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Comment by ortusdux | Hacker News Reader

WLAN sensing. Off the shelf mesh wifi systems are capable of sensing people reliably. This includes qty, position, motion, & gestures.

Here is the IEEE spec due for approval in a year or two: https://www.ieee802.org/11/Reports/tgbf_update.htm

I have mixed feelings on the tech. The home security implications are amazing, and things like automatic fall detection for the elderly would be a literal lifesaver. Small business could gain great insight into customer behavior.

On the other hand, it's just creepy. How do you prevent the next apartment over from spying through your walls? Is the hotel wifi going to recognize and catalog physical activity between two people?

Anyway, Plume already makes a home security system that utilizes the tech.

https://support.plume.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043364893

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Most big retailers use this tech already to track how customers walk through their stores.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264822934_Mining_of... https://www.aislelabs.com/blog/2022/04/04/combining-camera-a...

There's lots of other examples, this was just a quick google search.

I remember interviewing for shopping centre chain (mall). They had this in 2018 already. It had an accuracy of +/- 1m but they had ways to normalise it to the layout of the store. Didn't require them to even be on the network just have their wifi on.

They not only used it to price their storefronts but also they also could tell their renters which parts of the store had higher traffic. Meaning they would know what sells better, where people go from which section. It's literally web analytics but irl.

This specific tech - WLAN sensing - tracks the signal disruptions caused by the water in our bodies. This makes it quite different than all previous techs that require the target to have a broadcasting device or other ping-able tracker. Reportedly, even pets are easily identifiable.

I had no idea about this and the implications are truly terrifying and amazing.

Its not just wifi at home the entire world is now a big mesh network. So theoretically it means literally everything everywhere which has wifi coverage can now be tracked with amazing accuracy. Quite possibly the most scary/invasive tech.

meh, the FBI, CIA, and all big tech already know you are at home... does it really matter if they know you are on the couch or at your dining room table?

It may give a means to triangulate _what_ you're doing while on the couch or at the dining room table.

"Nothing to hide" may be true, until someone passes an immoral law.

> On the other hand, it's just creepy. How do you prevent the next apartment over from spying through your walls? Is the hotel wifi going to recognize and catalog physical activity between two people?

I would imagine you just take the "country/private club" model and extend it out.

e.g. a private club enforces limits on who can access the club and you get more "privacy" since the other people in the club also had to pass through those limits.

In this case, the club/hotel/builder of your house can say "the walls are all Faraday rated so that you get audio, visual and EM privacy when you stay here"

I can't imagine most people are going to put up with their cellphones not working in exchange for the privacy

Not the person you're replying to, but if you're willing to do that to your walls, you're probably willing to pay for an external antenna and internal transmitter

Well, this is something I completely did not expect and now I am going down the rabbit hole of how this works...

Thanks!

Welp, welcome to the surveillance state, everyone!

What is qty? Quantity of people? Quality of signal? Something else?

> This includes qty, position, motion, & gestures.

Wow. That's terrifying.

oh my god

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