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Comment by ARandomerDude | Hacker News Reader

> Songbun is a three-tier class system divided into 51 categories that was created by the Kim regime to isolate and control perceived internal political threats. It is very difficult to move up even from one category to the next-higher category, but it is very easy to move downward. Even an elite person living in Pyongyang can commit an infraction and be exiled to the country with a much lower songbun. Every person above the age of 17 in North Korea has a file maintained by the government that contains the individual’s songbun.

Sad: This type of social credit score system seems pervasive and will no doubt be here soon.

Doubly sad: many of the FAANGers here on HN will bring it about.

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> Even if a couple in the camp is allowed to marry and has children, the children will live their entire lives in the gulag unless they escape.

Not sure what your professional experience or knowledge of politics or technology is, but as a person working at a FAANG company living in the US, I would bet any amount of money that nothing like this will ever come out of any FAANG company in the next 30 years.

Agreed, as a thrice-faanger.

I wonder if workers at IBM prior to World War II would say the same about the holocaust. Something as simple as period tracking apps can be turned against people. Sure it starts off as a marketing department, then it moves on to a domestic surveillance program for terrorism, and then you are rounding up people who get abortions and miscarry. After that, who knows? Gays? Atheists?

Agreed, and it doesn't just go one direction politically. Totalitarian governments hunted and killed Christians and capitalists with tremendous zeal throughout the 20th century.

This isn't really about left/right, it's about power. Governments simply can't be trusted with the power to track and target dissidents at scale.

We nerds are to a great extent the modern gatekeepers of that power. If people ask you to track and suppress free speech don't do it. It starts there.

Ahem.

> "The Dragonfly project was an Internet search engine prototype created by Google that was designed to be compatible with China's state censorship provisions. The public learned of Dragonfly's existence in August 2018, when The Intercept leaked an internal memo written by a Google employee about the project."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine)

At least the project was leaked by a MAMAA employee (it's no longer FAANG), but there might be a kind of 'internal social credit score program' being applied in the Big Tech world to get rid of those with pesky moral standards...

Incidentally this is a major reason why democratization of corporations is important - I tend to believe the regular rank-and-file would be less willing to implement something like this than the top shareholders would.

Yeah that's not a social credit system. It's a censored search engine. I'm fine with that, as a Google employee.

What if it also reports your 'bad searches' back to central control and uses that as a factor in calculating your social credit score?

Yeah maybe, but this is absolutely nothing like what I was responding to. Maybe Google will build tools for authoritarian regimes, maybe they'll sell them to US gov, who knows. None of that is anything like what I was responding to, a system of forced labor camps and heritable servitude. That's just not the world we live in.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It's not that a company like Google is going to release a Google Gulag product after years of working on it in secret.

What people are worried about is that the various pieces of technology that Google is developing can be used to make a horrible dystopian future and that one day, even if Google as a corporation, or the individuals who make up Google as employees decide to fight against it, they will be unable to stop a fascist government from using that technology to do exactly as is described by OP, or even worse.

There are unintended consequences to everything, and you may think that America is the freest nation on Earth, and that Google is the greatest company ever, but that could quickly change.

It could happen here, and we must be eternally vigilant.

Sure, and internal combustion engines were critical in allowing the Nazis to overwhelm their European neighbors. But like ads and product recommendations, internal combustion engines are overwhelmingly used for good so we accept that bad actors can sometimes misuse them.

> But like ads and product recommendations, internal combustion engines are overwhelmingly used for good

Without internal combustion engines (at least until electric replaces them), billions will starve as tractors can't plow fields, and trucks can't deliver food.

Without online ads and spying...?

See you have to insert the word "spying" to make your case, because by itself there's clearly just nothing wrong with personalized ads. Online ads are good because they make tons of business and economic activity possible and connect people to products that they want. People are better on the whole with online ads.

There are ways to misuse ads, but it's hard to make the case that they are inherently bad without inserting weasel words like "surveillance" and "spying".

The prolific use of internal combustion engines is a large part of why our planet is warming which is causing the impending collapse of food chains and societies across the world.

I don't accept the premise that advertisements and product recommendations are even comparable to either themselves, or the internal combustion engine, nor that what Google produces is even comparable to traditional advertisements.

I only accept begrudgingly what bad actors like Google do with technology, and only because I don't really have any other choice, do I?

Hint: They won't say "develop software to oppress the people". It will say "develop software to track child abuse and criminal activity" and "develop software to track people's preferences to be better able to help them find the products they need" and very slowly devolve from there, one incident at a time.

> None of that is anything like what I was responding to, a system of forced labor camps

I saw stories from the US about debtor prisons and about for-pay prisons with very questionable tactics used to fill them, people who cannot fight back because they have no money, often don't ever get an actual date in court but are forced to submit to accepting a sentence because the prosecutor threatens them with trying to get an outrageous sentence should they actually want a real judgement.

https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/coercive-plea-...

It's old: https://elibrary.law.psu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&ht...

I think your opinion on what is possible in the US justice system depends on where you are, i.e. location, as well as in the social hierarchy.

This is a slippery slope argument, and by itself is just a restatement of your belief that ads are bad. I don't think there's any plausible path from building ads and product recommendations to gulags. Maybe if we go another 20 years without anything like that happening anywhere in the world you'll be convinced?

See also: newspaper, radio, television, cable television, internet, mobile

There's been an unceasing procession of potentially-abused technologies in modern times, and we've more or less managed to thread the needle.

Instead of pessimism, I'd encourage people to engage in advocacy groups for their desired outcome!

What if every time you use it someone dies?

“When it comes time to hang the capitalists, they will vie with each other for the rope contract.” - attributed to Lenin, probably apocryphal, but accurate.

It really depends on the government(s) in which the FAANGs exist. They're not quite powerful enough to escape governments.

If the USA goes all the way towards fascism, the FAANGs will go along for the ride and implement all sorts of terrible things.

Sure I believe that, but I think because of the way these companies operate internally and because of the extraordinary amount of transparency and voice given to employees employees (particularly at Google and Facebook where I have worked), these companies would be amongst the most difficult for a hypothetical fascist US gov to use for nefarious purposes. I've worked at 3 other large US tech companies (Qualcomm, Intel, APC) besides these, and they are radically more ethically malleable and able to conceal bad things from their employees.

All of them have done and are doing ethically questionable things already, and they really haven't had much trouble keeping people working there. Google and Facebook would be the first two I'd expect to go along with whatever awfulness, if they're not driving it themselves.

Perhaps this is cultural difference at play here, before you downvote this comment to oblivion I'd like you to hear me out.

In India, we were expected to create value for our stakeholders, and bringing personal political views into office is deemed highly unprofessional. This doesn't stop the junior talents that are highly influenced by foreign media to have a go at it, but they're often silenced with righteous resolve.

Tldr: Employees that openly engages in activism are often seen as problematic elements, which severely degrade the cohesion and unity of a company, therefore they're often the first on the chopping block. Are things different in the states?

> This doesn't stop the junior talents that are highly influenced by foreign media

I don't understand. They are not influenced by the local media, somehow? Only "foreign" one? What is the magical mechanism behind that?

And of course, it's only "activism" when it does against the accepted order. The activism supporting current powers flows much more smoothly and does not cause any such ripples, so you conclude it does not exist?

This isnt cultural. This "deemed unprofessional" and "silenced with righteous resolve" is just reflective of the relative power differential between employee and employer. It's an artefact of capitalism.

It also doesnt happen when the employee has more power.

> bringing personal political views into office is deemed highly unprofessional

Ethics are not politics. Engineers should be required to refuse unethical orders and work.

Oh c'mon, have some imagination. Have you not seen Black Mirror?

S3E1, specifically.

That's a TV show

One that shows a very plausible reality where FAANG comes out with a rating system, and how that might potentially go down.

> Not sure what your professional experience or knowledge of politics or technology is

I’m not sure how far back in time your experience or knowledge of politics or technology goes, but there are plenty of examples of the US government using technology of all levels to target and control individuals deemed “troublesome”.

Yeah for sure, but Google wasn't doing it.

It already exists in the US. Every person is scored by data brokers based on their address and income.

That's a credit score, not a social credit score.

It isn't credit score. That isn't easy to peddle in because it requires authorization to access. Data brokers have their own scoring system based on all the other unregulated data they have on every person.

The fundamental difference is not perfectly clear to me.

That's not really true either. The US credit score is a type of social credit score.

Case in point: You generally cannot be a responsible adult, living within your means, and expect to have a credit score. Most utilities won't report on-time payments (and usually won't report until you are a few months late, sometimes only if you have a late final bill). Most landlords don't report. Saving for a used car doesn't earn you credit, and credit generally doesn't care if you have enough money in the bank or if you earn enough, at least if you aren't rich, anyway.

Basically, you need to have the right sort of credit history and borrow in the correct fashion: For most folks, this means getting a credit card or paying too much for a used car just to prove that one day, they might be reliable enough for a new car loan or a house loan. In the meantime: Don't go into medical debt. Don't avoid most debt and simply live within your means. Don't check your credit too much (This is around 10% of your score).

And not doing things correctly affects where you'll be allowed to live, where you can work, how much you pay for car insurance, and things like that.

Just because it isn't just like another countries doesn't mean it isn't a social score with a different name.

It was explained to me like this: the credit score is not a credit score in the sense you might imagine. It doesn't track your likelihood to repay. It's a score indicating your likely aggregate profitability to banks as a borrower.

That does make sense, though it makes it that much more of a horror that places are using it to determine whether or not you'll make a good employee or a good renter. "You won't make money for the bank, so pay more for insurance and don't rent here". Those places definitely use it differently than the folks providing the scores.

None of the behaviors you describe are social behaviors, they are financial behaviors. Social factors are why they have to add the word "social" to the term "credit score".

Framing zero-debt as being a "responsible adult" and "living within your means" doesn't make sense as a counter-argument. It's not social as it doesn't involve other people. For eg, your credit score isn't affected by the social associations you have with other people (with maybe the exception of marriage because that combines non-social assets). Your credit score isn't affected by your social interactions with other people. For eg, sharing your anarchist views with other people or maybe a bank teller doesn't affect your score.

It's also just untrue, leveraging zero-interest loans and loan perks like purchase protection can be very responsible and still living within your means.

So it's a social credit score, but not their social credits score, its our social credit score, and that makes it okay :)

You don't need a FAANG compaby to do this - just a sqlite database and sufficient motivation for prosecuting some cyberbullying campaigns

I mean, hell, how many facebook groups are out there that feed on persecuting outgroups? You dont need a central state to do this stuff. A state can provide the NKVD/Stasi but its peoples neighbours who use it to screw one another. Deliver them Facebook and they'll do most of a social credit system for you

>Doubly sad: many of the FAANGers here on HN will bring it about.

If that's how things go hopefully they can implement it fast enough that they will be around to live through it all crashing down.

It would be unjust if uninvolved future generations wound up paying for their ancestors' sins.

Do you feel similar about the climate catastrophe?

It’s already here, we just have better names like FICO, and Terrorist Watch Lists.

If you don’t think the government doesn’t have a file on you, you haven’t been paying attention.

FICO gets pulled into these discussions all the time, and yet it makes no sense.

That only impact what rates your lenders will use(or if they will lend you money at all). That's no different from using your driving history and demographic data to set insurance rates. It's maintained by private companies. You can still use cash if you want.

No fly lists are an ok example. Still, they are not tied to how much brown nosing you do towards the people in charge.

FICO impacts a lot more than just how much borrowing money cost including insurance rates (except for CA, HI, MA) and a lot of rentals (both to deny, increase costs, and having to pay for your credit report to be run).

That's not true. FICO rates affect where you're allowed to live, what kind of modes of transportation you're allowed to have (many insurers take it into account to decide whether or not to provide coverage), even some health procedures (many dental practices now check credit score), etc...

Can you recommend a reference for this? Was trying to explain why credit is important to someone who doesn’t want a credit card.

https://borrowell.com/blog/what-credit-score-do-you-need-to-...

https://content.naic.org/cipr-topics/credit-based-insurance-...

https://www.vincentjnardone.com/healthcare-blog/2015/02/nece...

But only in the sense of financial risk.

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me that people who are entering some sort of financial contract with you have the ability to easy see your credit history.

But again, just don't use credit (or use it minimally) and you're good.

>That doesn't seem unreasonable to me that people who are entering some sort of financial contract with you have the ability to easy see your credit history.

...Do keep in mind that the progenitors of Equifax and the other Credit Bureaus were private investigators most frequently hired by the well heeled in order to "gauge trustworthyness", which takes many forms... Including Union busting, and building blacklists.

It's not really about financial risk. It's about trust. The FICO score is being used as a proxy for trust, which is problematic.

If you don't use credit or use it minimally your credit score will begin to fall.

The federal government uses credit reports for security checks.

Maybe start with them?

> You can still use cash if you want.

The people who have bad credit scores are the exact same people who cannot, in fact, use cash if they want.

> You can still use cash if you want.

A large number of stores around me, including some grocery stores, no longer take cash.

>A large number of stores around me, including some grocery stores, no longer take cash.

That's illegal where I live (New York City).

I have no interest in outing/doxxing you, but if you'd care to share where you live, I'd love to know where that is -- so I can make sure never to go there.

The Netherlands is almost entirely cashless now.

Huh, I would have thought the Dutch would be especially keen for a right to pay in legal tender without middlemen...

>The Netherlands is almost entirely cashless now.

Not according to DeNederlandsche Bank[0]:

"Consumers in the Netherlands can choose their preferred method of payment at most retailers. Although the use of cash at points of sale is declining, broad acceptance by retailers is also important – for example as a fall-back option in the event of POS terminal disruptions. The study, in which over 1,000 retailers participated, shows that cash is still the most widely accepted means of payment for point-of-sale transactions, at 97% (see Figure 1). Debit card payments are the next most popular payment method, with acceptance standing at 87%. There are substantial differences between individual sectors, however. Acceptance of cash and debit cards is the highest at petrol stations, large and small retailers, at >=98% and >=92%, respectively. It is the lowest in the entertainment sector, at 93% for cash and 80% for debit cards. A mere 3% of all retailers said they used a debit card-only policy, mostly for efficiency and security reasons."

I'd also note that it was the non-acceptance of cash to which I was objecting, not the ability to use non-cash payment methods. Perhaps that's a difference that's too subtle, but I don't think so.

[0] https://www.dnb.nl/en/general-news/2020/dutch-retailers-cont...

I visited TU Delft a few years ago, having unfortunately lost my debit card a few days prior. It was only a single overnight stay, so I just took a few hundred Euros cash with me and hoped for the best.

It was a nightmare. Cash was wildly impractical to use. The first hurdle was the inability to buy a bus pass from the machine at the airport with cash. Hell, you couldn't even buy a coffee from a vending machine. With every restaurant I had to check beforehand to see if they would accept cash - and the vast majority didn't. I survived, but I'm glad it was only a day.

I don't care if the stats say only 3% of retailers are cashless - in Delft, at least, if all you have in your pocket is a wad of cash, you are a second class citizen and barely able to function in society. If you don't agree, I suggest you try the experiment yourself :)

>If you don't agree, I suggest you try the experiment yourself :)

I'll take you at your word. I guess it sucks to be you.

I don't agree or disagree. Rather, DeNederlandsche Bank disagrees with your assessment. Take it up with them, I have no skin in that game.

I'm in Seattle.

Technically the grocery store I am thinking off takes "cash" but only at registers that are perpetually closed. Maybe if someone made a huge fuss they would possibly open that register up.

Local barber shop, also only accepts credit cards.

At other stores, I've seen plenty of those self checkout terminals with the cash slot taped shut and a sign saying "card only", and of course no one is working the traditional checkout lanes.

>I'm in Seattle.

Interesting. I've visited there a bunch of times and never had an issue using cash. I have a bunch of family there and will ask them if they see the same thing (Seattle is a pretty big town).

Do you care that stores make it hard to use cash?

I'd expect that many folks in Seattle are "unbanked" and are often inconvenienced and/or excluded by such practices.

Perhaps it's time for Seattle to move into the late 20th century[0] and require businesses to accept cash:

"New York City Council member Ritchie Torres last week proposed legislation that would require all local businesses to accept cash in addition to credit cards and contactless payment methods. Massachusetts has required since 1978 that no retailer "shall discriminate against a cash buyer by requiring the use of credit." New Jersey lawmakers on Monday advanced a bill to ban cashless stores. Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. have also introduced bills that would require businesses to accept cash."

The NYC legislation[1] mentioned above as a proposal was passed by the city council in 2020.

[0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cashless-retailers-penalize-the...

[1] https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3...

It isn't a majority of stores or anything, however there are enough places that I've started to notice.

I wonder if the move away from cash is an attempt to reduce the risk of theft, but I have no direct knowledge of the situation.

Even the local (large, very large) Chinese supermarket is mostly cash-less. I presume technically they take cash, but every checkout line that is staffed says "card only".

What country do you live in?

I'm in Seattle. I'm not saying every store is like this, but in a given week I'll hit up one or two stores that do not use cash.

Don't forget about known traveler number (KTN) and X-KEYSCORE

FAANGers will not bring this about,they will simply better enable society to get to where it is going.

With the much needed reorganization of our society based on our ancestry (who our parents are, where they came from, what they did) and who we choose to be (the genders and politics we identify with), we can better apply the ancestry/gender/political matrix to decide what goods/books/movies/blogs get produced, who produces them, who gets to run companies, who gets to be president or on the supreme court, what gets taught in schools, how money is distributed, who gets what type of health care, who gets to live where, etc.

Technology will be used to help us get to this better and more equitable future more quickly, more efficiently, and most importantly, will make sure economic and political equity is transparently tracked and apportioned appropriately based on each individuals relative needs.

I really do not think that the FAANGers here will create this future, they will simply provide the tools for what is currently happening.

Songbun is actually a good word we can use for it as it creeps into western society.

Songbun sounds delicious, I wanna eat one

I believe the pronunciation sounds more like sung-poon.

Oh, that's different, but I still wanna eat some.

Yes, its Hangul rendition is 성분 and it originally (and, in South Korea, only) meant ingredients in materials, typically chemical.

In other words, a literalization of human resources?

Unfortunately, each songbun contains a parasitic cyberworm that latches onto your intestine walls and monitors your drug and alcohol intake to ensure you're not ingesting anything illicit (or too much booze).

It sounds like an SCP I read

> Sad: This type of social credit score system seems pervasive and will no doubt be here soon.

Where is here? If you mean somewhere in the western world: are you willing to bet on it?

We'll invent evil cyberpunk tech to serve more relevant ads then governments will use it to create the panopticon.

I would sooner put it down to the 500 no-name data collection companies that come up when you look at a website's GDPR/cookie disclosures. The ones with ever-so-subtle descriptions like "Matches online activity with offline accounts."

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