.. so I personally would not cut cost with the gear :)

"But then you get reasonable priced items from no-name brands that might meet the specs, but nobody really knows, for all they can tell they might just just be unsafe junk just like the cheap stuff."

The need to overengineer things in the sport is quite interesting to me. I personally have tendency to use way more locking devices than my more experienced partners.

And I've replaced a lot of safe gear in my life just so my partners will feel safer.

To be honest, if someone shows up with a pile of mismatched draws and bootied cams I always feel way safer than when they show up with a nice shiny new rack.

One thing that's interesting to me is the difficulty of testing or inspecting things. I know plenty of people who find very old cordage or used gear in general to be sus.

I've tossed out plenty of two-decade old webbing and cordage that are perfectly fine and safe to use, just on the general principle that other folks might find it to be worrisome.

I also find most of the gear to be sanely priced; the reason the cheap stuff is cheap is because it skips an expensive certification process... so it's hard for me to call a $200 rope "overpriced". But then, I have a couple totems and was happy to pay what I had to pay for them.

What a lot of the discussion misses, and one thing I find super interesting, is that every time you climb you're dealing with used gear. And when you climb with a new partner you are often climbing on used gear of an unknown provenance.

The implication of this to me has always been that knowing how to inspect gear (and partners, HA!) and understanding all the real ways things go wrong is way more important and a much better use of my time than trying to get a deal from scoring un-branded gear.

My advice to folks is to read several editions of the AAC's yearly "Accidents in North American Climbing"-- that will tell you a whole lot (wear a helmet, back off sooner rather than later, be conservative when the stakes are higher, the gear itself is almost never the root cause).

Well, there is the UIAA, CE and CN.... but even if that weren't the general issues with rope are it being cut due to rockfall (which I have experienced and been terrified by) or due to repeatedly grinding over an edge.

The ropes in climbing are way safer than many aspects of the sport.

The thing that gives me pause over the last couple of years has been wondering about how picky I should be about partners.

Human error seems like the most dangerous part of the sport to me.

second that... the climbing partner/belayer is very important

as for ropes.. just by from the "big" companies, beal, tendon, edelrid, mammut, pezel, they're all certified by the UIAA, just be careful and buy a "single rope" and not a half rope or a twin rope... oh.. and I recommend doing a course in your local climbing gym first for lead :)

Bit late to the party but I didn't know about UIAA. Sometimes I forget I'm already nearing my 40's so a lot can happen in ~ 10-15 years (the last time I did any climbing).

All climbing ropes from reputable manufacturers are independently certified according to the European Norm EN 892. For example, here are the documents for all Black Diamond products: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/content/doc/

Surprised they don't mention the most commonly used knot for rapping: euro death knot.

Note that the monkey’s fist is an illegal knot everywhere in Australia and you can go to jail just for tying one.

I believe it. But source?

what??? Why?

Is it classified as a weapon or something?

Yes, it’s assumed you only make it as a weapon and possession is a presumption of intent to cause harm.

A colleague made one one so we could throw a rope over a beam. We all laughed about dobbing him in, then chopped it off and chucked it into the bin.

As has been noted elsewhere in the thread, the knot is NOT illegal in and of itself in Australia or anywhere else. The poster is exaggerating.

Could you link to a formal document specifying the ban? I'm not Australian, never even been there, so I have no idea how the legal system works there, but I'm very skeptical that any knot could be illegal in any civilized country.

Wait until you hear of banned books.

You are free to discuss about books as you wish, but books are not knots.

Is banning a book more civilized than banning a knot?

I have no idea why are you talking about books in a thread about knots. Feel free to talk about books as much as you wish, but it sure would be more beneficial to do it somewhere else.

My comments are in reply to your statement about not understanding how a civilized country can ban knots. To spell it out, I'm saying that we love banning things, and banning a knot is in line with that: it's not even the most disturbing ban we have. For example, we ban symbols (e.g. swastikas).

And there's your mistake, thinking that knots would be the same as books. Knots are knots.

Buddy, you're a broken record.

I don't see any sources on this, just some tongue in cheek Quora posts.

I did find something interesting about "the Slugshot" being illegal in some US states, but I would take this with a grain of salt considering the source.

http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2018/07/the-monkey-fists-nasty-co...

Concerning sources:

I don't know about Australia, but in Germany this knot is illegal to own and carry this knot if it is additionally weighted with, for example, metal balls.

Sources:

Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Affenfaust&oldid=...

Primary source: https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/UnsereAufgaben/Au...

Really? But they’re used on everything from fishing boats to cruise liners on the ends of heaving lines. You’re not supposed to weight them with lead, and if you’d done this and someone got hurt I think you’d be in trouble with health and safety but I’m sure they’re not illegal here. What do you put on the end of a heaving line in Aus?

This might provide some context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtWl9Mz2SPg

A "self-defense" keychain with a 1 inch steel ball enclosed within a monkey fist knot at the end. At 0:18 the demonstrator smashes a laptop with it. I found that pretty funny.

This is [k]not true. You'll often find these at wharves in Australia. They can be viewed as an offensive weapon, so an aggravating factor in an assault (which is probably where the misunderstanding comes from), but the knot itself is perfectly legal and used by sailors as the weighted end of a heaving line.

In fact, sailors are required to use a monkey's fist in some cases under Australia federal law: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01173

The knot does not appear in the list of prohibited weapons: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2018Q00081

Smoke Pot check your knot!

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