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Comment by manuelabeledo | Hacker News Reader

For context, A/C in public places is not as prevalent as in the US. In some large retailers, e.g. El Corte Ingles, it's set to ~24 degrees Celsius, quite lower than outdoors, especially in the larger cities of Central, Southern, and Mediterranean Spain. It feels really cold.

Anyway, the odd voice here is the one from the president of the Madrid region, who went on Twitter to say that they won't comply, mostly not because of the A/C, but another bit that requires stores to shut off their lights when they are closed, effectively keeping their showcases in the dark at night.

Personally, it sounds like the stupidest hill to die on.

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> Personally, it sounds like the stupidest hill to die on.

Lit showcases are an anti theft measure too...

How so?

I mean, in a world where alarm systems usually include vibration and glass break detectors, cameras with night vision, and redundant phones for early alerts, do we really need showcases to be lit all night long?

Sounds like you're only thinking of luxury item shops that can afford all that...

Obviously not the same thing, but Simplisafe offers most of that for like $500. A pair of cheap cameras is less than $80.

And we're talking about Spain not the US. Bit of an income difference.

> And we're talking about Spain not the US.

I know. I'm from Spain myself, worked several jobs there.

I could cover a whole cafe with cameras for less than the cost of your average cash register, which, if I remember correctly, in 2008 was about 150 euro. Even convenience stores have cameras nowadays. I don't see the issue here.

> I mean, in a world where alarm systems usually include vibration and glass break detectors, cameras with night vision, and redundant phones for early alerts, do we really need showcases to be lit all night long?

You're thinking like a rich technologist. You're also assuming a pretty fast police response. What good does that stuff do if the police don't respond and thief or vandal wears a mask?

People feel more comfortable doing wrong when they're hidden in the dark. Keeping the lights on will deter a lot of people. A lot of gizmos no one will notice will not deter anyone.

I don't think I understand what you are trying to say here.

Currently, basic cameras and alarm systems are very affordable, more so than most of the staple devices in any given shop, e.g. cash registers. And if we are talking about actual deterrents, then they should be looking at steel window grills.

But let's assume that it is true that keeping a store lit is a deterrent, then why wouldn't they put up cheap, motion activated lamps, around the store?

Point is, businesses need to keep up with the times. Just stating that lightning keeps thieves away is not going to cut it.

> I don't think I understand what you are trying to say here.

You're making the error of focusing too much on technological gizmos as "solutions."

> Point is, businesses need to keep up with the times. Just stating that lightning keeps thieves away is not going to cut it.

The context here is banning the lighting.

Why is it a mistake? Genuinely curious.

If some “gizmo” has the potential to make something better for a little investment, why not consider it?

The gizmo isn't good as a deterrent. Only for maybe catching the thieves after the fact.

Just like police cars patrolling neigborhoods at night lead to a drop in petty crime even if they don't actually catch anyone.

Alright, then where’s proof that keeping showcases lit is a deterrent?

So far it seems just the word of a random Internet stranger against mine.

Freedom is a good hill to die on.

What does that have to do with freedom? You mean the freedom of a business owner to set their AC to whatever they like? Why is that symbolic of "freedom" in any way? As a business owner we have agreed as a society that there is a lot of rules you have to obey already - you cannot throw your rubbish out on the street, you must post your prices clearly, you must provide disabled access, you must give refunds for faulty items, etc etc etc. How is it freedom to be able to set your AC to 25C, but not building disabled access for your customers isn't?

This post resonates with me, well put

The fact that we don’t have as much freedom as we should means we have carte blanche to keep taking freedom away from us? What an argument. A self fulfilling prophecy!

Yes we should have the freedom to keep our lights on if we want as long as we pay our bills. And if we want we shouldn’t have to build a ramp to our business. How are these things even something to argue about?

>>And if we want we shouldn’t have to build a ramp to our business.

Are you serious? How is this even a thing to argue about???

>>Yes we should have the freedom to keep our lights on if we want as long as we pay our bills.

Even in an energy crisis? I imagine when you are faced with severe drought you also argue that you should be able to use as much water as you want as long as you pay your bills? What an argument. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from - blatant disregard for the needs of the society over the needs of an individual? Just money? Belief that as long as you pay for something then the greater impact on everyone else shouldn't be considered? I'm so baffled by replies like yours.

This energy crisis is a self inflicted wound- people here have consistently voted for candidates that have refused to build nuclear, have put CO2 caps in place, have made enemies of everybody who could sell us gas, etc. They deserve everything that is coming to them. I have absolutely no sympathy for the prices that they are having to pay.

I don't see how that's relevant here though. And I especially don't see how that's relevant to Spain - Spanish people don't vote for or elect politicians in Germany, which is the country most in trouble right now due to its idiotic energy policies

>>have made enemies of everybody who could sell us gas, etc.

I hope you don't mean Russia by this.

Spain can solve all those problems by ourselves. If the EU doesn’t let us, then Spain must leave the EU.

Yes I mean Russia. I don’t give a shit what they are doing. What’s the alternative, buying liquefied gas from the USA? Have you been paying attention to what they’ve done the past decades? Lol

Ok, I've had enough of arguing with Russian apologists on the internet over the last few months. I have zero interest in taking to you any further.

Hold on, so your definition of “freedom” is becoming dependant on a fascist state who actively threats your very own neighbours, just for the chance of keeping some arguably useless store lightning on?

> If the EU doesn’t let us, then Spain must leave the EU.

It is a joke, isn't?

Then, they alone should suffer the consequences, right?

If they refuse to acknowledge that Spain is in dire need of saving energy, then they should be the first ones to be shut down if/when there is no enough power to warm up the country on winter.

The hardest part is that you first have to understand what freedom means. I guarantee most people don't really get it. It's just a nice word to throw around, it has a nice sound to it. "Freedom". "We live in a free country". Yeah, then you proceed to spend half of your life in a work environment where you have no decisional power at all and you're subject to stupid rules imposed by the owners. "Freedom".

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