Ten years with a Citroën C6 (2021) | Hacker News Reader

Ten years with a Citroën C6 (2021)

driventowrite.com

112 pointsKaibeezy79 comments

From part 4: "Since becoming my hobby rather than sole means of transport..."

I was listening to an interview with Ray Magliozzi, the author of Car Talk, and he was asked what it would take to do his show, but about bicycles. The answer was, you'd need to make the bikes more complex and prone to failure.

> you'd need to make the bikes more complex and prone to failure.

Also much more expensive, so that people are forced to consider doing these complex repairs themselves, or hiring mechanics, instead of just junking it.

(Yes, there are many stupidly expensive bikes, both for sports racing and hipsterism. But those bikes are not bought by most regular people who just want a means of transport, and it’s most regular people who would be the target audience of such a bike talk show.)

now that ebikes are becoming common, I'd say we're getting closer to an automotive attitude. nobody is going to junk an ebike, even an entry-level 800 EUR one

One aspect still missing (to create a bike talk show) is that e-bikes seems not to break down that often, nor are the repairs that expensive that you are sorely tempted to do it yourself.

The C6 was honestly a bit of a disappointment. Yes, it felt like a last hurrah back to the glory days of Citroën with the DS and the CX, but it still fell short. The C6 only used the hydropneumatic system for suspension. Steering and brakes were replaced with ordinary systems. And while it gave as smooth a ride as any classic hydropneumatic Citroën, it always felt like it didn't quite get there.

But the biggest sin of all, and even Top Gear mentioned this, is the lack of leg room in the backseat. Even my Xantia has better leg room there than the C6. And maintenance wise, it's a nightmare. It's nowhere as rock-solid as the XM or as "simple" as a DS. While it's probably a good investment, considering its few numbers (only 23k were made, I believe), and the fact that it's interesting, it's probably best to mostly keep it in a garage for one or two decades.

I really wanted to be excited about the C6, but it's so much further down my Citroën shopping list than even a Dyane 6 (and I'm mostly into Citroën for the hydropneumatic suspension).

I also had a Xantia at some point and the hidraulic had a complete failure while doing a 360 downhill in the sierras here in Portugal. It was mighty scary as everything failed: suspension, steering and brakes (and I got the dreaded red stop light on the dash). Thankfully I was going very slowly and there was a long straight to help me stop. I think having a separate system for the breaks is a good thing.

I have to add that I was very happy with that car and my riding experience mirrors the article even though it was not a C6.

The advantage of the combined suspension and braking meant that the car would adjust its brake pressure based on load. A heavier loaded car would thus brake harder with the same amount of pedal pressure.

The handbrake is still entirely mechanic, and is your emergency brake in case the brakes fail (the same would be the case on a regular car). Fortunately, I've never had that experience yet, and while I've heard the stories, I am still convinced the combined steering, braking and suspension system is a mechanical superior system, even if it requires more maintenance. I'd concede, that from a maintenance's perspective, it's an inferior system. Which is probably why Citroën abandoned it.

My renault handbrake is electronically actuated, motor driven. It’s got all of the reliability of Renault electrical systems.

Mechanically, it’s pretty solid. THere are wear issues with the front suspension, but that’s as much Ireland’s obsession with speed bumps as anything else. And there was one issue with the shared hydraulic clutch/ braking fluid system failing.

But electronics? Wiring harness? Windows? Horrible. The driver's window only properly works in France. Sunroof sticks open, passenger window only goes down unless triple click force locking everything. Which is lovely when driving in 32c into a thunderstorm. (Ac? Long gone). Rear lights have totally gone a couple of times.

> The driver's window only properly works in France.

I'm sorry... what? :D

Drivers window would either: not work at all, only go down unless triple clicked, be reversed (push down to go up, et vice versa), only go down and then only go up (current behavior).

One week into an extended trip to France, it started working fine. It then continued to work fine until a couple of days after we returned to Ireland.

This car is an adventure, rarely completely comfortable, but it has only stranded us once. (The clutch/brake thing). But it fits 5 people + dog, tows a trailer, isn’t too horrible for mileage (~35-40mpg without trailer, 30 with / 6-6.5 l/100km vs 7.9) and is paid for.

(And helpfully, the passenger window now is refusing to go up. I blame Belgium, but we’ll see if that gets better with a passage through France tomorrow.). I tell you, there is no way you could ever get me to buy a Renault electric car.

Probably condensation in there somewhere, and it dries up in a less humid climate.

Maybe. But some things work when super locking that don’t work otherwise. The France thing was funny, but there are far more variations in the electrical system than can be explained by just condensation.

Sounds like climate change can be good, at least for Irish cars.

I used the handbrake to stop in that occasion and it just reduces speed and is very hard to stop the car with it. I used the gear box and turned it off for a hard stop. The mechanic that got me out of this drove the car downhill for a couple of km just using the gear box and the handbrake to negotiate the terrain, that was a scary ride.

If you ever smell something like rubber burning after you do some difficult parking with lots of turns then have the hidraulic pump looked into. This is what happenend to me, it had these smells every now and then that I could not identify until it failed and then the cause was clear (something wore off in the pump, sorry I can't remember specifics anymore).

I feel like the last uniquely French model release was the Renault Avantime which did not set the world on fire sales wise, sadly.

The Citroën Ami would like to disagree, it really couldn’t be anything but French. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_%28electric%2...

I loved the Avantime, never had one, but wanted to one day. Top gear or grand tour (don't remember which one) really destroyed it in one of their show, so maybe it's for the best that I never wasted the money.

As Ed Bolian put it once - this sort of thing is the true test of your automotive obsession. When presented with a car like this, which undoubtedly has a several pages long list of fixes and items that needed replacing, do you then:

1) realize that this car is going to be a money pit, it kept breaking down for years and it will very likely continue doing so

2) decide that this is actually great - look at this massive list of repairs! Surely it means the car is well maintained and will serve you trouble free for years.

(that's the video in question - highly entertaining imho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUXm72vyXOE )

I'm the guy who wrote the article on Driven to Write. I'm delighted it's sparked further discussion and debate here.

Interestingly, I have started to investigate whether it's possible to convert it to an EV. There's a company in the UK which has developed and shown an EV conversion for the DS which set my mind wondering. It'll be stupidly expensive but might just create the best looking EV this side of the converted DS.

Thanks for your time.

OP here. I found your article after once again being dragged down the C6 rabbit hole. There was a comment on my earlier post re Jacques Pepin’s love of French cars, and off I went.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32368624

I was very close to buying a C6 after my Xantia perished a couple of years ago Found a winner with a manual transmission on a C6 forum, but got sniped somehow. Ended up with a German midsize estate, which is highly competent, and has a stick so it’s reasonably satisfying. I don’t look back at it every time I walk away though.

I’m sure you’re aware of Neil Young’s project involving vintage Lincoln behemoths. This was a decade ago at least. Ended in tragedy, IIRC, but I believe it inspired others to re-look at what vintage cars could make good conversion candidates.

It's true that there are a few manual C6s. I think they all came with the 2.2L four pot diesel, which did an OK job under the bonnet/ hood of the C6, but change the wafting nature of the car and came without the semi-intelligent AMVAR management of the suspension.

I'm under no illusion that the C6 is an imperfect interpretation of Citroen's prior oleopneumatic mastery - I simply was not brave enough at the time to go for a DS, or a CX or XM for that matter, all of which I believe would be more true to how a large oleopneumatic Cit should be. Particularly disappointing is that PSA did not see to fit the Xantia Activa's 'active' suspension - that would have been one heck of a car. As it is, I know of people who put 3.0L V6 engines in the bays of UK-spec Xantia Activas to create true sheep in wolf's clothing, cars that scare Porsches and Ferraris on track-days, so I am assured.

Right, the stick went on the base C6. A tradeoff for sure.

I thought the Activa Xantias all had the 3.0? What I don’t understand is how the “real” sports car companies are happy to let the Xantia sit at the top of the moose test ranking for decades! It’s not an embarrassment?

My other current car is a similar deep sleeper, although on a different aspect of performance. Suits me fine.

The UK only received four-pot turbos with 150PS. You could get a 3.0L V6 in other markets - definitely France.

Hey, if you are interested in noughties French car design, I have posted a piece today on the Renault Megane II, which includes a link to a series of articles co-written by Patrick Le Quement on a great design discussion website called 'Design Field Trip'.

The article can be found on this link : https://driventowrite.com/2022/08/16/unforgotten-the-renault.... I hope I am not offending anyone related to this site by including this link.

The C6 looks to me like a great design template for an electric Citroën. They always looked like coming from the future - a future that could be now.

I think this is the biggest problem with EVs. Manufacturers are trying to make them look too futuristic. Why can't they look like normal cars?

First of all, I would wonder what you consider a "normal car"? The older Citroën cars shown in the article were all "normal". But indeed ahead of their time. The shape of "normal" cars, which I assume are ICE cars for you has very much varied over the decades. In the late 80ies and early 90ies there were quite a few models designed strictly for good aerodynamics, later on the aerodynamic efficiency unfortunately dropped quite a bit. Recent years car designs are not very good in my eyes. To answer the question: a lot of the traditional car design comes from designing around combustion engines. They need cooling and more space than an electric motor. See for example the return to rear wheel drive, as this makes most sense with a tiny electric engine. The huge front space is basically only needed for crash safety. At least some cars offer a good frunk. Of course the shift to electric cars will lead to different designs. Aerodynamic becomes much more important, no big engine, but instead a large battery, but at differen places in the car. And of course a good bit of marketing. Beyond the technical needs, you want a new generation of cars also to look "new". Good design though combines new looks with the new technological requirements.

> I would wonder what you consider a "normal car"

I think GP means that many EVs are visually designed to explicitly advertise they're EVs in extremely obvious, sometimes tacky ways by overusing some pop sci fi tropes (electricity is blue, polygons are futuristic...)

Goes to the sound too, Renault Zoe emits a retrofuturistic drone that evokes all kinds of Star Wars hoverbikes and crafts.

Some may look nice right now, challenging current mainstream design trends, some may not but turn out to look nice someday. Others are just annoying because they scream "look look I'm an EV" either for status symbol or brand recognition, which feels very artificial/superficial.

>>Goes to the sound too, Renault Zoe emits a retrofuturistic drone that evokes all kinds of Star Wars hoverbikes and crafts.

I mean, that comes from a simple design question - how do you warn pedestrians in an audible way that one of these is nearby? My Volvo XC60 PHEV doesn't make any sound when being driven in EV mode, and people just don't hear it coming. You can pull up right behind someone(pedestrian) in a parking lot and they are completely oblivious there is a car behind them. Of course sound isn't the only thing pedestrians should rely on, but it is an actual problem - electric cars are just completely silent.

My Volkswagen e-Up has a sound generator and it emits sound like a small ICE, but not quite - it's like uncanny valley of sound.

Is that better than ZOE's futurisic sounds? I really don't know. But I do believe they should emit something.

It's now mandatory in most developed markets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sound...

There's plenty normal-looking EVs around. We have a Volkwagen e-Up and you can only tell it's electric by looking at the badge. It looks like a normal Up in every other aspect.

Same with the likes of the Kia Niro, Hyundai Ioniq(not the Ioniq 5, I mean the sedan), I'd argue that the Audi E-Tron, E-Tron Q4, E-Tron GT, Porsche Taycan - they all look like completely normal cars. If you told me they have a combusion engine inside I'd believe you.

I’d pay stupid amounts of money for a combination of an 1950s design with modern EV tech&safety. The fins, the two-color paint job, etc.

There are actually a couple of companies doing EV conversions for classic cars. Safety is an issue so, and safety is also what will make a pure 50s visiual desogn impossible today.

Most of the design language that I yearn for has zero effect on safety. I don't want my car to look like an aggressive feline animal when viewed from the front, but essentially all modern cars do. I want my rear lights to be shaped like, well, lights, not like abstract paintings. Etc

The vehicles in The Fifth Element had a retro theme, but of course they flew.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cars_of_the_The_Fifth_E...