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Comment by ramraj07 | Hacker News Reader

You are absolutely right, but I’m not sure I want to have a free roaming camera and LiDAR sensor from a Chinese company in my home. Absolute piss poor track record of data collection, I’ll happily stick to my roomba. It’s definitely semi dumb but it’s predictable in its quirks. It’s also repairable with copious supply of original parts. Note also that they still innovate, including the self empty bin that actually works, which others have now copied. Just sayin’.

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This is exactly my concern. Imagine a DoD contractor with a remote-controllable, lidar+camera (+mic?) equipped robot based in the USA's main rival country. Does that seem like a good idea? Should we put a fleet of Chinese robots in SpaceX's facility? Lockheed's? Why not?

It's not just "Murica first". If these were European companies, I'd jump ship very quickly to an iRobot competitor with a superior product, thanks to EU's data collection laws and USA's OK relationship with EU. But they aren't, they operate in a regime where questionable data collection is the norm and theft of IP is called "R&D".

Yes, Amazon will use iRobot to vacuum more data than dirt, but at least they are part of the US and EU laws. They provide gov services for a ton of US DoD/NASA infra! China could and would just thumb their nose at us without much concern.

I'm less worried about what a Chinese surveillance device will do in my house than an Amazon one. Only the latter has the ability and history of turning over data to those who can arrest me.

A bit of a nit to clarify:

It seems your actual complaint is that if US Law Enforcement decides you are a target of interest, they would think to go to Amazon and Amazon's reputation is that they'd cooperate in handing over data, whereas the LE officers would neither bother to ask, nor expect cooperation from the Chinese companies.

The Chinese (or anyone) can certainly turn over their data to people who can arrest you, if they decide you are a target.

Chinese companies operating in the US still have to abide by US laws, so they are under the same jurisdiction that compels Amazon to turn over data to law enforcement. If Chinese companies don't comply, they get kicked out of the market.

True, I was thinking only of the Chinese main companies, not their US subsidiaries. So, yes, there really is no advantage there.

Well, that is a fair point. Each person has their own threat model.

I work in tech, often adjacent or on national projects or highly sensitive R&D. We have regular counter-espionage training.

You are concerned about domestic law enforcement learning about you. Both are valid threat models.

As an editorial, I support almost everything EFF and related orgs do, precisely to reduce the fear of US spying that makes China look like a better option (What a state of affairs!)

One concern people should have about foreign tech spying on them is the possibility it undermines the stability of their jobs.

Let’s say it exfiltrates data that eventually allows a foreign competitor to build sophisticated metallurgy for turbines. It’s not like all foreign countries eagerly hire foreign talent, moreover it puts domestic expertise at risk as well as all the collateral subcontractors and suppliers… so, yeah, super metallurgy-guy's job may be secure (can get hired by the foreign competitor), even if the company collapses but not the jobs of 10,000s who work for suppliers, etc.

China could easily turn that data over to American law enforcement if they wanted to see a person they considered a threat to them arrested but that person was outside of their jurisdiction.

China and Amazon are both threats to privacy.

Are there known examples of this happening?

It has not happened, does not mean that it could not happen. Chinese companies are automatically more cooperative than us companies because they are trained to cooperate in their home country already.

But so far I suppose the indigenous big tech spying apparatus has been effective enough to not need foreign operators help.

The former will just blackmail you.

The bar for China successfully leveraging some damaging information on a US citizen in the US is pretty high. Meaning they have to have something very damning against a person in a position of interest. Not impossible but narrow.

The bar for leveraging general information about a regular US citizen in the US by a company like Amazon or the US government is very, very low. One thing I see happening really soon (if not already) is such data being used by medical insurers to algorithmically decide your coverage and rates. Or for authorities to use to establish whatever pattern they want that can be damning even if circumstantial.

Looking around, all of this already happens in the US even without the help of an extra massive data collection net. From companies like Google or PayPal algorithmically locking you out of your critical digital identity, your paid services, your money with simply a boilerplate "sorry not sorry, don't let the door hit you on your way out", to authorities stealing all your neighbors' smart doorbell recordings to see what you have been doing and Stingraying the hell out of everyone on the off chance that they're going to catch the person they're looking for. Anything that makes that easier or opens up more avenues to do more of that is definitely going to be used (and abused) as such.

But the former is acquiring information that may lead to them blackmailing you and/or your loved ones into spying against your nation, which may lead to more than just an arrest.

You're comparing a threat that sounds cool and scary and is practically non-existent to a mundane abuse of privacy that happens every day.

Why does it have to be either? My comment was merely about leak of data to China. Whether it is non-existent or not is something I'd rather not find out.

It is after all a personal decision and to each their own.

>Amazon will use iRobot to vacuum more data than dirt

Well put.

I see the synergy with their Alexa, Echo etc.

Had the same thought. Don't know what data iRobot collects, but perhaps its telemetry includes square footage of your rooms / house? (Amazon can use that to determine how wealthy you are). Attach an echo on that with microphone and camera, and the iRobot could even sneakily follow you and spy on you - Alexa always with you in your house, anywhere!

With Alexa, there is a manual hardware switch where you can turn off the microphones. With Echo Show, there is a manual hardware shutter for the camera.

I'm not sure if that is the answer to privacy concerns, but at least it is there.

> theft of IP is called "R&D".

When it comes to patents, I'm fine with that. Our system of patents has become a significant encumbrance to innovation and is causing US companies to fall behind.

There is a WaPo writer salivating over this take.

> You are absolutely right, but I’m not sure I want to have a free roaming camera and LiDAR sensor from a Chinese company in my home. Absolute piss poor track record of data collection

I am not sure if Amazon is more trustworthy than that.

I would say Amazon has plenty of problems, but also plenty more incentive to behave and try to be careful with the data.

Don't they give camera feeds to law enforcement without warrant?

Yes, and they’re still more trustworthy than a Chinese company

Kinda. The problem is your threat model, no? If you think of US law enforcement as adversary, using Amazon products is a very bad idea.

If US law enforcement is your adversary you’re already fucked. All US companies are subject to subpoena.

Asking for data, and getting it without warrant, is golden.

This is legal for the FBI. An illegal wiretap is not.

A subpoena needs to be signed off by a judge. And there is an appeals process.

I mean there are countless documented situations where U.S. law enforcement has dramatically overreached or misstepped, and personally, I’d prefer people who have cameras and microphones in my home to require the U.S. judiciary to review some facts and agree to issue a warrant for any access. Amazon doesn’t meet this test and so this acquisition likely means we’ll be parting ways with iRobot equipment in our home.

I guess you could say my threat model is not “the United States is my adversary”, and more that I appreciate some checks and balances being present on ‘local yokel’ police departments which are empirically not always doing the right thing (especially where oversight is low).

Not if you’re more worried about the American government than the Chinese government.

How so, logically speaking, setting xenophobia and/or racism aside?

Amazon Handed Ring Videos to Cops Without Warrants

https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-ring-police-videos-securi...

Yup, that was my thinking, even if the Chinese company owns the data, they wont be sharing that with the PD or NSA , etc... if they are, then really doesn't matter who owns your data.

I don't really want continuous surveillance of the interior of my home by any company from any nation. There should be some places where you get to just exist without being monitored.

So far my solution has been just to make sure everything is disconnected from wifi. Not so sure that will actually work for that much longer, if it still does at all (cellular, more extensive mesh networking, etc.).

I think that places in the US will start having to push for the right to turn off and disconnect (yeah, shades of Max Headroom here).

But what is the difference, is the track record of a democracy less grim with your privacy? " Amazon admitted its Ring security cameras have sent recordings to police without the knowledge or consent of the people who own the cameras.

Responding to an inquiry from Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.), Amazon said in a letter dated July 1 that it has handed over private recordings to police 11 times in 2022. The company said it was complying with an "emergency request."

I guess is better to have a device that will share your data with domestic entities that actually spy on you and harm your privacy. If someone "has to" own my data, I prefer that someone to be in another jurisdiction.

Camera and mic (ecovacs highend models have) is a bit consideration, but I don't care CCP take my home's LiDAR information. It should be boring.

> I’m not sure I want to have a free roaming camera and LiDAR sensor from a Chinese company in my home.

Don't you already have that in your pocket?

The Roborock I use works totally fine without any internet connection. I just put it down and pressed a button.

It's also user-serviceable.

pi-hole the roborock subdomains. You'll loose starting via the app, but the robot stills works.

Is there a tangible difference between chinese and american companies when it comes to privacy? It seems either will sell your data to the highest bidder.

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