Why the Lumia 800 is the first device I would switch to from an iPhone | Hacker News Reader

Why the Lumia 800 is the first device I would switch to from an iPhone

marco.org

55 pointsshawndumas59 comments

>"Since there are no other factors helping Windows Phone’s sales at retail, I don’t see how it’s going to move past the state it’s in today: a platform that reviews well but effectively nobody buys."

Retail sales of WP7 phones will be driven by the same factor which drove Android sales - handset manufacturers choosing to build phones running the OS. See Nokia.

The reason this is likely to happen is that WP7 offers a far more stable roadmap and sophisticated B2B relationship than Android. Not least among the benefits are Microsoft's deep pockets, patent portfolio, and consumers' 20+ years of familiarity with the Windows brand.

On the development side, Visual Studio for Windows Phone offers a much lower barrier to entry in terms of cost relative to the iPhone and a much lower barrier to entry in regards to technical knowledge relative to Android (i.e. cheaper development hardware relative to Apple and a more user friendly IDE and languages relative to Android (YMMV)).

Furthermore, TouchStudio provides an onboard IDE to allow scripting by users in a way analogous to bundled BASIC of the Commodore 64, IBM PC, or TRS-80. Because Microsoft is approaching the phone as a true computing device, WP7 is highly likely to gain traction in markets with low levels computing infrastructure by leveraging the higher levels of cellular infrastructure which is not uncommon in the developing worlds.

To put it another way, WP7 offers development opportunities in places without app stores to people of diverse stripes who are interested in solving meaningful computing problems and addressing acute needs without requiring the investment in additional resources (i.e. computers for development).

In other words, Microsoft's strategy appears to include a definition of developer in line with the early days of personal computers where every person may be their own developer - in opposition to a solely consumer centered model of the phone as primarily a media consumption device.

And that strategy truly offers handset makers the opportunity to radically expand the smartphone market in ways that are more difficult to achieve with Android.

I don't think apps have a major impact on purchasing factor for the general public. I would imagine that the most important web properties would already have Windows clients.

I feel the real reason is that the hardware so far has been really bland and nothing catches your attention. The Lumia has a fresh design that could kickstart the 'wow' factor.

That and availability of phones. I only got a WP7 phone because it was available free as part of my two-year upgrade cycle. Once more of those models are available to the general public I imagine more people will start to use WP7.

Not saying it will ever overtake iPhone or Android, but it could certainly start to pick up more market share now that Nokia is using it.

The fresh design is straight from N9, which has been selling quite well in the limited markets where Nokia released it. And N9 reviews are also great, in the tune of the best phone you'll never be able to buy.

Apparently Windows Phone 7 is also quite good, but I wonder if it still is good enough to compete in an iOS-and-Android world. Maybe if Nokia and Microsoft pour enough money there.

How about the mobile start-ups here, do you have any WP7 app plans?

If you don't already have a smartphone (the majority), then I think apps don't matter as much.

I have an investment in some of my apps -- even if they were available in WP7 (or had an equivalent), I need a migration tool for the data. Each app I install is a little bit more lock-in.

The apps will come and they will be better designed.

I do not know if anybody here has tried the Microsoft developer tools but they are more advanced than anything even Apple has.

Expression Blend for example is something Android developers need badly. I hope that with Adobe letting go of Flex that Google is going to poach a lot of their IDE team like they did with Chet Haase.

What they are missing was a more open API and a more in your face marketing attitude. Nokia will bring that to the table.

Microsoft has deep pockets and they need to be in mobile to stay relevant (even if they earn more money suing Android manufacturers). You next phone will be a Windows Phone.

Microsoft has deep pockets and they need to be in mobile to stay relevant (even if they earn more money suing Android manufacturers).

This isn't an argument when their competition has deeper pockets...

lol! True. I meant that they won't throw in the towel like HP did with WebOS devices. Even if the sales of the devices do not take off, they still can force manufacturers to produce Windows Phone devices, I am quite certain that the manufacturers they threatened to sue in the "Android maneuver" got a better deal if they accepted to produce Windows Phone handsets in the future. My tuppence worth.

I have a love-hate relationship with WP7 development.

On one hand, we have Visual Studio, a built in phone emulator, the .Net platform and excellent documentation/tutorials. It's almost stupid how easily you can create fairly advanced "form based" applications with WPF. Games are fairly straightforward with XNA. The build in emulator works with VS like a dream, dropping in and out of breakpoints, etc.

I could gush all day about the development environment.

However, App Hub (the place to actually publish your app) is an absolute nightmare. Built entirely in Silverlight, it is buggy, clunky and unintuitive. There is basically zero documentation, descriptions are vague or just wrong. Stats about your app are at least a week delayed and are not detailed. You can only see reviews for your app in your local market (e.g. US market). My app has a few reviews from England, but I have to use a third party tool to view them.

I could rant all day about App Hub.

The app hub problems you describe are fixable. Did you relay your issues to Microsoft?

I have and so have a lot of other developers.

To be fair, they did a major overhaul of the App Hub just prior to Mango which corrected a number of other issues. It just seems to take them a long time to correct what should be obvious issues or usability problems.

From my experience with iPhone and iTunes connect (also not a great application) I don't spend a lot of time in iTunes Connect. Are you spending a lot of time in the App Hub? What I'm getting at is that this sounds like a pretty minor thing in the grand scheme.

Oh, I agree entirely. The benefits of the excellent development environment completely overshadow the poor App Hub experience.

And once you're at the point where you are submitting an app, you are already committed. The poor experience won't stop you from submitting, and probably won't stop you from developing another app.

> You next phone will be a Windows Phone.

I'm not so sanguine. First Mover Advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-mover_advantage) is a very real effect across many industries. In fact, the some of the patterns in the wikipedia entry have already been seen in the smartphone market (pre-emption of scarce resources, free rider effects). And we don't have to look too far back in history to find an example of an OS with a superior UI (original Mac) getting trounced by an OS with a huge application library (DOS/Win3.1). I don't think we see Microsoft playing a significant role in the smartphone market. Unlike tablets, there aren't too many customers needing to run Win32 API apps on a phone. Until we see another inflection point in the platform market, I think Windows will remain niche on the phone and modestly successful on the tablet. The wildcard is the IP litigation, I suppose. If Apple were to be wildly successful at crippling Android, I imagine OEMs would flock to the WinPhone platform.

It's worth noting that Apple spent years working on their own software tools to retain a minimal level of software parity with Windows. Macs were dismissed for years as not having the same wealth of software that PCs had, especially in the gaming world.

Nobody says that anymore.

True, Steam and the Mac App Store have largely remedied that, but the amount of titles available (and release date) are still quite a bit behind Windows. I've also noticed my games (Source games in Steam and Minecraft) push more fps when I boot my MBA in Windows 7. (although I don't fault OS X for that - it's probably a developer/driver issue).

Actually its probably partly OSX's fault too, the OpenGL rendering code tends to go more for correctness over speed from what I've seen. That said, the drivers aren't exactly speed daemons.

Aren't those arguments very US-centric ? If Windows phones sell well in Japan and in Europe, they could attract developers.

They are already marketing it heavily in Japan and Nokia is a European company.

I have a Windows Phone device and work in an office where most people use OS X and some have iPhones. I have yet to hear anyone prefer Andoid to Windows Phone with some actually preferring the WP interface to the one on their iPhone.

If I were buying a new phone today, it would really be a hard choice between the Lumia and the iPhone 4(s).

I bought the Samsung Focus S. Not as flashy as the Lumia, but it's still a damn good phone that had stuff like front-facing camera that the Lumia is oddly lacking. And yes, I love the UI.

Intentionally provocative headline. He says it is a reasonable alternative if he had to switch but not good enough as it stands.

It's not provocative, it just leaves off the conditional at the end.

I don't know why there complaints about the marketplace. The WP7 platform has been a huge hit with developers; just take a look at what's out on the marketplace: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/apps. From everything I know the review process is leagues better than the Apple's in that you get actual feedback about the issues whether or not your app is acceptable. Microsoft has put out a podcast from Redmond that covers what is going on with the platform to help developers http://wpradio.podcast.windowsphone7.com/rss.

Then there is the fact that they make it free for students to develop with dreamspark accounts. https://www.dreamspark.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductId=2...

"I don't know why there complaints about the marketplace."

Er, because there are 10 times the apps in their competitors' marketplaces. Yes, wp7 has the low hanging fruit covered but there are many apps that cater to niches that are not present. It's like Excel vs OO Calc. Yes, Calc can do most of what Excel can do but it is the remaining few percent of functionality that makes a non-solution for people. And it is a different subset for different people. Just like with wp7 vs Android and iOS. What is so hard to understand here?

Two months ago my contract was up with AT&T, so I decided "What the hell, I'm going to purchase an iPhone(4)!". So I did. Turns out, after all the hype I was completely underwhelmed by it. It's not that it's a bad phone, it's great. It's just that the general OS feels tired to me. The interface. I ended up playing with a Samsung Focus a few days later in the same AT&T store and swapped my iPhone for it. I'm incredibly happy with this phone, and the Mango update addressed many of my concerns. Microsoft did well on the core features with this phone, which for a user like me is everything. I'm not a particularly heavy app user, so the seeming lack of quality apps doesn't bother me (even though there seems to have been an upturn in good apps lately).

>It's just that the general OS feels tired to me.

What does this even mean?

The OSX look is pretty old at this point. They've managed to update it in spots but much of it is dreadfully ugly. Like this:

http://admintell.napco.com/ee/images/uploads/appletell/bill-...

Note that Metro is pretty old too, it started with Windows Media Center, but has changed a lot since then.

"much of [iOS] is dreadfully ugly"

This is complete unadulterated bs. Thank you for a good laugh today.

Can you post a screenshot (or a link) to a similar page from an OS that doesn't look tired to you? Not criticizing you -- just want to know what you think.

Can't speak for the OP, but the WP7 interface does not look tired to me:

http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/windows-phone...

That home screen is the perfect mix of iPhone (structured, but with minimal ability to display info) and Android (stacked with widgets, but a mess layout-wise).

The UI in WP7 is incredibly person-centric- I look up their entry in the phone book, it shows me their updates on various social networks, as well as a "history" tab that aggregates all our chats, e-mails and text messages into one list. It's very slick.

That shot of WP7 also looks a lot less functional than the above one of iOS. Apple's interface is well-organized; the purpose of each screen element and the results a user should expect from manipulating it are fairly clear and unambiguous.

The WP7 UI seems to be following Microsoft's recent "haphazard grid of inconsistent elements" approach, which works about as well as the ribbon.

How do you figure that? The WP7 tile list is a list of apps, just the same as iOS icons. Except that apps can push a hell of a lot more information onto their tiles than iOS apps can to their icons. I struggle to see how that is less functional.

With the exception of the single number-bubble, iOS icons don't include dynamic information on them, and therefore aren't regularly changing in appearance.

The icon to run the photo viewer in WP7 appears to consist entirely of a thumbnail of an image from your photo album. That means that every time you take a new photo, the image changes.

Your contact list application itself contains a grid of thumbnails of contact photos, which is a superfluous feature, and may cause a lot of confusion if other applications also contain a grid of content thumbnails.

Pushing information onto tiles is itself one of the key usability problems with WP7. The controls that you interact with to invoke functions should not do double-duty as general-purpose info delivery systems. Apple gets this right; the ability of controls to convey information is limited to conveying state information that indicates whether/when you need to interact with the control itself, and the shape, placement, coloring, and imagery of the control don't change for trivial reasons.

I understand the visual appeal of the Metro UI, but ultimately, this is supposed to be a functional user interface, not a Mondrian print.

A video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=locNEna0of4&hd=1

Every other mobile OS presents you with a "sea of icons" as the home screen which is pretty boring by now and is essentially a rehash of this http://images.yourdictionary.com/images/computer/_PROGMAN.GI...

Screens simulated. Sequences shortened.

Live tiles look like an interesting way to see a limited view of the data or activity available within an application. They seem to reduce the number of application targets to 8 (or fewer if the application wants more than one square).

What do you mean by a similar page? A settings page? Settings pages aren't usually visually attractive, they are utilitarian; but this one is (at least to me) offensively ugly. For example, I count 6 different shades of blue used on this page, including a wallpaper design... to me this has a very old look to it.

This is pretty far into the land of "taste". One man's "old" is another's "iconic". If anything, it looks like the industry is moving more toward the iPhone's understated style (see Ice Cream Sandwhich) and emphasis on texture (look at the new Milk app) than the "anti-skeutomorph" thing, whose internal logic is a lot stronger than its appeal to most people. As someone that's been using Ableton Live for the better part of a decade, it's amusing to me that people even find this look remotely "fresh". MS will find out the hard way that designers and normal people like gradients, shadows, texture.

I'd call it cheesy, not tired.

Whether the OS looks good or not is, of course, subjective. But it's hard to argue that Apple have innovated all that much from the original release:

http://www.lookingforiphone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/I...

to the latest:

http://admintell.napco.com/ee/images/uploads/appletell/Iphon...

By comparison, look at Android's first release:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/inline/91052290-CE47...

Compared to ICS:

http://hotcellularphone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Andro...

WP7 is difficult to compare because it was effectively a complete reboot of the entire OS, but still. Apple's visual style has not changed much since 2007.

This is a disingenuous comparison. All you are doing is comparing the springboards. The underlying iOS is now vastly different than 1.0--multitasking, search, copy and paste, wireless sync, background processes, notification center, I can go on and on. If they got the springboard right, why change it? For the sake of change?

I'll admit that it isn't the most detailed comparison. But we're talking about iOS "looking" tired. Multi-tasking, wireless sync, background processes etc. really don't have an impact on the way the OS looks.

If they got the springboard right, why change it? For the sake of change?

I think the larger question is "did they get the Springboard right?". I don't think it is exactly the zenith of user experience, especially on a platform like the iPad.

Then the conversation should center around whether they got the springboard right, not if it hasn't changed. Whether or not it looks different is the wrong place to start.

Does it bother anyone else that he hasn't really given any reasons why it's the first device he'd switch to from an iPhone? Is it OS, battery life, UI? What about it would make it his first choice?

All he does is whine about market conditions and reasons it will fail.

If no one dares to make the jump, it isn't going to happen. You should make apps for this phone if it really is promising. Why would you want to be at the end of the line when you can be first. Okay there is the risk that it's going to be a short line, but what if it isn't. What if this phone becomes successful and you are way ahead already making apps for it. If we would all sit and wait for everything, nothing will happen.

I haven't tried it but I believe there might be life even without apps. There are a couple of things Windows Phone 7 might do better: dedicated camera button (does anyone do the double tap to use the camera on the iPhone? I can't remember doing it most of the times.) and better notifications via the home screen. It would be enough for me to change if I needed to (which I don't, iPhone 4 is the best device I ever had).

I think the article title says it all. The author has NOT, in fact, switched.

/story

... also it runs internet explorer bringing the pains of having to do non-standard web development hacks to the mobile world too. So from my very selfish perspective, I really hope, Windows Mobile will never really take off so that I don't have to really deal with Internet Explorer Mobile.

Wouldn't it be better to hope that it takes off so other better browsers are ported?

No, because most users will just use the browser that comes with the phone.

It's the same on desktop OSes: IE is the most popular browser on Windows, Safari is the most popular browser on OS X.

Windows Phone 7 uses IE9 and that is a darned good browser.

I dont know what browser Windows Mobile uses but its irrelevant since Windows Phone 7 replaced it.

Well, Microsoft's marketing certainly works. IE9 is certainly better than IE8.

However, nothing gives me confidence that IE 9 will not be the new IE 6 and so I wish for IExplorer to just vanish completely.

You see, IExplorer 6 was also a darned good browser. But did it hold the web back? Yes it did. And for all the bullshit marketing coming from Microsoft, IExplorer 9 is doing it again. Nothing really changed.

http://people.mozilla.com/~prouget/ie9/

  darned good browser.

…compared to IE7. Is it not a mix of IE7 and IE9?

Pre-Mango update, it was a mix of IE7 and IE8. After the Mango update, it's IE9's rendering engine, which gives it HTML5 capabilities.

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