How fast is 12th Gen Intel Core?
frame.work
frame.work
It's not that Intel is bad, it's still pretty great but in the age of M1 I wish Intel released a processor with similar power consumption.
I use my Intel i5-1240p with turbo boost disabled when on battery. Here's the geekbench with TB disabled. https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16497299
edit: My laptop has a i7-12700H, which uses more power than the cpu in the framework laptop.
More thoughts: The laptop is pretty much always plugged in. When I'm out I carry a little 60W charger with me.
However for other reasons I wouldn't recommend the XPS 17. I have a Lenovo legion 7 at home that I'm more happy with (cheaper, better performance, lots of ports, etc)
Last week, on my M1 MBP, I spent an hour in a Teams (Electron!) call while off power and battery went from 99% to 96%.
Intel needs to match that to even be in the game for portables IMO.
If they invested in contributing Linux drivers they'd probably be able to takeover the market for developers. Asahi is slowly improving, but it doesn't feel ready yet to be someone's sole daily machine.
Ultimately my M1 MBP sits on the shelf collecting dust, except for occasional testing. My smaller and lighter Intel laptop already gets 8 hours of battery life which is more than enough for me, and has perfect Linux support.
The macOS UI is bit annoying and the fact that you have to install tiny apps like to have a separate trackpad and mouse scrolling direction is not ideal, but yeah it's all dwarfed by the fact I finally can't hear any fans and performance is just as good as plugged in. I can't remember when I last time had a laptop on a sofa without having to worry about the charger and getting laps uncomfortably hot.
At least it did when I still used macOS on portables. Now I only have a mini left for work
Scroll reverser allows you to set them up separately.
And I just bought a maxed out XPS 13 Plus, which I generally like.
This may have been true when the M1 was just released, but the gap both in performance and power consumption is shrinking. And that's with the competition still being one process node behind.
I don’t care how fast it is as long as it continues to have those mediocre low travel keyboards. They’re better than their worst keyboards from the 2018 era but they still aren’t good
I always consider the built-in keyboard as a sort of emergency/convenience tool.
I'm on ArchLinux with a window manager and no desktop whatsoever. I also disabled the GPU. I wonder if there is something draining your battery on the background.
Intel is in a better position financially than AMD was, and could catch up again. I tend to think it depends a lot on the organization and the people.
IC: A few people consider you 'The Father of Zen', do you think you’d scribe to that position? Or should that go to somebody else?
JK: Perhaps one of the uncles. There were a lot of really great people on Zen. There was a methodology team that was worldwide, the SoC team was partly in Austin and partly in India, the floating-point cache was done in Colorado, the core execution front end was in Austin, the Arm front end was in Sunnyvale, and we had good technical leaders. I was in daily communication for a while with Suzanne Plummer and Steve Hale, who kind of built the front end of the Zen core, and the Colorado team. It was really good people. Mike Clark's a great architect, so we had a lot of fun, and success. Success has a lot of authors - failure has one. So that was a success. Then some teams stepped up - we moved Excavator to the Boston team, where they took over finishing the design and the physical stuff, Harry Fair and his guys did a great job on that. So there were some fairly stressful organizational changes that we did, going through that. The team all came together, so I think there was a lot of camaraderie in it. So I won't claim to be the ‘father’ - I was brought in, you know, as the instigator and the chief nudge, but part architect part transformational leader. That was fun.
After being ahead of Intel in the Pentium 4 era. The problem back then was marketing and giant amount of (probably illegal now) bundling that was rampant back then.
AMD had to make a much better product to get manufacturers to consider it, not just being price competitive. It took the P4 train wreck to get the market to shift but Intel had enough lock-in to make it to the Core generation without losing too much market share because so many of the vendors had those contracts.
Thunderbird was released in 1999 and from there to the Core 2 Duo release in 2006, AMD was the performance leader (certainly at a huge discount compared to intel offerings).
If Intel only had a competitive advantage during that era because they traded performance for security, was there ever really an advantage?
I personally don't think Gelsinger is going to be able to fix their culture issues. He's been more intent on pumping stock and asking for handouts than innovating, which is part of what got them where they are in the first place, for good or ill.
Security is important, I would always prefer a secure product. But given design habits that elide security for performance, as well as a compromised supply chain, the only choice we have is to side with the devil(s) we know.
Even with longer fulfillment timelines, availability isn't necessary worth the surprise cost of competitiveness.
Lifecycling early and having to buy additional hardware to meet capacity was passed onto our customers.
Intel can build ARMs and RISC-Vs as well as anybody. Harder will be adapting their salespeople to non-monopoly conditions.
Their top performance was lower than Intel in many cases, but it was certainly not "absolute garbage". For low- to mid-range they offered similar performance with usually a (much) lower price point. For normal "average person" usage they were often the better choice in terms of "bang for your buck".
The main reason we were selling Intels is because we got a rebate from Intel for every CPU we sold. Financially it didn't really matter if we sold a €400 computer, €500, or €600 computer: the profit margin for us was roughly identical (a little bit more, but not much), but with Intel you got a rebate back-channelled, so then it did matter.
The CPU is great. It’s power envelope and performance feel amazing.
My biggest complaint is the there is a very limited selection of Laptops with AMD’s chips, especially the top tier. The one I bought required me to replace the Wifi/Bluetooth card (it came with a barely “supported” MediaTek one) for Linux.
Build quality is excellent, but the first one died after 2 days: charge light wouldn't even go on. Waiting for #2. Wish me luck!
Lenovo's is the only one I find with 16" 3840x2400 OLED, but just a 6850, $2800. Or with 6950 but just 1920x1200, $2635. None with both. Advantage, Radeon R6500M GPU. Doesn't say which wifi it has.
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq=&text=21D4000HUS
Dell has a 17" 6900HX, 4k, 32G RAM, RX6850 GPU, $2800. Or 6800H and RX6700, $2550. Mediatek MT7921 wifi...
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops/alienware-...
But I swore never to buy another Lenovo. Or Dell. Hoping I won't have to swear off ASUS too.
It’s a more traditional style than a Unibody, sure. But it’s fine.
I have my gripes with MacOS after years of linux/windows usage, but responsiveness on M1 is not one of them.
I have turned off the genie effect and perhaps other animations, but my Ubuntu on my Lenovo still feels faster than the Mac.
The Ryzen chips are already clocking over 3 GHz, so there isn't much more scaling from power left. That's why 5nm Zen4 probably won't move the needle too much.
Surprising results. Definitely not in the "very far" range.
Keep in mind the 6850U you're comparing against has a fan too. Notebookcheck says it has a 40W turbo on the gen 2 model, and the gen 3 Intel version has a 28W sustained boost. An M2 uses around 20W.
Also, a lot of those benchmarks are showing all x86 CPUs with a 3x+ lead, which indicates software optimization problems. Geekbench 5 is optimized for both arm64 and x86 and shows the M2 ahead of the 6800U. There are also just broken results like the LC0 test where the M1 is substantially faster than the M2. Overall, your results don't seem very valid.
> Overall, your results don't seem very valid.
They're not "my" results, and thermals were not part of the discussion.
Regarding performance, if one wants to be rigorous (and that's why I didn't state "68xx is faster than Mx"), one can't make absolute claims either way, as Torvalds himself has criticized Geekbench.
I still think that describing the performance difference as "not very far" is a valid assessment.
If they had tried to force the P4 mobiles instead of rethinking and retooling the PIII core with some of the P4's FSB innovations and other things, they probably wouldn't of had as competitive mobile processors and maybe wouldn't have dethroned AMD a few years later.
Cinebench is a great benchmark if you use Cinema4D, which I asumme 99.99% of the people buying these laptops won't use. Cinema4D is a niche of a niche.
Geekbench is far more representative of what kind of performance you can expect from a CPU.
https://reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/pitid6/eli5_why_does_...
For people that code, it also correlates poorly with parallel code compilation.
You can say the same about gaming. It's tops in Cinebench and most games. Therefore Cinebench and gaming must have a high correlation? No.
Geekbench is an even worse benchmark than cinebench. It's extremely heavily influenced by the underlying OS rather than the hardware being compared.
Cinebench 1T and mT at least actually benchmark the hardware.
And to put those blender numbers in comparison https://prodesigntools.com/number-of-creative-cloud-subscrib...
How so?
It could be fun to have a `lap benchmark`. That is can you keep a laptop on your lap while it runs Cinebench R23 for 10 minutes? With TB disabled, I can.
Don't forget 12th gen Intel CPUs have a lot more cores than 11th gen Intel CPUs. That's where the significant benchmark improvements are coming from. Unfortunately though, these often don't reflect the real world use case. Having more cores isn't going to improve the day-to-day performance very much. The new efficiency cores probably improve battery life though
Fans spinning all the time and no way of disabling this madness.
Nearly the same for my Mac colleagues. They maybe get 2 hours out of their M1 MBPs unplugged.
Carbon Black probably needs some adjustments, or they need to spec laptops better. That sounds pretty intense and unnecessary.
With those tools running, builds take over an hour if they complete at all. With the tools disabled, builds complete in under a minute.
Fuck this company, one of my wife’s jobs is BYOD but requires GlobalProtect for their VPN. After the software has been running for a few hours, even disconnected, it just starts chewing CPU cycles and grinds her M1 MacBook to a halt.
The only way to terminate it is via `defaults write` command in the terminal. It’s basically malware.
Horrid piece of software. I don't know when this sort of office-abuse became the norm but it makes me very sour about our industry as a whole.
It's crazy to think you have these opposing teams of engineers, the Apple ones working away to optimise like crazy to reduce power consumption and the compliance software teams thinking up new ways to profligately use more.
So I'm faced with having to log out and power off every day or suck up the cost of keeping the laptop on. /r/maliciouscompliance, here I come I suppose.
Tempted to get one of these: https://us.amazon.com/Vegamax-Button-Ethernet-Internet-Netwo...
When did this become a chore? I do this as standard and imo all people should. SSD Boot times these days are mostly under a minute and you get a fresh desktop every time.
EDIT: In fact I am one of the sysadmins which so many seem to despise on here. I have hybrid sleep and fast startup disabled by group policy on all my windows domain networks. It reduces so many support tickets by just actually having machines properly rebooted every night. Without this, people contact IT for glitches and bugs in their system, and when you look at the system uptime it is years!
edit: i would legitimately quit a company that made me reboot every single night.
Be aware I am in a corporate environment, with all non technical users, and all services online.
I guess I'll have to add this to my questions to ask at job interviews. Admins like you these days sure try to make our lives as horrible as possible. Corporate anti-virus, DNS interception and policies like these turn my machine into something I constantly want to throw out the window.
All because you are too lazy to ask a person to reboot if the machine has high uptime.
Nothing to do with laziness. As other people have often mentioned on HN, in the real world of understaffed underbudget corporate IT you need to do what you can to enforce things which make everybodies life easier.
It might very well be that it is preferable to the organization as a whole to sacrifice a bit of productivity everywhere for less burden on IT. But IMHO it should not be a decision which the IT department can make in isolation.
If you are disabling things by policy, it should be after a discourse with your users and a serious attempt at training. Being a GPO dictator is an anti-pattern.
Policies such as yours are tremendously user hostile, and they are a reflection of the company's culture. I would probably not quit such a company, but I would certainly go rouge by either bringing my own equipment, or reinstalling the OS. If reprimanded, then I would quit.
I don't think this means what you think it means. I'm not a dev, but a mechanical engineer, and having to shutdown nightly, and reopen things the next morning, would cost the company at least an hour of my work time every week.
The frontline IT guys aren’t able to deal with shit like that, so a draconian policy comes top down.
In addition to the obvious browser I typically have an IDE, a few terminal windows, email, a few communication clients (due to internal and customer choices, not mine), and usually one or two database clients open at most times. Some of those restore their state nicely while others don't. Some of the terminal windows have e.g. a particular set of terminals at certain directories because I need to keep track of and work on multiple source repos at the same time.
Starting all of those from scratch every day would indeed be a chore. Perhaps more importantly, having my desktop be the way I left it also automatically reminds me what I was doing and helps continue from where I was.
A fresh desktop every morning would be a misfeature for me and would annoy and frustrate me immensely if forced on me.
I do of course reboot now and then for system updates etc., and I don't mind that.
There might be a decent rationale for forcing a reboot or disabling sleep on non-tech office devices if the staff are technically unskilled, but this is HN, so it's not much of a surprise if people aren't keen.
The year is $CURRENT_YEAR, needing to reboot a system should be regarded as a last resort and a relic of the past. No matter how much effort you dump into making apps remember their state when they're closed, it will always be strictly inferior to just dumping RAM to disk.
Why should I? Not long ago, my laptop had uptime of over half a year.
[Edit: Oh, "windows domain networks"? I guess perhaps that explains your propensity for rebooting?]
If the laptop crashes more than once a week, I simply won't use it. If I worked at your company, I'd just BYOD, and keep your garbage laptop in a drawer, only booting for compliancy crap (and certainly not leaving it on long enough to download updates).
I've actually done this at a previous job or two. It was fine. Both (large behemoth) companies ended up cratering, at least partially due to chasing away competent employees with boneheaded corporate policies.
Office? Gitlab? Jira? Confluence? Any code at all? Adobe Experience Cloud? Any Google Service? Adobe Creative Cloud? Our Time and Expenses Tooling?
All locked behind SSO with EPM enforced. Additionally nearly all internal resources are only accessible via VPN. And guess what - only usable on EPM devices.
When I started I received a device, SDD encrypted me being root. After being acquired by big corp we now are in compliance world. Parts of that would have come regardless of big corp due to client requirements.
But a lot of this is quite taxing.
But these laptops were in bags, the last thing I wanted was a mac to start a house fire by heating up in a bag, so fuck that.
We disabled sleep to improve battery life and address a personal safety issue. There are many failure scenarios between various builds of Windows 10 and shitty drivers. Devices often wake up in bags and spin up fans until dead.
Normal scenario is that the battery is dead in the morning. In one case, it melted the compartment material in a bag and was deemed a safety hazard.
Problem solved.
I sudo turn off the garbage and I haven’t been caught yet.
Another interesting ARM system is Nvidia's Jetson AGX Orin DevKit, which clocks in at (GB5: single: 763 / multi: 7193) [3]. That system is linux native right now, but of course isn't a laptop form factor.
[1]: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/15575694 [2]: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-5.20-SoCs-8cx-Gen3-Arm [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrZt90c_-C8 (sorry for the video link)
EDIT: Also confirmed that WSL2 runs natively on Win11 ARM. So you can have an optimized full Linux kernel running on the Thinkpad as well.
Without TB, I'm down to 8x 2.4, which is a bit sluggish.
Meanwhile in a server, I'm starting to worry that as I work to flush performance issues out of the system, especially latency problems, that I won't see the sort of perf numbers I'm expecting because the fact that the machines are running well below 50% CPU utilization are likely to dogleg the moment it hits the thermal limits, and I have no way to predict that, short of maybe collecting CPU temperature telemetry. Not only might my changes not translate into 1:1 or even 1.2:1 gains, they might be zero gains and or just raise the CPU utilization.
Magical CPU utilization also takes away one of the useful metrics for autoscaling servers. Thermal throttling opens the door to outsized fishtailing scenarios.
If this 'standard' takes off it could start an entire ecosystem of modular hardware. That's exciting. I'm hoping for a 'Framework surface', a 'Framework tv', a 'Framework 400', etc.
* https://github.com/whatthefilament/Framework-Tablet
* https://www.instructables.com/Framework-Tablet-Assembly-Manu...
Imagine hardware that you control, that you can upgrade piecemeal when something gets out of date. Besides the eco friendliness, it just sounds... nice?
I never realized how much heat, vibration, air blowers negatively affected me before. A framework laptop with some type of ARM or ARM-like cpu could do a lot with the space savings on cooling.
Samsung's internal processor division seems to be sucking. Google is trying it half-heartedly like they do with nearly everything. Nvidia and AMD haven't really tried to compete for the desktop ARM market, and Intel certainly hasn't. Qualcomm has rolled their mobile chips for laptops, but they remain mobile chips in a larger form factor. So Apple is in a class of its own for desktop-grade ARM CPUs.
Chromebooks are mostly low price, and may lack the software to truly push the chips often (without dropping into dev mode).
Windows on ARM seems to be a near failure. Very little native software and x86(-64) emulation is far slower than Rosetta. May not matter, they seem to be low cost machines anyway.
Linux just isn’t a big enough consumer market to drive it.
Server seems to be the big front for ARM, but that’s a very different chip. So I’m under the impression ARM laptops (outside Apple) are just phone chips, which don’t compete on the same level.
I'm very happy with my SP X running insider Windows 11 and WSL2. You couldn't pry it from my dead fingers for travel use right now.
This to me sounds like the experience people were praising the M1 chips for, and tbh Intel actually delivered for once. I say this as someone who had been solidly in the AMD camp for a long time. Thanks to competition, Intel now has to be good. Weird!
Also Samsung laptops don’t last in my experience. They make short term tradeoffs at the expense of long term reliability.
I haven't had trouble finding an outlet for years, even at airports, planes, coffeeshops, etc.
Not to mention your laptop not getting hot enough to boil eggs or sounding like a 747 when you open too ,any Chrome tabs.
Maybe that's a skewed perspective though. I have yet to try the Pro/Max chips seriously (or the mobile 12th gen chips, incidentally), but I don't really find myself pining for them either. If my laptop is too limiting, I hop on Tailscale and dev on my desktop.
Meanwhile my MacBook from work gets risking-burns-hot from just screensharing on a Zoom call.
I'm willing to put up with all the downsides of this laptop and the OS, just because of the battery life.
I get around 6 hours from 100% with a light Webpack dev workflow + Docker for Mac running in the background (arm64 postgres and redis containers).
Is that normal? powermetrics shows package power bouncing around 500mW - 10 watts when compiling, which would suggest I should be getting a lot more battery life. Is there a utility to reliably check power consumption of the whole system? Stats.app seems to think my system idles around 5 watts and goes to 40 watts when compiling which is much higher than the package power and my screen is only 1/3 brightness.
Not really. My M1, used for email, browsing, some xterms, some emacs, 3 or 4 video meetings and the Goland IDE, only gets about 5 hours.
When new it was a little longer than that.
My compute[1] is done locally only. My personal laptop is an HP Victus, it gets around 7 hours because I don't compute locally, which makes the M1 look okay in comparison.
I always wonder about these people who claim the M1 can last a full day without needing to be charged - they can't be developing on the thing, can they? If they're not doing computations on the thing, then the battery life is quite similar to all other non-gaming laptops in that price range.
[1] If by 'compute' you mean compiling code, running it, debugging it, etc
ETA: Comparable laptops reviewed by that site get 8hr runtime from a 71Wh battery and the P CPU, or 13 hours from a 60Wh battery and the U CPU.
I just recently stumbled across these two otherwise identical laptops.
https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_...
https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_...
The AMD version is rated for 20% greater battery life just from the CPU difference.
In some instances Alder Lake CPUs slightly edge out Apple's CPUs in performance, but with a terrible battery life (~4 hours of real world battery life vs >10 hours on Apple laptops) and noisy fans.
AMD on the other hand seems to have focused on getting a good balance this year. 6800U models have significant performance improvements over the last gen while improving the battery life as well.
I am thinking of buying a new laptop this year, but I am waiting for the AMD models. For anyone interested, these are the models I am waiting for:
https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkBook/ThinkBook_13s_G4_...
https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3...
Both have much better battery life than their Intel counterparts:
ThinkBook 13s Gen 4 (AMD): 14 hours
ThinkBook 13s Gen 4 (Intel): 10.9 hours
ThinkPaf X13 Gen 3 (AMD): 15.68 hours
ThinkPad X13 Gen 3 (Intel): 11.8 hours
These numbers are usually lower in real life, but they are comparable with each other.
There are data sheets and then there is real life. People were raving about AMD laptops before. I got a ThinkPad T14 AMD with a 4750U. The stated psref battery life is MobileMark 2014: 14 hr, MobileMark 2018: 11.5 hr. In practice that was more like 7 hours on Windows (with a mild workload) and 3 hours on Linux. The CPU performance was merely ok and I could get the fans blowing quite quickly.
Life with the laptop was quite miserable. There were many other paper cuts and despite being Linux-certified, I used Windows with WSL most of the time since basic things like suspend would at least work relatively reliably.
I sold the T14 after 7 months (thank deity that there was a chip shortage, so I could recoup quite a lot of the 1400 Euro I paid for the T14), got a MacBook Air M1 and didn't look back. It's a world of difference.
The machine that I'm currently using comes with a Ryzen 6800H CPU and LPDDR5-6400 RAMs, made by Lenovo. On Linux, the builtin keyboard don't work because of IRQ problems (See [1], a fix is also available at [2]), and it constantly spams out "mce: [Hardware Error]: Machine check events logged" messages.
[1]: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=277260
[2]: https://lore.kernel.org/all/20220712020058.90374-1-gch981213...
If you read the code in [2], the patch basically disables IRQ override for every new Ryzen machines (`boot_cpu_has(X86_FEATURE_ZEN)`). Based on that, I assume every new Ryzen CPU has the same problem(???)
Edit: wait... blaming it on the CPU might be unjust, it's more like a kernel adoption problem.
Luckily, compiling Linux kernel with 16 threads is not really too big of a struggle, you can just apply the patch manually every time the kernel updates :-) :-| :-(
Plenty of people have new Ryzen laptops that work just fine.
But it's not CPU, it's Lenovo. Lenovo has terrible firmware team.
You can read more about this in my blog
https://127001.me/post/ten-years-of-thinkpadding/#_the_ugly_...
The exact problem is that an IRQ/ACPI workaround is not needed anymore on modern Zen platforms, and it (the workaround) now breaks compatibility. It's already in linux master, and will be released for v6.0
Commit message of the fix:
commit 9946e39fe8d0a5da9eb947d8e40a7ef204ba016e
Author: Chuanhong Guo <gch981213@gmail.com>
ACPI: resource: skip IRQ override on AMD Zen platforms
IRQ override isn't needed on modern AMD Zen systems.
There's an active low keyboard IRQ on AMD Ryzen 6000 and it will stay
this way on newer platforms. This IRQ override breaks keyboards for
almost all Ryzen 6000 laptops currently on the market.
Skip this IRQ override for all AMD Zen platforms because this IRQ
override is supposed to be a workaround for buggy ACPI DSDT and we can't
have a long list of all future AMD CPUs/Laptops in the kernel code.
If a device with buggy ACPI DSDT shows up, a separated list containing
just them should be created.I did have plenty of freezes on my old 2500u machine though. Was very disappointed. Thankfully, those days are long gone
The reason I'm asking, according to a Lenovo talk from DebConf22 [0], the guy said it takes some time for patches to reach upstream, but with Fedora and Ubuntu they have some connections to shortcut some patches before they reach upstream.
Sad news is, according to my test, the latest kernel Fedora 36 offered, which is kernel-5.18.16-200.fc36.x86_64, does not come with the keyboard (IRQ override) fix.
Another thing is the mce errors, or more specifically, errors similar to:
[ 332.990256] mce: [Hardware Error]: Machine check events logged
[ 332.990267] [Hardware Error]: Corrected error, no action required.
[ 332.990276] [Hardware Error]: CPU:0 (19:44:1) MC15_STATUS[Over|CE|MiscV|AddrV|-|-|SyndV|CECC|-|-|-]: 0xdc204000000c011b
[ 332.990299] [Hardware Error]: Error Addr: 0x00000000efcf8bc0
[ 332.990304] [Hardware Error]: IPID: 0x0000009600050f00, Syndrome: 0x000001ff0a240701
[ 332.990312] [Hardware Error]: Unified Memory Controller Ext. Error Code: 12
[ 332.990316] [Hardware Error]: cache level: L3/GEN, tx: GEN, mem-tx: RD
Of course, those were just the most annoying two. There are many smaller problems such as: 1) Screen won't turn off after timeout if an external display is plugged in via HDMI, 2) Linux S2 (Suspend-to-RAM) never wakes up, 3) Builtin mic don't work, 4) Fingerprint scanner crashes when you put your finger on.
I guess it takes time for those engineers in Lenovo to address those problems, and Lenovo is not a Linux-friendly company (they are more like a Linux-meh company).
Framework on the other hand, cares about Linux more. Sadly they don't operate in my country :(
- Kernel logs show that the GPU driver crashes from time to time. When it happens the screen freezes for a few seconds but recovers.
- HVEC hardware decoder gives green artifacts on VLC using VA-API.
- It seems not to support advanced power management, on battery the CPU will happily boost to 4.7 GHz which in my opinion makes little sense. AMD has been steadily pushing work related to power management so I expect it to improve. As it stands total power consumption on battery averages 5.1 W.
The other tool you could check out (and use in conjunction or instead of ryzenadj) is a tool called auto-cpufreq: https://github.com/AdnanHodzic/auto-cpufreq - it lets you switch governor and turbo/clock speeds automatically base on battery if you're just looking for a simpler way to set that.
5.19 has a bunch of amdgpu fixes that might fix some things https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dri-devel/2022-April/... but sadly there are often also sometimes regressions/weird bugs: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues?page=90&sort...
Of course, the next question is the potentially asymmetric RAM on the ThinkPads with one channel soldered and one SO-DIMM slot, e.g. the 48 GB version. Will it use dual-channel until ~32 GB and then single-channel? How will the GPU perform, e.g. will it use only one slot in such a configuration. So many questions...
Not saying they won't turn out to be, but they are still young considering the space they are in.
Similar holds for any other hw maker that is only starting out!
I've bought hardware before though from companies I'd never heard of, and either never received it or when I did it was much poorer quality than advertised or was so long after the order that I'd nearly forgotten about it. Would hate for that to happen with xcalibyte
That’s not true in any way?
And what does “Everything is in one chip” even mean? Because the memory certainly isn’t, it’s soldered on the package but it’s not part of the package, it just doesn’t take additional room on the main board. And there are a bunch of other chips on the mainboard
Finally, it’s pretty much just following mobile / phone chip SoC design, so any other manufacturer could do the same, if they wanted to create a giant and expensive SOC.
And I want to be really clear on the “giant and expensive” part: the M1 family is the sort of scale you usually see on giant workstation or server chips, the M1 Pro has 33.7 billion transistors, that’s more than a Threadripper 5995WX, a $6500 64 cores CPU. The M1 is just short of the 5950X’s transistor count (16 billions to 19.2), the M2 is above (~20).
I guess he's mainly thinking of GPU, which isn't unique. But there's not that many SoCs with that amount of power in one SoC. So it's close to competing with alternatives with discrete GPUs, which does increase power consumption.
I believe it has integrated Flash controller too, which is very unique for a laptop/desktop chip, no?
> Because the memory certainly isn’t, it’s soldered on the package but it’s not part of the package, it just doesn’t take additional room on the main board. And there are a bunch of other chips on the mainboard
It's on the package so it can be as close to the SoC as possible. That decreases the capacitance of the traces, which decreases power consumption.
It's not stacked on top of the SoC, which might have been even better (but harder to cool), but it's close.
> Finally, it’s pretty much just following mobile / phone chip SoC design, so any other manufacturer could do the same, if they wanted to create a giant and expensive SOC.
Uh, yeah, anyone could copy the M1 for a laptop/desktop product. But they haven't exactly done that yet have they? That's kind of the point?
> the M1 family is the sort of scale you usually see on giant workstation or server chips
Yeah, which again, almost never packs the kind of functionality Apple does into the M1.
With that many transistors, on such an advanced process, you're going to have a lot of leakage currents, so Apple must have put an impressive amount of work into power management.
I mean, it's not just about being an SoC with lots of things packed within the chip or extremely close to the cheap (memory). No. It's apparent that they've focused on across the entire design process. Even the choice of ARM factors into that (fewer transistors needed for instruction decoding). But I wouldn't say the original comment is completely wrong.
This isn't true AFAICT.
Cezanne SOC topology: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/ix6FrojFD7anKypadF2vKM.jpg
Rembrandt SOC topology: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/8wnuFCokmeHjESuSbzYWMJ.jpg
Even on the desktop processors, there are onboard lanes dedicated to the NVMe itself, and the entire processor (including NVMe) is capable of booting without a supporting chipset at all - the "X300 chipset" is actually not a chipset at all, it is just using the SOC itself without an external chipset, and you do not lose NVMe functionality.
Not sure if you are using some really weird meaning of "NVMe controller" that doesn't match what anyone else means?
(unless it doesn't - eMMC doesn't normally have a flash controller and you just do direct writes to the flash cells... as do some IOFusion PCIe cards that are just flash directly attached to PCIe with no controller. Sometimes that functionality is just software-based. Flash cards (eg microSD) usually also do not have a flash controller directly either.)
Anyway, it's true though that Apple does push the flash controller functionality into the SOC while AMD does not, Apple implements their SSD in a non-standard fashion, that's why it's not compatible with off-the-shelf drives. The flash is just flash on a board, I don't even think it's NVMe compatible at all either.
So if you want to be maximally pedantic... neither does Apple implement onboard NVMe controllers, just flash controllers ;)
The above also applies to eMMC and UFS storage as found in devices like smartphones.
pretty sure that's false as well... can an X300 system boot a NVMe drive? I'd assume yes. It does that with a UEFI which lives... where? Oh right, on the chip.
Most NVMe SSDs don't provide legacy option roms anymore either.
No, UEFI is firmware stored on a flash chip on the motherboard, usually connected to the CPU through the LPC bus. CPUs do not have any nonvolatile storage onboard (unless you count eFuses).
[Edit] My understanding is, that a lot of power efficiency and performance comes from the large cache - not only ARM - which is more efficient than main memory and faster - also see AMD X3D. (per core AFAIK) Ryzen 7 L1/L2: 32/512, M1 L1/L2 192/3072
It's like a constant drilling sound that gets into your brain and makes thoughts flow like through the mud in the full sunlight.
For that reason, despite that I don't like Apple and I am not a fan of macOS, I decided to buy M1 MBP.
This is a lifechanging experience, that laptop. You can even put it on low power mode and won't lose much perfomance and it is absolutely silent. Even if you run a prolonged heavy task and fans kick in, you will barely hear them (ha hope it won't get worse over time and that there will be a way to disconnect them if that is going to be a problem).
Oh and no coil whine. Even if my XPS 15 miraculously don't have fans on, you can be sure their noise is inconveniently replaced by distinct coil whine that is just as annoying as fans.
I am probably going to buy another macbook, this time the Air one just for leisure and learning.
I also feel like it is worth mentioning that 12th gen laptop is priced ~ $150 over the 11th gen.
If you're coding against an online build system and 11 last an extra hour (or whatever), it's a no-brainer to stick with the old one.
In the near future you might if you install linux.
Using box64 for amd64 translation and steam proton for windows translation if necessary.
To be honest the last time I used a mac was I think a decade ago so they're just so unknown to me at the moment, but everyone else seems to love them so I'm quite tempted
You can't dual boot so you can't natively run the game you're working on. The graphics are integrated so you can't test on a PC GPU. VR dev doesn't work at all.
Lots of small things but if you also have a PC its not so bad unless you need some library that just doesn't work.
* League of Legends
* Civilization 6
* Stellaris, EU4, etc.
* Minecraft
* Factorio
But if you aren’t picky about specific games, there’s something from every category that runs on m1.
Just ran Phoronix Linux kernel compilation test (defconf), I get 74.68 sec on my laptop, on par with desktop Intel Core i7-12700K, but I can carry my "desktop" around. :) In comparison, Apple M2 result is 416 sec, AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX is 103 sec. It's not much, but it's compound gains if you compile and test a lot.
They're just tools ffs, no need to romanticize or stereotype them.
I wish framework would do an AMD laptop. But Linus put them in touch with AMD and they done nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYc922ntnKM
> source community an amd variant might be
> a way around this but in spite of me
> making introductions nearly a year ago i
> haven't received any update from either
> side so consider this a public call out
For example if the Lenovo is a P15 and you’re comparing it to a Dell Latitude, then yeah duh.
Both Lenovos are rock solid, not laggy or stuttery.
But I had a Dell XPS 15 (2020) model from work, I gave it back because idling in Windows made the fans spin...
I got a newer Dell XPS 15 (2022) for work (new job) and its great, but its stuttery and the fans spin under light loads. (the screen is amazing tho, i love the screen)
(We have around 10 assorted Dell laptops from all the different models and we don’t like the XPS much by comparison, and wouldn’t ever buy another. Aside from thermal issues, for whatever reason the XPS drivers are very beta and always crashing compared with the Precision series which is just rock solid)
Issue is Intel tries to race to halt which demonstrably saves more power on average. The power consumption of your chip probably is some intrinsic quality related to how the package and die are set up.
I want a portable desktop, speed I can bring with me without lugging my 35lb liquid cooler setup with its 4x140mm radiator.
I want something compact and sexy but insanely fast when I “dock” it
Power isn't really an issue - I'm never far from an outlet, and I could carry an external battery in a backpack pocket if it really bothered me.
I have docker-desktop for the things I need it for - building the odd linux native image, or running testcontainers for postgres, same as we do when building on linux - and it works great.
But for the day to day stuff, no.
On Intel I needed 32mb for all the containers at work, with a fairly modest CPU, but I expect my own projects to be a bit lighter.
None of the reviews are useful. All useless junk about exporting 8k videos.
Often, I use 11-18G, rarely I use 20-50G.
Definitely go for M2 Air if you like the form factor (I prefer the M1 Air’s form factor though).
I have heard anecdotal reports of those on 8GB machines facing the spinning beachball from time to time. It's never happened to me.
I run Linux in Parallels with 16gb allocated and it runs great at around 50% memory pressure. MacOS compresses the memory that Linux doesn't use and it runs amazing.
We have slightly different use cases as I prefer developing in Linux as opposed to MacOS, but I'd imagine you would be fine depending on how actually memory intensive your containers are?
The thermal throttling the reviews complain about isn't a problem for me, though I prioritize power usage over raw power since I often run it off of solar.
Oh wait, it already is but you don’t. I routinely engage in comment sections where a highly juiced up desktop CPU is derided for it’s “heat output” and other such nonsense.
This can be done application-specific, so when you launch a big game or something, it'll spin cores up to max frequency, for example.
There's a very simple menu system to scale up and down the core frequencies, and to select application execution profiles. It comes with internal temp and voltage monitors, and built-in stress tests to benchmark.
My main tips are to remove thermal boost, remove core scaling (the heterogeneous frequencies it assigns when only a few cores are active vs all), and to cap all cores to 3-4Ghz, depending on the quality of your passive cooling.
No bios adjustments needed, no restarts required, and built-in watchdog to revert if things go poorly. Really nice.
Recent, huge bug though: On some platforms, it requires disabling visualization, which limits use of the WSL. That had better be fixed ASAP, it's a big deal.
Lighten up a bit. :)
That should be an easy way to do an apples to apples comparison and not require shipping any hardware.
As there are compilation units, translation of addresses, linking, etc.
Memory AND storage takes important part. While CPU might be "idle" in some parts.
For big projects especially, memory and storage speed would be important for proper benchmarking.
The scale Intel has in manufacturing mobile CPUs is still unmatched.
The 6800U is only a 5% efficiency increase over 5800U, I agree that the GPU is _much_ better though.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Efficiency-R...
Here are the results: https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108785771608278574
Intel didn’t change CPU generations from 6000-10000 series, they’re all the same generation. Just because the years advance and they refresh their products with increased product numbers doesn’t mean that they’re a new generation of products.
The number is only a product number that shows the approximate year of release for these mixed product lines.
Because of this, you can’t say things like “compared to the previous generation” any more. 12xxx is two generations newer than 11xxx. 10xxx is the same generation as 9xxx.
https://hardwarecanucks.com/wp-content/uploads/Intel-NUC-9-E...
Just in case anyone's interested in making their own though, I've seen a few DIY trackpoint projects over the years (mostly on custom mechs, not laptop keyboards though). Here's a writeup on one: https://edryd.org/posts/tp-mk/
Not anymore, they are gone with Gen 9 :(
Are those supposed to be any good?
I have an EB Gen8 with one, but I find it horrendous. I'd like to know whether it's because I have no idea how to use it, or if my Linux setup is broken, or if the hardware is actually shitty.
And yes, there are DIY TrackPoint keyboards, I have a TEX Shinobi.
HP Dev One keyboard (no middle mouse button): https://media.graphassets.com/TdgqLuYTbeGM2oI8PWsV
ThinkPad Carbon X1 keyboard (with middle mouse button): https://www.lenovo.com/medias/lenovo-laptop-thinkpad-x1-carb...
A keyboard with a pointing stick and no middle mouse button is a waste. Hopefully, any pointing stick keyboard for the Framework Laptop will include this button.
That is just wrong. You only say that you don't like the default sensitivity/speed. Increase it a bit and you get the complete opposite.
My biggest frustration with remote work so far is the corporate fixation with laptops. For some types of work, performance isn’t just a convenience, but weeks of lost productivity. If the difference between the 11th and 12th generation of Intel in your laptop really moves the needle for you, you’re using the wrong form factor to do your work.
I have no idea about power consumption yet (the laptop is a couple weeks old). On light load, the laptop easily crosses the 8h mark but it won't, certainly, when grinding rust compiles. The M1's power efficiency is on a different league.
1) its simple to repair or upgrade. If Dell's design is also simple to work on then that's great!
2) A culture of providing replacement and upgrade parts affordably to the end user. In addition to the I/O modules and replacement parts, so far framework has the upgradeable mainboard, an upgraded top cover with more rigidity, and an improved hinge kit.
On a slightly different note, this is again a good example of how Intel continues to oneup AMD through its business and management practices, even when AMD has better products. Ofcourse AMD can't be imitate Intel in spending money and undercutting them (sometimes illegally), but they should certainly try to copy some of the decent practices of Intel, like for e.g. supporting hardware manufacturers by offering reference designs. China has many Intel tablets because of this. It is easier to develop hardware with Intel processors because Intel offers more support (free and paid). Something AMD needs to focus on more and fix. They really need to work on their PR and sales tactic.
> 12th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-1280P (with *64GB* of RAM) 110.77
> % Improvement 102.60%
Are they for real?
The performance benefits of the higher-end parts seem dubious.
XP11.11 (2018) is ancient, current release is from late last year - but more importantly XP12 is coming very soon and going to be vulkan/metal only, and afaik even the Xe intel gpus are lacking drivers.
It loses on MT but that's because we don't have the M2 Pro/Max yet. M2 is just the entry-level SoC being compared to Intel's very best.
Also, try running the benchmarks unplugged. Intel's performance will instantly drop by 25 - 50%. M2 will stay exactly the same.
M2 is faster in ST, GPU, AI, and video editing. It's slower on MT. To me, the M2 is overall faster. Especially when unplugged which will cause Alder Lake to significantly drop in performance.
What is your definition of faster?
At least in a laptop, it's not just when you unplug the laptop that performance drops. You've also got to have enough volume in the laptop to shoehorn in a major cooling system if you're going to keep the P series processors from throttling.
For instance, Lenovo's thin and light ThinkPad X1 Yoga has two fans but still throttles:
>Unfortunately, the laptop got uncomfortably hot in its Best performance mode during testing, even with light workloads.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/review-lenovos-think...
Or the Dell XPS 13 Plus:
>the XPS 13 Plus’ fan was really struggling here because, boy oh boy, did this thing get hot.
After a few hours of regular use (which, in my case, is a dozen or so Chrome tabs with Slack running over top), this laptop was boiling. I was getting uncomfortable keeping my hands on the palm rests and typing on the keyboard. Putting it on my lap was off the table.
https://www.theverge.com/23284276/dell-xps-13-plus-intel-202...
Intel's P series chips in a device without a massive heat sink and fans can't hit those high clocks that their performance benchmarks rely on.
No surprises there. Apple also firmware locks the swappable storage modules on the recent Mac Studio: https://www.engadget.com/mac-studio-ssd-software-lock-211410... No repairs or upgrades for their customers.
Whatever AMD and Intel have right now are completely irrelevant, and I say that as one of the biggest haters of OS X there is.
I'm not trading in my workstation for a Mac Studio or whatever, though, because I'm guessing AMD's 5nm chips will probably perform even better than the M1/M2. Plus games. Games are nice.
You are commenting on a thread discussing just that, so yeah it kinda matters.
It seems we've truly reached the apex of disposable consumer culture, where even our most powerful technology is something we just throw in the trash and re-purchase when something fails or newer technology becomes available.
I can only hope that companies like Framework can reverse some of this trend. Because as it stands, our already unsustainable culture has gotten to the point where it seems folks no longer remember that anything else is possible, or why we might want to think differently.
But at the same time, the chips that Framework uses waste valuable electricity and don't perform particularly well. That's just where Intel is at right now. That is likely to change, and Framework is interesting from the standpoint of "when Intel gets their act together, look at our balance of performance and sustainability". That's not where they're at right now, though. Not Frameworks' fault; nobody is selling mobile arm64 chips that have remotely competitive performance. It's the late 1970s again; hopefully the clones show up to kill "IBM" again.
Realistically, people are burning the rainforest to sell pictures of smoking monkeys and burn dead dinosaurs to drive to get coffee every morning. Recycling your laptop's screen every 5 years is not really making a dent into our current planet-killing habits. It feels good to help in a small way, but what feels good is not necessarily meaningful.
I pretty well guarantee you the small amount of energy saved by operating an M1 is more than made up for by the cost of manufacturing and shipping a new laptop every few years as part of the Apple replacement cycle.
> Recycling your laptop's screen every 5 years
You might want to do a little research about what's involved in upgrading a framework mainboard. Far far more than just the screen is "recycled" when upgrading a machine like that.
And that's ignoring the ability to reuse or resell components outside of the Framework chassis. I fully expect to turn my old mainboard into a server when the time comes to eventually upgrade it.
> It feels good to help in a small way, but what feels good is not necessarily meaningful.
This is a classic thought-killing argument intended to invalidate any kind of individual action or intervention. "Well, what little thing I do has no meaningful impact in the big picture, so why bother."
The answer to that is simple: Government needs to pass laws mandating right to repair. It's long past time that companies like Apple be forced to do the right thing, because it's clear they're not going to do it themselves, particularly when consumers have apparently convinced themselves that their individual choices don't matter.
The main advantage of the M2s is probably battery life.
Also, Cinebench is not optimized for ARM instructions.
If you are buying a computer to use Cinema4D or gaming, Intel and and AMD will be better. If you're buying a computer to do just about everything else, then Apple is better.