Ask HN: Is living in NYC worth it? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Is living in NYC worth it?

50 pointstempsy83 comments

I live in SF but location flexible and considering making a move to NYC.

Biggest issue is obviously cost. I’m shocked even living in what is considered a high cost of living area by the rent prices I’m seeing in Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn. I’m seeing fairly basic 1 bedroom apartments being listed that are $5k+ not including utilities or brokers fees which can be as high as 15% of the annual rent, and most likely not rent stabilized meaning they can raise the rent however much they want after the lease ends.

Outside of rent the cost of entertainment and eating out is not surprisingly on the higher side relative to other cities though I would not say it’s as wildly expensive as the rent is.

The upside is that there’s an energy to the city that is lacking here, and you don’t need a car to get to most places within the city (though to be fair I don’t have a car in SF either).

For people who have recently considered moving or have been living there do you feel it’s worth it considering the rent/housing situation on top of everything else (food, groceries, entertainment, taxation, etc)?

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I’ve been in NYC 18 years (went to college here) minus a 1 year stint in Miami. I grew up in Atlanta. I’m married with two kids under three. I absolutely love it here…

You either love NYC or you hate it and thankfully you will know where you fall within 1-2 years of moving. It can be intense.

I personally love the energy, diversity, ambition, serendipity and grit. I love being able to walk and discover something new every time, no matter how often I’ve walked the path. I love how much it is constantly changing. I love the museums, parks, theaters and art galleries. I’ve traveled all over the world and no city compares for me (Hong Kong is my second love).

If you are a homebody, this is not the right place for you. If you don’t enjoy meeting new people, likely not the place for you. If you thrive off of nature, hiking, surfing, playing golf, this is likely not the place for you.

The physical quality of life in nyc is inferior in almost every way, it’s the intellectual and social quality of life that keeps millions tied to it.

Happy to answer any questions.

Edit: Final item to add, in nyc there is no shame to having roommates until you enter a committed relationship and move in together. Even couples have roommates. To outsiders it seems weird but it’s a necessity here.

Cool to see this sentiment. Hong Kong is my first love, but the only other city that had a similarly energetic vibe to me was New York.

Agree on most counts except the homebody thing. I'm mostly a homebody and moved here to NYC 8 years ago and love it. I like that I can just go on a walk and get a coffee or groceries or something, and just the liveliness of all the people out and about gives me some sort of energy. Other cities (US at least) feel desolate.

I still do normal social stuff sometimes, and yeah there are exceptionally great opportunities for that here. But even knowing they're there waiting for me when I want to do them has value to me on the 90% of days I'm just at home.

Yeah, I would second this: I'm a generally social person, but I spend plenty of weekends alone by choice. It's not uncommon to see people just go out and walk in NYC; I like to walk through my part of Brooklyn on Saturdays and make a general circuit of all of the farmers' markets, watch the chess games, &c.

I suppose that's not exactly the same thing as a homebody, but just to say that you can live and thrive in this city without being an extreme type-A extrovert.

I used to do walks in Nyc and sf regularly when I lived there. I think the SF walk was a lot more interesting to be honest. The views are amazing, the architecture is always interesting, and there are weird shops throughout (note this was SF 20 years ago). NYC was interesting but it lacked the “oh wow I will just keep going until I hit water” drive for me. Also I found doing walks in Brooklyn can be more scary than Manhattan - I did a walk through Brownsville and it did not go well.

I actually won’t dispute this — I spent an afternoon walking around SF a few years ago, and it is a consistently beautiful city in a way that NYC is not. There are beautiful parts of NYC, but the city as a whole doesn’t have a unified architectural theme or street culture.

That being said, it’s a much larger city, and you can walk an entire SF’s worth without leaving Brooklyn. The things that I like during my walks are maybe a little bit more muted than architecture and making my way to a waterfront: I like seeing the streetvendors, chess players, people picnicking and, particular to Brooklyn, how the streets have been cut up by two centuries of transit changes.

I lived in SF for 10 years and recently moved to Manhattan. I feel like there's a lot more stigma associated with having roommates in NYC or LA than in SF, at least among the yuppie millennial crowd.

Here's my thoughts as a NYC lifer:

NYC is a very, very good city to live in if you know how to take advantage of it. Others in the comments have already said why: arts, culture, entertainment, nightlife, and the sheer culture of the city. If you know how to unlock it, the city can do nearly anything you want. It's also (surprisingly) a nice city to bike around these days, and has some of the best regional rail in the country for local traveling. New York itself is a beautiful and (IMO) somewhat underappreciated state, and it's easy to get to much of the state from the city. It's also much more than just Manhattan and (nowadays) Brooklyn: the Bronx, Queens, and (even!) Staten Island are critical to the city's identity and culture, and are often overlooked by transplants.

That being said, it's not for everyone. You have to be okay, mentally, with a certain amount of mishegaas. You have to be okay with garbage and the fact that the city reeks in the summer, and you have to internalize the fact that garbage and homeless people existing aren't the same thing as crime. If you're a programmer, you'll also have to internalize that New York cares much less about technology: we're a finance and arts city; if you meet people at bars here, there's a very good chance they won't want to hear about tech or startups, &c &c.

(Separately: you shouldn't be paying anywhere near $5k for the average 1BR, even in a "high-end" neighborhood like the UES. Most convenient neighborhoods in Brooklyn should be around $2.5-$3k for a 1BR in the current market, which is already obscene. For "cool" neighborhoods in Manhattan, I would expect around the same.)

I paid $3.5k for a 1BR in the village in 2019, which was a very good deal at the time. Rents have increased dramatically since then. Maybe time to update your price model?

Assuming you mean West Village, $3.5k is still feasible[1]. So is East Village[2].

I'd say that both of those areas are a little overheated right now, and were in 2019 as well. And rents definitely have gone up; I think I saw around $2.5k as the norm in 2018 for the East Village, when I considered renting there.

[1]: https://streeteasy.com/for-rent/nyc/price:-3500|area:157

[2]: https://streeteasy.com/for-rent/east-village/price:-3500

You’ll notice nearly all of the west village ones are studios. My old apartment was like 600 sq ft and laid out really well with a fully separate bedroom, living room, and large kitchen. Nothing is those listings comes close. Just checked on street east and rent is now 4500-4800.

Sure; the market has definitely gotten tighter. There's a reason I don't live there!

That being said, here's a 650 sq ft rental in the East Village that sounds a lot like yours[1], at $3150. Previous listing was at $2.6k, and I suspect the current heat isn't going to last.

[1]: https://streeteasy.com/building/422-east-10-street-new_york/...

For me it's the schools. I have 3 kids and they all go to public schools in Manhattan. NYC has some very good public schools. Maybe not as good as the best private schools, but hey, you save 50-60k per year.

Among elementary, middle and high schools, the best deal you get with the high schools. NYC has a system of specialized high schools where the admission is based on an exam. Some elementary schools are great. You can research that ahead of time and restrict the area you are looking to move to. Of course, the rents or home prices are higher in the districts with great schools.

Middle schools, that's a bit of a problem. The admission is currently based on lottery. Quite a number of middle schools used to have exam-based admission, but now it's all lottery. Hoping for this to change in the future.

If I didn't have to worry about schools, I'd choose Jersey City any day.

My wife and I stayed in nyc when we were young. With kids now, we are thinking of coming back because of the schools. What is the best way to research the schools that you mention above assuming no prior knowledge.

My experience with the NYC school system is that it’s a highly competitive process. Public schools start off zoned, and the best school zones command a premium for rent and home ownership. Private schools are harder in that you have a competitive application process and then a costly tuition. Starting off in a good school bodes well for landing in a top middle school and eventually a top high school.

For public schools:

https://schoolzones.us/nyc/ https://www.schooldigger.com/

NYS tests all their schools. A school which is in the top 10% of the NYS testing would be considered elite. Top 20% is good. The majority of NYC schools are bottom 50%.

Rents superficially look ridiculous, but unlike other cities where you feel like you're failing unless you eventually own your own big place, here I find it's almost a badge of honor to live in an interesting apartment that's no bigger than it needs to be. I share a studio now with my wife, which as a Bay Area person even 10 years ago I would never fathom doing, but here it doesn't feel unusual at all.

You'll pay more here, but have an experience that's hard to get anywhere else in America. It's definitely worth trying out.

I grew up in NYC but moved to DC years ago and enjoy it a lot. Cost of living is noticeably lower, still no need for a car (though having one isn’t prohibitively expensive like in NYC), and it’s got a better vibe than people give it credit for (At least if you’re not in politics). A bit slower paced but you can also Amtrak or Jet bus up to NYC any time you want.

NYC is incredible, but when it came down to value… it was hard to justify the $5k+/mo rents. Delis are great but its just not worth it

That said, if you are interested in NYC, I wouldn’t look in Manhattan these days. Brooklyn or the more accessible parts of Queens are where I’d look for a better vibe and good values

I agree, DC is fantastic, but only if you're older than 30 and not in politics. I mean, it's great for the obverse, but for different reasons.

Also, the best deli I've ever been to is in Georgetown[0]!

0. https://goo.gl/maps/Sg6PRFSK4kkapCXJA

Will add a little context to what others are saying. Born and largely raised in NYC, both renter and property owner, raising 3 kids as well. Have loved but been ambivalent about NYC too. My wife, also a NYer, and I left in 2000 for California, but when 9/11 happened we KNEW we had to move back.

The economics can be brutal. Have been reading an academic book, a study of rents in Manhattan from 1760-1850 (real book, written by Columbia U history professor). Fascinating, fascinating story but the distillation is a tale of property owners learning in the decades following the revolution how to make land income producing, and how the long series of flywheel-like incentive driven decisions made NYC the property owner dominated city it is today.

As a renter, literally no matter your income, you ARE second class. The interests of large commercial and residential rentiers drive nearly all critical city decisions. Predator/prey is an oft-used metaphor, and it is not wrong, but it is not the whole story. You are prey who are competing to be prey. It is sick.

So as a renter, you will FEEL it. Even if you are in a one of a kind 20k/mo penthouse with a celebrity as a neighbor, you are being used, and you will FEEL that. Beyond the economics, which will be forced upon you- especially right at this moment, because large owners took something of a hit during the pandemic and they are going for blood now, no joke- the status is a vibe you can never quite shake.

All kinds of things in the city are great experientially for all kinds of people, and there really isn't a better place in the US at least to raise autonomous savvy children. And strategically NYC will be fine with climate change- large owners plan 50-75-100 years out, and the city will wind up increasing its dominance as a center.

But if you don't own, you will feel it every day. And the economics make it incredibly difficult for almost all to own.

After all that, my advice is- be careful about your decision making. There are many wonderful energetic places in the US that have fundamentally better economics. If you feel you have to come to NY, come with your eyes open.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

I am curious about your judgement on NYC's climate change resiliency. Did you see the flooded subway stations last time the tide swell? I see NYC as very exposed, and property owners plans based on faulty assumptions about how much the rest of the country would be ready to chip in. Katrina comes to mind.

Certainly, yup.

To be sure, NYC is not ready NOW; a Sandy will happen again this decade, where the city will be disabled for a few days and the current gaps on the longer term resilience plan will be exposed.

When that happens my read of the dynamics is that the capital commitments- which have already been made- will be accelerated and there will be new focus on delivering on the projects, many of which will then get completed in the 2030-2040 timeframe.

Politics and economics of NYC are completely different than of New Orleans.

Katrina was a disaster both because of what happened to infrastructure and what happened to people. Infra-wise, New Orleans as a political unit does not command its infrastructure- being dependent on the Corps and other federal entities- and otherwise from a capital perspective is extremely weak. People-wise, the immediately exposed populations were also those without their own means.

NYC's Katrina moment was in the 1970s, specifically Oct 29 1975. The near default and Ford's abandonment is still crystalline in the minds of capital, even 50 years later. Since then to a first approximation NYC from a political, economic and infrastructure perspective has risen, and moved from strength to strength.

NYC does not have the same kind of vulnerable exposed population- nearly all of the vulnerable housing stock is in fact high end, and/or controlled by interests, not individuals (with exceptions of course scattered throughout). COVID was far more of a Katrina than Sandy was in terms of impact on vulnerable populations in NYC.

From economic and infra perspective, NYC has an operating budget of 100B/year. NYS is 200B. Capital projects up to the single digit B are just budget lines at this scale. NYC/NYS also have these unique entities called Authorities that have a long history of raising capital and operating larger scale projects like bridges and tunnels.

The larger economic weight of spend of resident industries, from finance, to media, to real estate, to tech, to healthcare...on and on- reaches into the Ts (literally). Note all industries are represented (even agri/food) EXCEPT for energy.

Politically, there is very little on the climate denier front and almost none on the Trump chaos actor front. The boroughs- while there are tensions and significant red/blue political differences between them- are far more unified as a pragmatic matter on environment issues.

Significant and surprising changes are happening now around things like energy footprint- the banning of gas appliances in new construction is incredible.

Anyway, NYC is certainly exposed as are most of the coastlines of the country. But when one looks at major coast cities and their resiliency planning, NYC is structurally in a much better place.

NYC is not as exposed as you think. NY harbor has a very narrow mouth and building a proper sea wall wouldn’t be too challenging.

You should definitely come check it out and see if you like being here for a couple of weeks. You can definitely do a lot better than $5k, check out this street easy link[1] at the time of posting it has 173 apartments in neighborhoods in Brooklyn that are all really nice and under $4k/mo with no broker fee. There's actually a LOT of good cheap food here, depending on where you are and your tolerance for eating while standing. Entertainment costs vary, but I saw an excellent show a few weeks ago for $20 and paid I thin $8 for a beer at the venue.

I've been here for 7 years and love it, it's actually very pleasant most of the time.

[1]https://streeteasy.com/for-rent/nyc/price:-4000%7Carea:321,3...

Huh, those are suspiciously reasonable and well placed...

We’ll the devil is in going and seeing a bunch of them, and being prepared to move quickly.

Unfortunately right now is the most expensive the renting market has ever been (after it was the lowest it's ever been 1.5 years ago). Things are slowly cooling.

NYC in general is expensive (11$ chipotle burrito), but the wages are also crazy. For an entry level, 0-2 year experience programmer at a C level startup, you're easily looking at 100k+ salary. Outside of work, NYC is fun because you can pretty much think of anything you want to do tonight/tomorrow, and you'll have multiple options. Manhattan gets less noisy the further from the middle you get. I would recommend upper west side, upper east side, or hell's kitchen to live in Manhattan on a noise to cost to safety balance.

The optimal way would be to move into a 1 bedroom with a significant other and split the rent 50/50

> For an entry level, 0-2 year experience programmer at a C level startup, you're easily looking at 100k+ salary.

Everyone says this but I don't always see people mentioning that there are companies paying new grads this salary in lower cost of living cities as well. I love the idea of moving to NYC, and it certainly would result in a pay increase, but after considering the cost of living adjustment I would be worse off. This is a worthwhile trade for many people but for people who have never been to NYC it can be hard to quantity I'm sure.

My starting in the bay area was $70k at a company nobody has heard of... all the way back in 2008. 100 now seems fairly doable for mortals that have a passion & interest in coding. I've heard the rich kids from elite schools are now getting 200 starting for FAANG tech companies. Unreal.

back in 2000 70k for a starting salary was already ridiculously low

Not everybody on this forum went to Stanford/MIT/Harvard, has multiple offers to choose from, or is independently wealthy from selling their last startup. I think levels.fyi is pretty cool because they actually go and validate that the salaries people are posting are actually real. Not just make believe. My comp at my current company is above what they are quoting, still low for a dev compared to FAANG company counterparts.

looks like you need to learn how to negotiate

Since OP is coming from SF, 100k+ feels like an absurdly low bar.

That said, it shouldn't be too hard to get something close to Bay Area compensation in NYC.

100k salary is poor compensation taking into account the cost of living

I think Hartford is the best. It's a good value except taxes. They have regular trains up and down the Knowledge Corridor and from New Haven you can go to NYC. Unlike Albany, the train prices to interesting places don't vary. You would also perhaps need to like New Haven for it to be worth it. I certainly like it.

However, I moved back to SF almost a year ago and I'm conflicted about it.

However if you want to be in New York multiple days a week I suggest somewhere near a train in NJ, like Elizabeth, and if you really want to be near the ocean I suggest Ocean County, NJ. If you live in NJ you can also go to Princeton and Philly easily which I also love.

I've lived here (Lower Manhattan, BK, and now Astoria) for the last 10 years and wouldn't move anywhere else.

For reference, I lived in SF (Pac Heights) for ~4 years during and after grad school and a couple of other metros tooThe density of stuff to do / people is much higher in NYC. The diversity of people, language, backgrounds is amazing. You are signing up for dirt, grime, homeless people, weird smells and terrible traffic. But also new restaurants, an amazing music and art scene, very interesting people and an increasingly growing tech scene. On housing:

- You don't need to pay $5K for a 1 Br. Greenpoint/Astoria and even UWS has good-ish places for cheaper. You can find a 2 br in the 80s-90s on the west side for 5K, 1 br should be meaningfully cheaper.

- Look at more neighborhoods. Start at times square, and make three circles that are a 20-30-40 min subway commute from there. Not that you would ever go to times square, but it is central and gives you an idea of relative distance.

- Don't live in Jersey City or Hoboken

- Don't expect a lot of space. I know you think you are used to small spaces in SF, but expect smaller. Prioritize clean and quiet over space.

What's the Hoboken downside?

I travel to work in NYC fairly often and I've found myself staying in Hoboken lately, easy to get into city via the tunnels or train depending on where you're going, certainly as convenient as Brooklyn or Queens.

It's not a good city for most. It's expensive, crowded, busy and difficult to live in. If you get a good job in the city and want to try it, sure, give it a shot. But most visitors end up moving elsewhere.

You may wish to consider other large American cities if the only criteria is “good food and has ‘energy’.” For example, the weather in LA is fucktons better than NYC, and LA easily meets those criteria, but you have to be OK with a certain amount of ubiquitous plastic surgery (and equally fake personalities), and you will probably need a car.

Having lived in both: LA is extraordinarily different from NY.

Both have attractive advantages, however those characteristics are nearly diametrically opposed on most aspects.

I used to live in NYC in my late twenties/early thirties. I was single, I made very good money, I loved it. For a man, it’s a great place for dating too, with a significant surplus of women.

But I also don’t regret moving to the Bay Area at all, where I enjoy living in a large house on a quiet street, close to the hills, with year-round great weather. I don’t have a desire to go clubbing anymore, a neighborhood BBQ is just fine.

It was much easier to make friends in NYC, but friendships were transient too: there’s a lot of coming and going. It gets exhausting after a couple of years. I still like going back once a year or so, but a long weekend is enough.

I lived in SF for almost a decade, NYC for a decade, and seattle now for a decade. Of those places I would stay in seattle (as I have). In fact I face a lot of friction because I work mostly for high end finserv companies who rarely hire remotely to stay here.

NYC is wonderful for restaurants, and maybe for bars but I don’t drink. It’s great for museums and cultural activities in ways that make SF and seattle look provincial and backwater. It has a Gotham city vibe that you can’t replicate and if you like that it’s great.

What I didn’t like and drives me away today: * public transit while complete is frustratingly time consuming. To go distances around town I sneeze at in seattle takes at least 45 minutes each way, turning shopping for a new shirt into a full afternoon activity, and commuting to work 25% of your workday. * loud. It’s chronically loud in all dimensions. I hate discordant noise, it stresses me out. Seattle is quiet. New York is maliciously loud. * I like having a garden. No go in Nyc unless you’re independently wealthy. * it’s expensive for what you get for housing. Seattle and SF is too, and maybe SF has moved beyond, but generally NYC expect to always feel house poor - both in spending too much of your base income but also in the quality of location of where you live.

It's worth it if there's something you value there that you cannot get here, and you accept the tradeoffs.

Is it important to you to eat some of the best food on Earth at the expense of living in a smaller, older apartment? Do you prefer social diversity to a temperate climate? Are you generally an indoors or outdoors person? Are you a single straight male?

These are the types of questions I'd be answering to help decide. That said, I haven't lived in NY, so take this all with a grain of salt.

Is it good or bad to be a single straight male in NY?

Good - women outnumber men by a noticeable margin.

I don't think your estimates are accurate. A comfortable 2 bedroom can be had in the nice parts of Brooklyn for 3.5-6k. Manhattan is somewhat more, but not drastically so.

Grew up in the midwest and moved to Brooklyn from Philly. Absolutely love it here. City is truly alive with energy and the job prospects are fantastic. Your mileage will vary though depending on how much you make.

Yeah I’ve been casually browsing no fee apartments which are generally the “luxury” high rises and they are mostly $5k range or higher for a 1 bed.

If I paid a 15% brokers fee on say an older $3500 walk up that would effectively make it $4025 for the first year so the list price is pretty misleading imo.

I have not really seen much lower than low $3000 range that isn’t a studio or really old/cramped/bad location.

I do like cooking on occasion and some of the kitchen setups for apartments even in the $4k+ range are closer to a dorm style kitchenette than workable kitchen.

I have a large (for NYC) 2br with a full kitchen for under 3k. No in-unit laundry, but it's in the building basement. It's not a bad location, but I will say it is not a hip location. When my local train line isn't running due to maintenance it really sucks, but otherwise it's a quick tra in ride anywhere.

Proximity to a subway station is also a big deal. You can be 20 stops from your favorite neighborhood, but if you have a 3 minute walk to the train it doesn't feel far at all.

Manahattan--and I guess Brooklyn these days--are somewhat unique. I'd definitely try them out for a couple of weeks to see if they're something you can handle over the long term. Cost is a factor but it's also just the overall intensity. As a visitor who likes the city, I couldn't stand living there--albeit as a student in the 80s.

Third decade living in NYC. For the last 12 we’ve been raising kids here.

Sure when we travel the grass other places looks green. And life seems so much easier in the burbs or a less hectic city (most US cities are essentially suburbs once NYC gets in your blood…). And it’s expensive as all hell. But it would be so hard to leave.

If you are a person with interests you can find it here. What do I mean by that? If you get interested in something you are almost guaranteed to find a world class way to pursue it here with world class people. I don’t just mean business or career pursuits. If you get passionate about learning things and doing new things you will almost never be limited by who and what exist around you. It’s here.

But it has to be for you. For some people the energy fits like a glove. For some people, all they feel from the “energy” is an invasion into their private sphere. If you are footloose and free try it out for a year!

I stopped looking at these things as absolute, forever.

The real question - do you want to have lived in New York for part of your life, or not.

Yeah, moving to NYC doesn't have to be permanent.

I moved there for a few years and enjoyed it. I couldn't see myself staying in NYC forever, so I'm glad I spent some time there and left.

5k/mo isn't unreasonable for a decent 1bd, and the market definitely goes a lot higher than that. Rents right now I think are a bit insane even for NYC, and there's clearly a huge amount of demand, particularly in the luxury segment. If you have a job that pays well enough such that 5k/mo is not a dealbreaker for you, I think it's absolutely worth a try--it's a completely different vibe from SF or any other city in the US. I moved a decade ago and never looked back. But if possible I would advise spending more for the locations you like most rather than trying to live in a less central area to save money.

Are you, by any chance, a landlord or invested into NYC real estate?

Nope, I'm a long-term renter who is kicking himself for not buying something a year and a half ago before prices started to shoot up or last summer when rates were still low =(

I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint to the slew of advice stating that OP is somehow doing it wrong by looking at 5k/mo apartments. There are a lot of jobs in both tech and finance that pay decent performers 2+ years out of college more than enough to comfortably spend 5k/mo on rent.

I also do think that location of where you live and the quality of your apartment can matter a lot--what you get for 5k is different from what you get for 3k, and if someone can comfortably afford 5k/mo then it's totally reasonable to pay that for the location they want vs 3k/mo for one they find less appealing.

Generally speaking, no, it is not worth living in NYC unless you have family or a network of friends already there. You can have a bountiful social life with good transportation in many smaller-than-NYC cities in the U.S.

Like where else even has close to nyc levels of being able to live without a car ?

Notice I said "good transportation" and not "close to nyc levels". If you want close-to-nyc levels, check out Philly, Chicago, DC, Boston, maybe Seattle or Portland. But you can live without a car in many more cities and have a fulfilling life, it just depends on what your needs are (obviously).

What's the risk in finding out? It sounds like an adventure either way. If you don't like it move on.

Have you thought about something more radical? South east Asia has all of the energy at a fraction of the living costs.

NYC native here (Have also lived in multiple other cities in USA and ouside of it). NYC is a great city to live in. There is so much stuff to do. And the energy you are talking about is real. Those rent prices whoever look insane to me. I know that you can get a one bedroom apartment in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (It is a nice neighborhood) for around $2K. Used to be $1,500 two years ago. I would give it a try. You should live in NYC at least once in your life.

Live in New York City once but leave before it makes you hard.

Live in Northern California once but leave before it makes you soft

TIL a 7 figure mortgage makes you soft.

Not sure of your timing but my tenant is moving out August 31 from my (very) small 1 bedroom apartment in the village right by Washington Square Park and the rent will be well below $5k (not yet sure what it will be but probably lower 3k area). Like I said it’s small. If you’re interested send me an email. Username: “asuela1” with yahoo’s email service (it’s my spam email but I’ll check it if you comment back here saying you sent an email).

1000% yes. After living in NYC for over a decade I find most other places to be intolerable for anything beyond a visit. Most of all, I absolutely could not ever again tolerate a living situation that requires cars. If I can't conveniently get around with walking, biking, bus, and subway, then that's not a place I'm willing to live for any significant amount of time.

Maybe live in Jersey City?

It's closer (time-wise) to mid-town or lower Manhattan than much of the outer boroughs, and is (or was, at least) heaps cheaper.

And sure, NYC is crowded, dirty, frustrating, and so very expensive, but .. it's also exhilarating, fascinating, insane in the best possible way, and if you've got the chance you should absolutely do it.

(Lived there for 6 years; loved it)

OP should absolutely not live in Jersey if they want the things expressed in the original post.

There is a distinct culture in NY that is very different from anywhere else in the US.

If you live in Jersey, nobody you meet in the city will visit you. Ever. No they don’t care that the PATH is only 20 minutes.

I’d suggest looking into roommates and drastically lowering your standards, go to NY, and try east or west village for a year.

Also go for a month and check out the areas to understand where you want to live.

As someone living in Jersey City, this is complete bs, my friends in the city proper visit frequently.

It's true: there are people in NYC who have a thing about going to New Jersey. But ...

Who cares? You work in the city, go out in the city, and you have a short PATH-ride home to decompress. It's fine, and if the city rents are what's blocking you moving there, give it a try. You might end up moving into the city later with some of your new friends, or not.

It's also a useful filter: people unwilling to go to New Jersey have an irrational prejudice and learning that about them can be illuminating.

Yes! Lived there 7 years.

You can’t compare SF or any city in the US to NYC.

Sf and the bay is a boring piece of suburbia that shouldn’t be inflicted on anyone before 35.

Go .. run!

There are many reasons to dunk on SF, but calling it a "piece of suburbia" isn't it.

What are you talking about? There is a ton of apartments under 3k in Manhattan: https://www.zillow.com/new-york-ny/rentals/?searchQueryState...

Though as someone who lived in both cities (not recently) I’m not sure what you’re hoping to gain by moving.

I think the best bet is to take a 2Bed 2Bath apartment for around 6K and split it with a roommate. That way you can cut the most expensive line item of your stay in half, while still getting the NYC experience. However, all that goes out the window if you have a family or kids.

Are you married? Do you have kids?

Nope

I've read that the dating prospects for men are a lot better ( number of single females to males) not sure if that's accurate but may be a consideration

> the dating prospects for men are a lot better

This is very real. There was even a YC backed startup to fly people between NYC and SF to help them with dating.

https://techcrunch.com/2014/03/04/the-dating-ring-is-raising...

Up to your mid-thirties if you're single, then move somewhere cheaper.

It's just very expensive there, unless you have a job somewhere in the city making >100k a year then paying the $2.5k+ rent for a apartment the size of a closet isn't worth it to me.

if you don't feel pretty strongly that it's worth it, it's probably not

XYZ add it for your city ;)

Lots of NYC love here. I've lived in both cities for several years so maybe I can offer a more nuanced perspective. Email's in my profile if you have questions or want some survival tips. And sorry for the length, your question got me thinking!

First, the similarities:

- SF punches well above its weight as far as quality of bars and restaurants so they're about equal here. Both cities have specific things I like.

- Both have gorgeous areas of nature you can visit by public transit. SF has a slight edge here with the Marin County and the Pacific coast, but in NYC you can take the subway to the beach, and it's warm enough to swim. There's even a lifeguard!

- Both have ample employment, especially if you're in tech.

- Both are quite walkable and offer the "table stakes" of city living.

NYC's good:

- Culture & entertainment: Anybody who's anybody performs here. Broadway. Enormous selection of museums, shows, concerts, art galleries, interesting speakers, interest groups, etc. As other commenters have said, this is arguably the best part of NYC.

- Similarly, it's a lot easier to get friends and family to visit you when you live there; nearly everybody wants an excuse to visit.

- Lots of gorgeous parks and outdoor spaces free for the public, well-maintained, and generally safe.

- Significantly better rail transit options.

- Bars and businesses are open way later. Walking home from a bar in SF after midnight is spooky; in NYC, you're often just one of the crowd. Subway & taxis are 24x7.

- You can go to a bar or a meal without hearing a discussion about an app strategy or programming language.

- If you're single, I think it's way easier to meet somebody in NYC, regardless of your preference. It's just a bigger pool, and people have more diverse interests.

NYC's bad:

- Tiny, disheveled apartments. Rent prices. Rent in the wrong building and people can be hostile.

- There's a culture of...honor? Aggression? ...in the city that crosses all races and classes. You can easily find yourself in a fight by accidentally stepping on somebody in the subway (happened to me) or similar clumsiness that would be handled with a polite call-out and apology in SF. One of the biggest unspoken differences IMO.

- People talk about "liking real weather," and summer was nice, but from late October to mid April the sky is flat steel and the wind bites your bones—all the plants are dead and it rarely snows much so it's just brown and gray and grime. It can be seriously depressing.

- Fresh food (fruit, vegetables, sometimes meat) is much poorer in quality in NYC, even at moderately high-end grocery stores. Fruits & veggies can cost triple or more in the winter; they'll be withered and/or moldy in 24 hours. Check the sell-by date on everything you buy, leaving expired products on the shelf is rampant.

- Air pollution is noticeably worse than SF. Can depend on where you live. DO NOT rent by a major road (any of the freeways, some parts of the avenues in Manhattan). SF is small and nearly always has a breeze; NYC has many stagnant days with bad ozone and other lung irritants building up.

- If you ride the subway or take elevators, you'll get sick a lot. It may impact your health long-term, especially combined with the air quality.

- It's noisy and dirty. Ambulances wail like angels announcing the end times. People honk 24x7. Trucks will dump their engine brakes right outside your window. The noise can seriously disturb your sleep; I never got completely used to it, even after years. Whole city smells like piss & garbage when it gets warm.

- I once had a rat run around the corner, being chased by a cat, and run smack into my ankle; both rat & cat sat stunned for a split second then continued down the sidewalk. The thing was so big it actually made me limp for a bit.

- Absolutely gross wealth disparity. I mean it's literally grotesque how gaudy some people and places are.

NYC weather is very subjective. I think the summers are gross, to the point where I feel like I need a shower after walking out to grab a dollar slice, sometimes even at night.

But I love fall, spring, and Christmastime. The winters are tolerable, apart from a couple weeks in January/Febuary.

A resounding YES. I'm a straight single guy, in my early 30s. I just moved a couple months ago after living in SF for 10 years, but I regularly visited NYC for 4 weeks every year, so I had some idea of what I was getting into. Here's a few things to note:

- I still love SF, and I'd totally move back in the next 4-5 years if we see another tech boom, but it now looks like things are going very bust. Visit any other major US city, and not only NYC, but LA, Vegas, Austin, Miami, and New Orleans, and you'll realize that things simply aren't back to 2019 levels (fwiw, in my travels, Chicago was the only other city that felt as dreary as SF). Destigmatization of remote work and a tech downturn spell bad news for SF. I feel things are just going to get worse.

- I kept on making excuses to not leave SF. I had a cushy rent controlled apartment. I accumulated a bunch of stuff. I had an office in SF. I wanted to mentor some junior coworkers face to face. I'm involved in some local community theater and dance productions. I'm good friends with my neighbors, my barista, my barber, and my dentist. And it's my city. In reality, I felt a sense of relief when I gave my roommates notice. And then I flew to NYC, found a few luxury apartments I liked, and got a "luxury" studio in Chelsea. And then, when I got back, it took me about a week to get rid of most of my stuff, and a day to pack the rest into two check in bags, one carry on, and a backpack.

- I didn't realize how chronically depressed I was in SF until I moved. In SF, my social circle fizzed out. My social life was mostly interacting with coworkers (or the few of them who decided to come to the office), and monthly drinks with my dance and theater friends. I spent every weekend either reading a book at home, or on last minute trips to LA or Vegas.

- While I'd be lucky to have any sort of social obligation in SF on any given evening, in NYC, I'd be lucky not to. People live in uncomfortably cramped settings in NYC and they're looking for excuses to get out. Also, a lot of things like restaurant reservations and show tickets require advance planning, so you have to be good at managing your personal calendar. On any given weekend, I'd get texts from former coworkers, current coworkers, college buddies, and random people I met in classes to hang out. That's on top of a much more active dating life.

- As a straight guy, dating is way less stressful. Sure, it's still a numbers game, but it's nothing like the obsessive "spend an hour on Hinge a day if you want a date this week" I experienced in SF. Otoh, women in NYC are less likely to grasp what you do for a living. In SF, I dated women in sales or med school who were learning R and Python in their free time. That's not gonna happen in NYC.

- On the topic of cramped living accommodations, NYC is possibly the only city in the world (except for maybe Hong Kong and Tokyo) that exemplifies the "the city is your living room" concept. Pick a studio based on location - ideally Manhattan below 23rd and uptown of FiDi, and make sure it's big enough to entertain yourself and another person for a few hours, and no bigger. Don't even think about WFH. Go to your office if you have one. My employer gives me a WeWork stipend, which is nice, but I also occasionally work from coffee shops and hotel room lobbies.

- Summers here do suck, ngl. Even venturing out for a few minutes can feel like a chore. People complain about the winters, but I've been here during Jan/Feb and I find it tolerable - and also a nice opportunity to up your dressing game. I miss having in-unit laundry - laundromats are a time sink and even hauling all my laundry to and back from a wash and fold is a slog. I also miss having a fully stocked and spacious kitchen, and having access to a grocery store with sane lines. You have to get used to eating out. Other than that, there isn't much I miss.

- Try moving in winter. The rental market usually cools down by then, and there's also some evidence that inflation more broadly will too.

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