Who do we spend time with across our lifetime? (2020)

Language ruined everything, as it allowed us humans to update and maintain our social network (not the digital ones, the in-brain one) without seeing or (like apes do) touching each others for days. Our groups/tribes jumped from 30 members maximum (chimpanzees) to 100-200 (Dunbar’s number, calculated from a meta-study). That’s nearly 7 times more close relationships, and no need to see more than one or two daily to keep track!

From there, it’s all downhill, with writing allowing even bigger groups, distant communication, the printing press, telephone, allowing our small brains to manage huge social networks across the world and over the years.

Really, language is the source of all these fake, distant relationships!

Good articles to read, even more if you are building or studying internet social networks, communication tools, etc.

"Gossip in Evolutionary Perspective" https://attach.matita.net/ziorufus/Dunbar%20gossip.pdf

"co-evolution of neocortex size, group size and language in humans" https://pdodds.w3.uvm.edu/files/papers/others/1993/dunbar199...

They are part of the material I use in my ´History of Tech Design´ class! ( https://workflowy.com/s/strate-history-of-te/a4ID6kKtznLwQC7... )

For thousands of years, most people just couldn't move very far due to physics and economics. The were mostly forced to be neighbours with family. It's always valuable to have good relationships with neightbours, whether they're family or not. As the old Dutch saying goes "Beter een goede buur dan een verre vriend” ("it’s better to have good neighbour than a distant friend").

(I think that's an adaptation of a section of the Bible Proverbs 27:10: "Do not forsake your friend or a friend of your family, and do not go to your relative’s house when disaster strikes you— better a neighbor nearby than a relative far away.")

I grew up around a large extended family and now live in a large metro away from anyone I’m related to other than my wife and kids.

I wish my kids could grow up like I did but my siblings don’t look like they’re having kids soon and neither do my wife’s siblings.

But, I feel so sad for my children when it’s just us on Christmas. It feels lonely because growing up, Christmas always had like 20 people.

We’ve thought about moving back closer to my family now that I work remotely but my wife is from a different part of the country and that makes it tougher because it would take us further from her family. She’s also from the city (not our current city) and doesn’t like the idea of living somewhere rural (she considers it rural, the metro we’d consider has 500k people though).

Even a couple of generations ago things were very different. Maybe Americans don't see this so much because it's a country of migrants, but it was common over here in the UK, just a century ago, for people to spend their entire lives within a 10 mile radius of where they were born.

> Whenever I have a family vacation, I can’t help but think how unnatural our present lives are.

I feel it is as unnatural as not having cholera roaming around: better than the natural state of affairs.

I love my family, but family vacations make me want to run away screaming. Having to live with family would break me.

Well said. I'm not sure which method is "better" (maybe a society's overall productivity increases if children leave the home, but I don't know if this is "good" for the individual or not), but this does seem unnatural.

However, I didn't feel this way during high school. I spent eight hours there during school itself, and then two or three hours afterwards playing sports with my friends. My memory is a little hazy, but I don't recall spending a lot of time with my parents even back then. But for some reason it feels different today, even though I actually think I spend more time with my parents today (I usually visit them on weekends).

I wonder why that is. Maybe it's because high school (for some of us, not for everyone) is largely spent with your friends, so your "social needs" are more readily met, versus at your typical rank-and-file corporate environment.

Anyways, I'm rambling again. I agree with you though fundamentally: this arrangement seems unnatural, and suboptimal too.

The good news is that you get to pick your colleagues and acquaintances.

I agree, about one year ago while backpacking for couple years I landed in a rural village in rural Australia, met a girl there and stayed for 18 months. I myself am from the Netherlands, and really noticed how life there revolves around things that I think are so much more important. Like bigger families, nature, lots of space and better work life balance. In the end I couldn't live with the thought of me creating a new family there and leaving my parents, sisters and niece's behind even though I would love my future siblings to life this simpeler rural life.

On top of this, the girl I broke up with visited for the last 3 days and just drove her to the airport, she dug up all these emotions again and second guessing my decision again..

Your post really resonated

As they say you can't choose your family, but you can choose friends, so I can see how many/most of the people would choose between age 20-40 to stay away from family, then when you have your own kids you will start seeing your parents in different context as you became parent and see you was maybe more harsh on them than they deserved plus them helping with watching grandkids is also bonus (this doesn't really apply to me, my mother is 4 hours away by train, father 6 hours and inlaws 11 hour flight.

Yeah its really sad. Most of the time I've spent with my family has already happened. The future holds at most a week or two each year in the future. It is really hard as well since I really dont want to live in the part of the country ANY of my family currently lives in.

If you were around your family all day you'll get over them just like your colleagues. The most unnatural thing about modern life IMO is that we are not doing physical labor all day and instead sit. Whilst also working more.

--edits for my terrible phone

I came across an interesting take on this in the book Algorithms to live by [1]. They argue that old age is a time of exploitation (as in explore/exploit strategy) where we tend to prioritize relations/experiences that we know to be rewarding. At a younger age, we are more accommodating to explore new experiences. That is why a teenager entering a dorm in a new environment full of strangers can get excited while for old people entering a retirement home it can be a harrowing experience.

1 - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1627790365

Perhaps a controversial take on why we feel like doing less – remember the pandemic? It’s been just long enough that the last 2 years feel like “This is how it’s always been and always will be”

But it’s not! The last 2 years are abnormal in every regard. The joy for life will return. The gatherings will be back. Seeing family will be fun again.

Might take a little effort at first to break new old habits …

I've come to see this as symptom of increased prosperity.

When money was tight, people were what provided comfort. Everyone got together to prepare and celebrate. Now that families can afford to pay someone else to do it, we are basically left with a lunch/dinner and some time talking, which doesn't feel far off from old school aristocratic galas. There is little emotional investment beyond 'maintaining the network' and the same 1 hr drives start looking like barriers.

I always preferred small (3-8) groups for company so the phenomenon has hit me slightly less severely, as it is easier to get small group together and emotionally involved, but bigger family gatherings are definitively getting rarer.

I can't speak to trends, but this hasn't matched my experience personally. The generation just changes. Back in the 80s and 90s, my immediate family would go gather at my aunt's house for Christmas Eve to see my mom's family, then my grandma's house for Christmas to see my dad's family. Today, we trade off between seeing my wife's parents and siblings and their kids for one of either Christmas or Thanksgiving, at her sister's house, and then we visit my parents and siblings and their kids for the other, at my sister's house. Those sisters had to step up and become that next generation, though. There was a gap of a few years after both my mom's parents died when we no longer visited that extended family, but started to have our own as my sisters started having kids old enough to be worth visiting (in the sense that they'll actually form memories) and for us all to be in fairly stable living arrangements.

Once that happened, though, as in we started having kids, stable houses to visit, and enough money to make those flights a few times a year, we picked back up just as the previous generation had. And social media and smartphones weren't really a widespread thing yet during the gap, so that clearly wasn't the cause. It was just the older generation dying off and the newer generation not having immediately stable lives and their own younger families to share.

I've noticed the same thing. I think it comes down to social media/internet has gotten so good at capturing our attention, that other stuff like sitting with relatives and talking about lives and such just seems less interesting. It's really messed up.

Same here, but everything changed as some folks started having children. Now all events are back, people attend & they are fun again. So, at least in my family, the events are there for the kids and, without kids, no one gets interested.

The illusion of being together when being virtual probably is the single largest reason for isolation. not to mention, when your friends/partners/siblings are texting other people while next to you - you're not even getting their 100%, as they could have.

I had a flatmate who I played games with before moving in with him. After we moved in, sure I saw him here and there around meals, but in some cases if we were on slightly different schedules we could literally go a few days without seeing eachother, while still talking over a game of Valorant or Overwatch every night, just like before

True. But also means being alone doesn't feel as it did "back in the day"™. Guess radio's been the first media to give us that.

I think even in a larger town this is viable to see plenty of people that you know. Part of the problem is the car centered infrastructure in America that makes it impossible to walk places and makes it seem normal to have to travel 20 miles to get groceries or a haircut.

> Nowadays when we go shopping or for a haircut or whatever, we are mostly interacting with basically anonymous people that we are unlikely to remember even if we do ever see them again.

That's your choice. I shop at the same small businesses food market every time and see the same faces year after year exchanging life anecdotes. I see the shopkeeps there more often than I see my actual friends.

Most Americans actually stay in or near city where they grew up - 75%.

However, PhDs and post docs essentially have to move for career reasons. So, the researchers are more biased toward moving around.

I think it depends on your role and the relations between the coworkers. Most people can't really be boss and friend at the same time. In some companies backstabbers are plenty and you need to be careful with whom you share your thoughts and weaknesses. So it's wise to clearly separate the "shallow&fake friends" from your real friends with whom you can let your guard down.

On the other hand we can use it as a criterion on selecting a good workplace. If you do not feel comfortable with your coworkers then maybe you should not work there.

I've never lasted long at any position I didn't rapidly make friends. It certainly doesn't apply to everyone's personality but if I can't enjoy the company of people I spend a massive part of my day with it's a no go.

I don't find fulfillment in my work. I hate the question "What do you do for a living?" I am there because I need to be until I have enough not to be, and so while I'm there I can't afford to be miserable too.

I've always thought not being friends with your coworkers is a defense mechanism. Most of us have to work to survive, so getting emotionally involved and ending up with an uncomfortable or toxic environment (one with conflict and favoritism) is a big risk.

I've observed that the more highly paid and "professional" your work environment, the harder it is to make friends through work.

Something I told the younger engineers in my last so-many years before I retired: "It's not the project you're working on, it's your co-workers. If you find a team where you're happy, where the manager is cool, stay there."

To some degree I agree. But then it's average minutes per day. And for that about 1 hour is still a lot of time.

Sometimes these days I would like it to be only 1 hour. :-)

It is sad. I watched all three of my little girls grow up and head out into the world.

"In Metal" by Low plays is playing in my head now....

One option is to raise your kids in Asia

Me too man, me too.

Some things accumulate over your lifetime. You don't need to make the same experience over and over again if you can remember it instead. Also energy goes low for many, so they meet up once per month instead of several times per week, just to save energy and regenerate. Life doesn't really get worse because of it. Time just moves faster and faster.

I would reread the chart. Time with friends and time with partner stays the same through 60. You just don’t work as much, and your kids move out. It doesn’t seem so tragic to me.

I'd say the only major thing is time spent with friends sharply decreasing, but that happens in the 20s. Family is an odd one since there is also the category of children and partners. I guess family means your parents, siblings, and extended family? In general speech I would say spending time with your partner or kids counts as spending time with your family.

I also don't think the difference is that drastic over time. The charts shows people spending about 4-5 hours a day alone in their 30s-40s, and then 7-8 hours alone when they get into their 70s-80s. 2-3 hours extra per day doesn't seem like that much to me, especially when you consider the main reason is retiring from work

Say more about your situation.

I have a lot of alone time, even though I live with my partner. I don't have coworkers, kids, family, or friends, so if I'm not with my partner, I'm alone.

Looking at my parents who are further along on the X axis it seems part of that "alone" may be due to assisted living or deceased spouses (ie, not by choice).

Maybe their close co-workers also retired and are getting close again?

It doesn't say "their children" it says "children". Perhaps siblings count? I was basically responsible form younger sibling when I was growing up like 1-2h a day (we were latchkey kids).

average 15 year old =/= a typical 15 year old

Usernames that begin with capitals and worthless comments :3c

Browsing reddit out of content drought on HN and still feeling smug about how my HM routine is better