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Comment by clairity | Hacker News Reader

as much as i wish it were true, it certainly isn't evaporating because of apple maps, as implied by the post. apple maps is serviceable for directions, but on just about everything else, it's inferior to google maps (and i say this very begrudgingly because i'm no fan of google).

he notes 'look around' as an example of apple reaching parity, but that's such a minor feature, and a great example of where apple has misplaced its priorities. apple needs to do a much better job of getting accurate POI (places of interest) and being able to search on those on just about any facet a user can imagine. beyond the basics of roads, addresses, and directions, that's the killer feature of maps. instead, they create slightly better 3D renderings of urban buildings and tout that as some huge UX improvement in their annual keynote.

apple, please actually improve the killer feature and not everything else. i want to retire google maps (and waze) for good on my devices.

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I remember reading somewhere from someone on the google maps team that the most difficult challenge in maintaining google maps is keeping up to date and accurate information about the millions of small businesses in their map. Being able to trust the information about restaurants and businesses is why I use google maps.

I've found recently that even in SF, google maps's small business data is out of date and untrustworthy. I can trust it to give me a phone number and sometimes the website, but the actual omnibox info is only useful for businesses that I know are really well trafficked by the younger demographic.

Are they now robocalling the small businesses (and having the robots speak with the staff) in order to confirm their details? I had that impression from somewhere, but I don't know if it's right.

They developed an AI which can call and make reservations, change an appointment, etc (Google Duplex). The do use it for that purpose: https://support.google.com/business/answer/7690269?hl=en

This isn't my experience with Google Maps. Particularly during the pandemic, a lot of businesses were bordered up but still ostensibly "in business", with signs on the doors saying they'd be back in a few months. Google Maps claimed these businesses were all open during their normal hours.

Fair enough, but in my experience in NYC Apple Maps was even worse at this.

"Look around" and "street view" are a pretty big deal, I use that all the time. Or more specifically I use street view because it exists here.

I know this is a pretty bay area centric site, but for most of the US Google has this feature and Apple still doesn't. Around 20 cities total, with a heavy concentration in California. For about of third of the states in the US they cover a single city, the majority of states they have nothing.

EDIT - what's particularly surprising to me is how thorough Apple's rollout has been in Canada compared to the US. They've got every city and every highway, as well as getting off the highway to drive tiny towns like Warren Ontario where the total points of interest are one fire hall, one post office, one cafe, one restaurant, one credit union, one mechanic, and one gas station.

https://duckduckgo.com/?va=j&t=hb&q=warren+ontario&ia=web&ia...

Why have they done so much in Canada, but are missing tons of major places in the US still? Houston but not Dallas or Austin, Miami but not Jacksonville or Orlando, Philly but not Pittsburgh, not Nashville or Memphis or Knoxville, not Colombus or Cleveland or Cincinnati. Not to mention the entire country outside of large cities.

Just makes me wonder what's going on over there. Did they drive a ton of miles and then realize their US cars were collecting defective data? Accidentally deleted a datacenter?

> Why have they done so much in Canada, but are missing tons of major places in the US still?

>What seems to be happening is that there are actually two versions of Look Around. One version has POI labels,and the other does not.

This suggests that it takes Apple much longer to process the Look Around imagery that has POIs. And it’s likely that during this same processing, Apple is also extracting other features from its imagery (like road markings and real-life building colors) that are, in turn, being used to generate the new “city experience”.

In other words, Apple’s Look Around coverage in the U.S. and U.K. is so limited right now because Apple is likely still processing it and intends to show POI labels throughout both countries.

https://www.justinobeirne.com/look-around-united-states-cove...

Interesting. I wonder if this is preparing for a US-focused launch of their AR glasses.

Disappointing because I'd like to have the non-POI version working and have no interest in a $2000 AR thing.

The POI data, 3D map views and AR views derived from the data don't require AR glasses to view.

https://youtu.be/SF37ZQ_ItNY?t=23

For what it's worth that hasn't been my experience. I switched from Google to Apple Maps when I changed from Android to iOS about a year ago and basically didn't notice a difference, except that I'm now forced into looking Yelp reviews, which sucks. I was dreading that transition, but it ended up being no big deal.

Maybe I just rely less on the POI aspect of the service than you do? I tend to use navigation more, which if anything is better on Apple.

I've mostly switched to Apple Maps now. I often compare the two and while Google Maps is certainly more complete, I find Google Maps full stop wrong often when searching for things like "Mexican food". It shows a pizza and kolache place, while Apple Maps won't.

Regarding directions, I find Apple Maps more accurate in the time to destination and the UI much more pleasing. That said, if there is a ramp closed, Google is more likely to know about it.

For reviews, I find Google and Yelp mostly useless, Google's reviews appear spammed while yelp is known for removing bad reviews for money. Google has some neat insights like "how busy is it now", but I've found it to be very unreliable, Yelp can sometimes let you get in line at a restaurant. Google will have more photos usually, so that's a win.

Regarding directions, I find Apple Maps more accurate in the time to destination and the UI much more pleasing.

At least for transit, the UI is middling at best and downright confusing at times. For example, taking a bus or subway only shows you the origin and destination stops (with the route and stops in a secondary view), while every other app prominently shows you the approaching stop and how many stops left to the destination. Once you get off the bus/subway and need walking directions, Apple Maps does not switch, something many transit first apps will do.

For me, the app with the best UI for public transport is hands down the Transit app. It's also the only app I've seen that will ask to confirm which bus you boarded if different buses approached your stop at the same time. Plus, the app will update transfer options based on your ETA.

UI/UX aside, for route planning with public transport Citymapper is still the best.

I should probably try one of those apps, since Google and Apple certainly don't "get" public transit. Like when I'm going somewhere and need to change trains, I really just need to know the frequency of each service, not get fixated on an exact time as if I'm buying airplane tickets.

Google Maps certainly does "get" public transit. It's absolutely fantastic in Tokyo, telling you all the available routes, how long they'll take, how much they'll cost you, what platform to stand on, what station exit to take, which train car to board for most efficient transfer, what time the train will come exactly, etc. I don't need the frequency of trains, I need the exact time it comes, because that is when the train will arrive. And if I get delayed by stopping in a shop in the station, it's no big deal since the next train will arrive within 5 minutes anyway.

Here in NYC, Google Maps does absolutely none of these. It doesn't offer price, or which train car to board for efficient transfers - both of these are only offered in the Citymapper app. All the apps do offer when the next train will arrive, but most will not offer alternate line trains on the fly if you were to stop over at a shop, for example. The Transit app does offer alternate lines on the fly, but only if it was one of the initial alternatives for that sector.

Citymapper is also the only app that handles train or bus disruptions somewhat gracefully - I've had both Google and Apple maps offer routes on trains that were currently not running.

>It doesn't offer price

Aren't all train tickets the same price in NYC? In Tokyo, there's a bunch of different train companies, and every fare is different depending on the company, where you're going, if you're doing a transfer, etc.

>or which train car to board for efficient transfers

Because it would be useless: in America, there's absolutely no concept of a train stopping at the same place in a station every time. There could be a half-train-length difference between where one train stops, and where the next train stops on the same tracks in the same station, because the operators are so sloppy. Here in Tokyo, they stop at the exact same place every time: there's automated doors on the platform that have to line up with the train doors in many stations, and specific places to stand marked on the platform with markings for which car number will be there.

Aren't all train tickets the same price in NYC?

Subway trains, yes, but not the commuter rail. Plus, while on the subway network one transfer to and from the bus network is free, your route might require you to make multiple transfers that are not free. In addition, there are also cross borough express buses that are more expensive. Citymapper is the only app that shows total prices alongside the route options.

in America, there's absolutely no concept of a train stopping at the same place in a station every time. There could be a half-train-length difference between where one train stops, and where the next train stops on the same tracks in the same station, because the operators are so sloppy.

Not the case at all. The NYC subway conductors are required to manually point to "Zebra Boards" aligned with the center of the platform at every single stop - a practice that originated in Japan. Some stations also need platform gap fillers to be extended when the train arrives, which also requires trains to stop at very specific points at the platform. NYC subway platforms also have markings to stand for where the train door will be.

This is all to say that it is indeed possible to know which train car to board for efficient transfer or exit. Google Maps only provides information on which exit or entrance to use at the station, but nothing about the platform itself. Citymapper tells you that the best location to board the train is towards the back, for example.

>I think that if Facebook did just provide phonebook-like functionality I would be so interested in using it. Instead, it feels more like an application(s) built to serve ads that happens to provide some phonebook functionality.

Interesting, I guess I didn't notice this last time I was in NYC.

In DC (where I lived for years until recently), this stuff just isn't the case at all. There's no way to predict where the operator will stop the train, and it can be many car-lengths different from operator to operator.

While I do generally use Apple Maps for directions, their utter reliance on Yelp for POI is frustrating. I find I have to confirm business hours with Google Maps which has tended to be more reliable when in conflict, at least in my experience in NYC. I also wish Apple Maps had an offline mode - I find I have to fall back to GMaps on the subway.

I've found the directions from Apple Maps to be far easier to follow than what Google Maps gives. Heck Google Maps gives plenty of nonsensical directions, even in cities where Google has an office! (Seriously though, wasn't the Google Maps team in the Seattle area for awhile? Why so many long standing brain dead bugs with local stuff...)

"turn left in 600 ft" vs "turn left at the Jack in the Box up ahead."

IMHO the single largest improvement to Google Maps in the last few years has been the inclusion of traffic lights on the map. Location data, especially in cities, is often spotty and can be plus or minus a block, knowing I should turn at the stop light, or one intersection before the stop light, is the single most useful bit of information Google Maps gives me, and it is unfortunate I have to look down at my screen to glean this bit of important data.

I've listened to the instructions Uber's mapping app gives to drivers, and it also seems to be an improvement over what Google Maps has.

> apple needs to do a much better job of getting accurate POI (places of interest)

Parking garages is a huge one. The day Google Maps added parking structure information for corporate offices (well over a decade ago) it became far more useful. It doesn't always have it, but when it does, super nice.

Google Maps used to also accept tons of community contributions, for better and for worse. I am sad to see them go though, some people used to update food truck information regularly, and still today you can see the last location a food truck was marked as being at!

Edit: Google Maps has also gotten pathologically obsessed with the "technically fastest" route over the years. At present, they will regularly direct drivers to do stupid things like turn left across 3-4 lanes of highway traffic, instead of going down 1 block and using an intersection that has a left turn signal. Are Google's directions technically 1 minute faster? Sure, at the cost of 1 extra white hair on my head. Not a good trade off.

> IMHO the single largest improvement to Google Maps in the last few years has been the inclusion of traffic lights on the map

This is something I wanted for years. I was so happy when I finally started seeing it in Google Maps and Apple Maps.

At present, they will regularly direct drivers to do stupid things like turn left across 3-4 lanes of highway traffic, instead of going down 1 block and using an intersection that has a left turn signal. Are Google's directions technically 1 minute faster? Sure, at the cost of 1 extra white hair on my head.

Telling drivers to turn left across traffic costs far more than that. It contributes directly to gridlock, which wastes everyone's time and fuel.

It's inexcusable that turn-by-turn providers don't allow an option to disable or at least penalize left turns in their routing algorithm. UPS figured this out, what, 20 years ago?

It isn't the left turn that is the issue, if there is a highway in the middle there isn't much else you can do, after all if you are going to go across it you may as well turn left at the same stop light. I'm discounting the option of driving across all lanes of the highway without a stop light, since that is an even stupider plan than turning left to get onto the highway!

At least Google maps usually makes it easy to compare 2 or 3 different route options and let you choose which makes the most sense. But I agree it should more heavily discount "dangerous" manoeuvres, or at least ones that could potentially take far longer than the average time. As far as whether such directions contribute to gridlock, I'm not so sure - in principle if everyone followed directions generated by the same algorithm with access to "live data", it should significantly help reduce it. It'll be interesting once all cars are self-driving/self-navigating whether that proves to be true, and whether there might end up being fundamental conflicts between different algorithms used by different makes of vehicle.

For me, the killer feature of Google Maps is Reviews. For directions, I now usually use Apple Maps, although somehow I find myself "double checking" with Google Maps, especially for public transportation. Also the opening hours are more accurate on Google Maps, because a lot of business actively update their Google Maps profile, but not their Apple Maps profile (probably don't even have one there).

I've noticed that Apple Maps recently added their own review system with the thumbs up and down, so it looks like they're trying to get there.

For directions, I now usually use Apple Maps, although somehow I find myself "double checking" with Google Maps, especially for public transportation.

In my experience both Apple Maps and Google Maps can give unreasonable directions for public transport, with the best in class being Citymapper. It's also the only service that provides guidance on which subway car to board (closest exit for transfers, for example).

Look around should be powering quite a bit more than just look around in the app. Google uses their street view data as a source for POI data, lane assist data, signage data, speed limit data and far more.

I've seen more than one case where Google has clearly used OCR on streetview imagery to add business to their database (OCR typos and all). They also OCR signs to improve driving directions, and update street names, and they also use OCR to extract speed limit data for roads, as most places don't have a single easily accessible database of speed limits.

I think it's reasonable to assume that Apple is gonna be doing the same things. Sure it also feeds some pretty UI, but if you wanna know where things are, then photographing the entire world is a pretty robust approach.

There is also the fact that Apple maps is only available on Apple devices, while Google maps can be used from basically any device with a web browser. Google benefits greatly from this since a lot of info is crowdsourced.

You can access Apple Maps (though not the full feature set) through the web, notably on Duckduckgo.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hollywood+sign&t=h_&ia=places&iaxm...

Yeah... I'm not sure I agree on 'look around' being a minor feature or a misplaced priority, but I definitely agree about it being pretty crummy on POI. I think part of that is because Apple's POI database is partially Yelp's POI database, whereas Google has its crawlers working to seed its POI db.

Another issue is that business owners immediately think Google and add their new business to Google maps, but not many think about Apple maps. Maybe this might change in the future, but I think Apple will need to add some grease to incentivize that effort.

I would donate towards an Open POI DB sitting on top of OpenStreetMap, and the ongoing system needed to keep that DB updated (automated emails/sms/postcards/outreach and folks contributing data back from ground truth).

This is the equivalent of a phone and location directory, and it should not be locked up by Google (or another commercial vendor for that matter).

it's not that 'look around' is not important and has no priority, but that it's incorrect. if apple had solid POI/place data, then they could work next on improving look around, indoor maps, and 3D models, because that does add value, but not as much as accurate POI data, hence misplaced priorities.

yelp is was a smart way to get a jump start on place data, but apple should have spent much more time and effort (and some of it's $100B+ warchest) on getting this to a much more useful place on their own, especially if it really has designs on challenging google in the autonomous car space.

as a product manager, i can only shake my head when i see such a basic flubbing.

The funny thing was: my college who has always the newest IPhone told me one day that google maps on his phone wouldn't route him along cycle roads. It was of course Apple Maps and it doesn't have cycle routing in my quite big city in Germany (Frankfurt/M).

Well at least I now know how those cyclists get onto the Autobahn because not realising that Apple Maps doesn't have cycle routing, the poor man almost ended up on a highway.

To be fair, Google Maps’ cycling and walking directions are also very sketchy.

I think driving directions are similar or slightly better in Apple Maps. But finding the place where you want to go is where Apple is behind. Misplaced, duplicate, missing POIs is what we learned to expect. Apple needs to find a way to motivate all kinds of businesses to put themselves and their opening hours on their map.

Google directions are the second best navigation experience I had here in Germany for cycling. Close behind OSM (probably because they take data from OSM without saying so...).

Cycle ways are also quite well documented here. It shouldn't be an issue at all. Especially in such a big city. They even use OSM data officially.

My guess is: they just don't care because the market is not good enough and most of their customers are happy with car navigation. According to the wiki page [+] they have cycling maps in China which is ridiculous if you consider the bike infrastructure in Germany. It isn't if you consider the market.

[+]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps

I used Apple Maps ONCE in my CarPlay enabled car.

I asked for directions to my daughter's school. It took me somewhere 5 miles away, but in the general area.

It's not a small or unknown school either, it's a well known and large preparatory school.

That's the kind of first experience that turns people off for good - I know it did me.

It varies widely by location. The only persistent problem I see with Apple is that most business locations seem auto-generated from the address, which can mean they're a couple doors off from where they're supposed to be. But I fix those whenever I see it happen, and I've gotten a dozen or so contributions accepted by Apple, so that's cool

Also, for what it's worth, I definitely miss Street View; it's not just a novelty, and I'm glad Apple added their own version. I'm not impressed with the Apple version's current coverage, but I'm hoping it improves

That's primarily my biggest issue with apple maps as well although I try to use it over google maps. It's been 2 years since I left the US but prior to that apple is pretty horrendous outside of the US in my experience as far this goes. It's not great in the US but it's pretty worthless at finding anything you might be interested when you're not in the US. Again it's been two years so maybe it's better now but given that it hasn't improved here in the big city I live in I can't imagine it's better outside the US.

I use Apple Maps for nav in the car because the Apple Carplay support is better, and it's usually pretty good, but I've had a couple of occasions recently where I've questioned the directions it's given me: like, why aren't you routing me according to shortest time to destination even though that's what I want?

for that, i usually check traffic first, to see if that's the reason. if not, i take the route i want and let maps adjust automatically.

Google has a lot of POI data, but it's not necessarily good data. What POI data do you find missing in Apple maps? Most of the recent issues with retail establishments changing hours has also affected Google Maps in my experience.

It wasn't hard to find an example. The restaurant nearest my house that I could think of which closed most recently was Cesar in Berkeley. Google has it listed as permanently closed and does not draw a POI for it. Apple says it will be open today at 4pm.

Google has most of the restaurant times around me correct, but the map is also littered with a bunch of businesses that don't exist. Their small-business data is a mess. It looks like a lot of independent contractor hustles that people have are incorrectly listed as brick and mortar businesses. There's at least a dozen in just my neighborhood -- single family homes incorrectly listed as things like night clubs, schools, retail stores, a church, etc.

And outside of the US it only gets worse. Apple only lists about half of the stores in a shopping mall near where I live in Amsterdam. They still list a bank branch as open that has been closed for around two years now. Amusingly they also list the department store that replaced it (correctly at the same address). Both the bank and the department stores are from about the largest chains in the country, not obscure mom and pop stores.

literally every time i go to search for anything--a restaurant, a venue, a specialty shop, etc.--apple maps returns an arbitrarily limited and often unrelated/nonsensical results set. it also has a habit of zooming me to an entirely region/country, when it knows my exact location right now, because the data is so sparse and incomplete.

i'm not saying google results are perfect, far from it, but they certainly don't typically do the above.

For what it's worth, I also get annoyed with how often google thinks I want "Foo Cafe" in Atlanta when I'm really looking for "Foo Restaurant" two blocks away from me in Boston.

Dealing with that is enough to make you want to go to "Foo Bar"

randomly, i tried "king and i", which was my favorite thai place in boston (way back in the day), and it did find one nearby me first. the search ahead list did show the one in boston too, further down (i'm super happy they're still around btw).

but yah, foo anything is like a box of chocolates. you just never know what you're gonna get!

Ditto when you're specifying a target for routing: "Ok lets just zoom you out a hundred kilometers..."

Doesn't matter how good their POI data is if they pollute the search results with Dunkin Donuts, Arby's, Burger King, McDonald's, and any other godforsaken chain restaurant who pays to be first in line. Especially on mobile, I find it very, very difficult to look through restaurant matches that search my criteria because:

- Maps won't show all of the results in the map view

- Maps prioritizes these kinds of chains that pay good money over more relevant restaurants (for instance, I searched "Cafe" in Boston last week, and both McDonalds and Dunkin Donuts were among the top 5 results. Not exactly the most relevant results)

- no matter how much you zoom in, Maps just won't show you certain businesses. I'm not sure if they haven't payed up enough protection money to Google, or if the business listing isn't optimized, or what... but it's a crap experience when I know there's a great business in a general area but every time I search, Google zooms me out to shove Wendy's in my face

Do other people experience these same issues with Google Maps? Am I somehow using the product wrong? I've been trying to contribute to OSM and use it instead when possible, but the POI data just isn't quite complete enough... and businesses almost never update their own hours on OSM.

For directions, traffic, etc, Waze is king. Of course, Alphabet owns that too.

I’ve printed out Waze directions for a 5 hour drive when I didn’t have a smart phone. I was confused when Waze told me to take the next exit because it was going into a different city. Turned out when I got to that exit there was a huge line of cars reduced to a crawl on the highway and Waze had me drive through the town to, presumably, save time. 4 years later and I’m still amazed printed out directions accurately predicted backed-up traffic.

Why isn’t Waze integrated more into GMaps? I’ve heard they use it as a beta platform to test features but I rarely use google maps so I have no clue.

It already happened. Apple is doing POI in-house now and it’s much improved.

It’s great for directions!*

* if you want to take the silliest route possible to a store that went out of business three years ago, but Apple thinks is open until 6pm on Tuesday

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