Hacker News Reader

Comment by edw519 | Hacker News Reader

Horrible. This news is so tragic I really can't focus on anything else now. Which is probably the way it should be.

Our community stresses the importance of achievement, success, and technology so much that it's easy to forget what's really most important: each other. Sometimes it takes terrible news like this to jerk us back to that reality.

I never knew Ilya, but if any of his friends of family visits this forum, please know that many thoughts and prayers are with you.

I have no idea what was behind this, so just a few (possibly related) thoughts:

- Let's never forget that everything we do is for other people. They outrank all the ones and zeros. Go hug someone important to you.

- If you ever believe the possibility of something like happening is > .00001, do something, anything. If you don't know what to do, contact me (see my profile) and I'll help in any way I can. Nothing can be more important.

- This was the ultimate failure. I'm so sorry to hear this and hope that Ilya's family and friends somehow find peace.

View on HN

>> If you ever believe the possibility of something like happening is > .00001, do something, anything. If you don't know what to do, contact me (see my profile) and I'll help in any way I can.

Its a nice thought, but people in this position often don't want help.

My best Friend was doing a PHD in a Biochemistry related field at University College London back in 2003. He was an outgoing person, had a hot girlfriend and lots of friends. He had a what seemed like a great life and an even better future.

One night we went out together and had a great night. We went our separate ways about 4am and I we arranged to meet at 5pm the next day.

At 2pm the next afternoon I got a call from his flat mate saying that he had committed suicide. He had access to all kinds of chemicals and substances at the as part of his PHD and he had been taking little bits for months and months and making a potent cocktail of poison. He drank the poison and died instantly.

There was no note, no explanation and no reason anyone knew. I was the last person (friend) to see him alive.

I guess I'm saying - even balanced, successful people have their reasons and you will never know or be told what they are.

Unfortunately, an outgoing personality is a great way to protect yourself from people asking you the very painful question of "what's wrong"...I know now, after wrestling with depression for years, that sometimes it's harder to face your depression and explain your pain to others than it is to simply be depressed in the first place. What better way to defend yourself than by acting exactly opposite of how you really are?

I'm sorry man, but that sounds awful. I'm a depression alumni with you. I did it all for a good 7 years - hopelessness, suicidal thoughts, then medication, then "fuck medication, I'm fine!" and "fuck medication! It doesn't work!", then heavy drug use and addiction, and counseling throughout.

The feeling can be beyond words and the energy needed to talk about it seems beyond us but I've gone the pretend route where you put on a brave face and act like a different person and it's just not healthy. It leads to you being even more depressed and no one having a clue which is so dangerous. I don't have the answers to getting over it (which I have done, personally) but I do know that acting like a different person isn't a good way to go. I hope you're better these days, feel free to get in touch if not. I'd be happy to talk about whatever.

I'll reach out soon, thanks for the reply!

Fwiw, I believe depression has certain deepness of thought and getting over with it is better than not getting it at all in the first place.

I wrote about depression a while ago - http://sk.or.at/elou9l - maybe you will find words that help you in my post. Always remember: You only fail in things that you do, not in who you are.

If someone is at that stage where you are contemplating this, here is a tip....just do it. By that I mean commit suicide of your _current_ life, not of life. Most of what weights someone down are the fears, struggles, embarrassment, your peer groups, jobs, etc. If you can't find a way through it, just leave it. Give all your stuff away, give away your money, give up your computer, leave your friends and family, pack a backback, travel to Africa, resign your life to helping others. Think of it as you ended your life and now you're just a servant to others. You don't have any aspirations of success, any ladders to climb, just live to help others.

Go without any plans, any future, just go and see what happens. You'll be free. It may be dangerous, you might not make it, but if your other choice was death the day before, then everything now is just gravy anyways. Don't worry about it.

This may sound silly and simple and extreme, but if you _are_ at that stage then this should be your stop gap. From now on when you're in that dark spot just think about when you're going to pull the trigger on this, not on yourself.

Of course there are lots of things you can do before it comes to this, but if you're past that, just leave your current life totally.

I'm not sure this is good advice. I have no experience of this kind of thing, but it seems to me that cutting yourself off from everybody who cares about you is one of the worst things you can do. Now you have no money, no friends, no family, and nothing to stop you when you next start to feel like jumping off a cliff.

It sounds like a good start to a story, but bad real-world advice.

I had an ex-gf who worked on a suicide hotline, and apparently one of the most powerful things they had in their arsenal were questions like "Who do you think would find your body?" and "How do you think it would affect them?" and other encouragements for suicidal person to think about how their suicide would affect those around them. If you're backpacking alone in Africa, having taken your leave from everybody in your life two months ago, it seems like there'd be a lot less to keep you.

You miss the point. You would have already jumped off a cliff. This is one thing you do before. Of course try all the other things. But if you _are_ on the ledge, consider this before. If you think about it, is the consideration of this is similar to "who will find your body, how will they feel". It's one additional stop gap to prevent the worse outcome.

I don't think that's how it works.

(Also, no offence, but I'm disinclined to take suicide-prevention advice from anyone named "necro"...)

I can confirm (at least in my experience + the experience of others I know who suffer from serious clinical depression) this is not how (serious) depression works.

I sincerely doubt it would make any difference, largely because of how you feel about life + yourself (it would require an acceptance of capability of doing such things) + the point of trying to help such a horrid world. I think the more immediate consideration of those people finding your body, etc. will be more effective as that's something undeniable and forces you to consider others in a non-fanciful way.

you have a romanticized idea of depression.

Your theory about the genesis of suicidal ideation is not based in fact. Read "Suicide as Escape From Self".

Someone on 4chan(I know)wrote a comment similar to yours regarding suicide, saying that "If you're willing to give up your life and kill yourself, your life is now yours and the world is your oyster." The comment was hotly debated on Reddit, and one school of thought shared among a large set of people was that this way of thinking is absolutely false. A person who is so unwilling to go through life that they would consider taking it isn't going to be able to just pack his stuff and go to Africa - the depression has set in so badly that they can't even get out of bed to face the day. These people feel their suffering is so great that others would be better off if that person weren't around so that they didn't have to suffer because of him.

Of course it's different for everyone, but it's easy to say "Sell your possessions and go forth" - not everyone can do it though, being not willing or able.

The problem with this strategy is what Buckaroo Banzai said: "No matter where you go, there you are."

In other words, a lot of the time the things that are making you unhappy are internal: lack of confidence, self-esteem, self respect, or non-functional brain chemistry. Sure, if there's something weighing you down (a bad relationship or job) then change it. But if you're unhappy with everything in your life then what you need to change is yourself.

This is dangerous bullshit, frankly. The big problem with it is that in serious depression the source of depression is not your immediate circumstances, rather it's something deeper/more pervasive and by running away you are not actually solving anything.

The experience of clinical depression is so unutterably horrible that unless you've experienced it you can't know what it's like. There is a huge gulf between moderate depression and the clinical variety. In the depths of serious depression you barely have the energy to get out of bed let alone help anybody, and suggesting that somebody ought to give up aspirations to help these poor, helpless Africans (which country in Africa I might ask - I think natives of African nations might take offence here) is actually more likely to inspire feelings of guilt and isolation than a sense of hope.

The best solution for somebody experiencing issues is to seek professional guidance and not take romanticised + frankly fanciful advice from a random person on a news site.

Sorry to be harsh, but this could affect somebody out there and I think it needs to be said.

*just to confirm to anyone who read this and was concerned about my well-being: I am not suicidal. I appreciate the responses though and am glad to have contributed to this conversation. I think the stigma around mental health discussions is horrible and to see these things discussed in a public forum is fantastic, though the circumstances leading to this discussion are obviously very sad and grim. Hopefully events like this will open more people's eyes to the realization that depression is very common (especially amongst techies and startup founders) and it becomes easier for people to discuss this stuff moving forward as it literally can save lives if it's discussed more freely.

Where does it say that Ilya committed suicide?

It doesn't. People are assuming that the lack of explanation + his young age = suicide.

It may end up being the case, but at the moment, people are just speculating.

It is true that people his age don't usually die of disease, but that still leaves other options than suicide. The most common for males 15-24, according to http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa-cause-of-death-by-age..., are traffic accidents, violence, suicide, poisoning "other injuries," and drowning, in that order.

Traffic accident would have been my first guess, being the most common death cause amongst the people I knew. I didn't think of suicide till I read the comments.

CNN Money reports that it was confirmed suicide.

It would say how he died if it were anything other than suicide.

CNN Money says a source close to the company confirmed it was a suicide:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/14/technology/diaspora_cofounde...

Yep, and unbalanced people who had access to organic chem labs might hold on to something for years and years till some minor trigger happens. One of the risk factors for suicide is knowing someone who has done it. Her lab lost 2 in one year, then at least one 10 years on.

My older sister once gave told me 'never commit suicide hungover' (even though I wasn't feeling particularly depressed at the time). It respected that there are valid reasons for feeling down, while highlighting the need for a wider view than the current bad feeling.

My recent reocurring suicidal thoughts while being hungover drove me to quit drinking altogether.

Now that I'm sober the motives for ending my life seem banal in hindsight. Cheers to your sister.

It's not just our community. There are twice as many suicides as homicides in the U.S.[1] Yet, every nightly newscast is sure to cover the murders. How many talk about the suicides? Worse, suicide is the leading cause of death among college students [2]. It's an epidemic that no one talks about. We've already lost two freshman at MIT this year.

[1] http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/01/suicide-vs-homicide-b...

[2] http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/nov/07/uva-study-sui...

Well at least suicide is a legitimate personal choice. Murder is not.

I'm not sure anyone that depressed is entirely capable of "choice".

And this is probably not the best moment for ethical theory.

Just like how Depression is a choice and OCD is a choice and Schizophrenia is a choice.

Your views on mental health are a bit last century.

Suicide isn't a mental illness like depression and OCD and Schizophrenia. While I do agree that this isn't the best time for "ethical theory," I also agree with thomasgerbe in that suicide is a fundamental human right. If one has no desire to continue living, who are you to force them to?

The complication is that most life choices are to some extent reversible in case of mistake. Suicide is not, and therefore is subject to more delicate considetation. Also, for anyone not a hermit, suicide affects other people who may have moral or legal claims of dependency.

Your ability to make this decision would be impaired if you had a mental illness like depression.

Of course suicide isn't a mental illness. How about you have a look at some facts from the US NIMH [1], how about I summarise some poignant facts:

"Research shows that risk factors for suicide include: depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors."

So, you're happy to condemn 90% of people who commit suicide to go and 'make that choice' because 'it's their right'?

I don't disagree that it's anyone's so-called 'right' to kill themselves, but when 90% of individuals who do so are suffering from mental illness or substance abuse disorders, I think it's far to broad and naive (not to mention downright heartless) to fob it off as a mere 'choice'.

Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide? I bet that if someone close to you, whom was having a hard time (by stretch of the mind I wouldn't say it's too difficult to imagine in this economy, the loss of a job and a home could be a sufficient trigger for a Major Depressive Episode), decided to kill themselves over a temporary hardship.

I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position. You my friend are very wrong.

[1] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-u...

I never condemned anyone, nor did I say that I support suicide. What I support is the ability to choose freely the course of one's life.

I'm curious to know what percentage of the general population suffers from mental and/or substance abuse disorders, in comparison with that 90%.

And no, I have not known anyone personally who has killed themselves, at least not to the best of my knowledge. I do know, however, that I myself suffer from a number of "mental disorders" and at one point found myself a good bit suicidal.

If someone close to me did kill themselves, of course I wouldn't just say "ah well," that's being unrealistic. I'd be just as affected by it as if they got hit by a bus. My views on death are much different than most, though, so regardless of the manner or intent, it wouldn't affect me anywhere near the same way as you. No position changed, you lose your bet.

"Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide?"

Yes. My cousin did by jumping and my sister attempted by overdose. Though I called an ambulance which saved her life. I won't argue that people shouldn't intervene when they can.

'I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position.'

Not really. She's gone through a lot of shit. Meds. Psychiatrist. Friends. Hobbies. Boyfriends. Family. They help but they aren't the answer to everyone. And so if she attempts to commit suicide again and is successful I would be deeply saddened but at least know that she found a peace that she couldn't find in life.

Hell, even I experience that same lows. What is the point of having someone suffer through an existence which there is no solution that corrects the problem?

Both depression/suicide and dietary habits run in families and reoccur over multiple generations.

Low serum cholesterol has been shown to be a suicide risk factor. [1]

Get you cholesterol tested and try adding more good fats to your diet like oily cold-water fish (think salmon and sardines), butter, eggs (including the yolk!), and coconut milk/oil. You should aim for a low LDL and a high HDL number.

Anecdotally, have you ever seen how most teens and soldiers in the US eat? Their diets are low on good fats and high in bad carbohydrates that will send your cholesterol and triglyceride levels out-of-wack. A diet of Red Bull and Doritos will mess you up.

[1] http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/...

You have a misunderstanding of the causes of suicide. Read "Suicide as Escape From Self".

Depression is a choice? You surely don't know how Depression work. You don't choose getting into a car accident, in the same way you don't choose Depression. Stuffs happen, not because people "chose" it.

The person you're replying to was being sarcastic. He was not being serious when he said "depression is a choice", etc. He was trying to highlight what he saw as the absurdity of the post to which he was replying.

To me, suicide is murder of self. Who's sicker: the one murdering another, or the one murdering oneself? Also, many murderers kills others first, then themselves.

Maybe this Diaspora fellow thought people wanted to kill him, so he thought he'd do it himself to save them the trouble because he'd already let them down once. Who knows.. but that's an ill thought process to have.

I may be the odd man out here, but I have to say that I think suicide is a inalienable right. If I own nothing else in this world, the one thing I most certainly do own is my person. If I choose to dispose of myself, that's my right and it should be respected. While I agree that depression and other mental issues are often serious and require serious help, ultimately the decision to stay or go should be mine and should be respected. If I insist on checking out, then law and community ought to allow me to do it.

Tangentially, there should be a streamlined euthanasia option to those serving very long prison sentences.

For what it's worth, you're not the only one who believes that. My world-view is also heavily rooted in the notion of "self ownership," and I hold that an individual has a right to end their life whenever they want.

That's not to say that suicide is (often|ever|usually|whatever) a good idea; and I'd be the last to encourage someone to commit suicide. But it is a right, and I believe it can even be a totally rational choice in some cases.

Part of what liberty means is being able to exercise your rights even when they are bad ideas.

When you take yourself out, you take other people out too psychologically - relatives and close friends. Is that your right, and would you check with them beforehand? And what of the people you might have helped or saved had you lived?

If you have the right to your own life, then do you have any obligation to other people's lives? Also, how do you know you own yourself: did you create yourself or did your parents? And who created them? Would you ask your creator if it's okay to suicide, and then would you be open to answers?

Lastly, are you sure you die when you die: how do you know the pain won't go on someplace else?

From my reading, suicide thought is a transient state but with permanent consequences if acted upon.

Also, the best way to fix your mind, is to fix your body, rather than destroy it.

The notions of creator and afterlife are pure fantasy, but if you believe the fantasy then the reasoning you layer on top of it is reasonably sound.

"are pure fantasy"

haha.. whatever you say.

Depression is a choice as much as feeling pain is a choice. Some people can cope with it, others cannot. Persistence will break down any coping mechanisms.

I remember being depressed with suicidal thoughts, and basically spending the full night telling myself to stfu because I refuse to do it, yet I could not control the thoughts, only the actions taken. It was very difficult, basically the rational part of the brain desperately battling with the emotional part, and that emotional part does not seem to get tired... I cannot imagine people living this way for extended periods of time, would require help from people who care, and reaching out to em.

The down side is that depression has a component of hopelessness to it which prevents people from reaching out to others where had they had a well balanced state of mind they would.

I'm not sure about how it is in USA but a lot of countries have strict rules around the media reporting suicides, so it is deliberate that the topic is under reported.

Naturally a lot of people disagree with this and there's constantly heated debate on the future of the media's role.

They do tend to cluster, and more so when they're in the public eye.

Yeah, they are completely avoided in Australia, only time you really hear about one in the media is if it was a public figure. I don't really think this is the right thing to do, it masks that there is any problem so it doesn't get the attention it needs.

It's against broadcasting rules to publish anything relating to suicide. Especially euthanasia.

I gather that exceptions are made for exceptional news.

The usual codewords are "Police say there were no suspicious circumstances".

The more you talk about suicide, the more people commit it. It's a terrible conundrum in spreading awareness of how many people actually commit suicide. If there is a high-profile case of suicide reported, there will usually be an uptick in suicide and single car, single-passenger car crashes by people in similar demographics. There is an entire section in Cialdini's book Influence, on the social proof of suicide, and I just recently heard this Freakonomics podcast on the subject http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radi...

I worked for a newspaper in Texas, and the editors told us not to cover suicides.

Background to the debate (and the origin of the strict rules in the first place): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide

The US loses about as many troops to suicide as combat. :( http://www.congress.org/news/2011/01/24/more_troops_lost_to_...

I think we'd have a much more harmonious society if we put lithium in the water rather than fluoride. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/194/5/464.abstract

The suggestion is treating the symptoms rather than the cause though.

If, instead of just putting fluoride in the water, there was a serious effort made to reduce the amount of refined sugars in our diets, there would be many more arguably beneficial effects other than just reducing tooth decay.

Similarly, instead of thinking about lithiated water, we should really try to treat some of the causes of suicide.

In France there is four times more deaths from suicide than deaths in a car crash. Yet we have countless cops constantly roaming around, and millions spent on automated speed cameras, in the name of a policy vowed to reduce "unacceptable" life losses, but ignores the fact that 32k people actually die here per year out of sheer helplessness and despair. Somehow I can't help but think that people up there are missing something when they keep throwing money at compressing a number resulting from statistically ineluctable collisions of numerous moving objects (whose seriousness and frequency drops could just as well be explained by combined and massive improvements made to car safety, making the policy look like even more futile), while a little education of people would actually help some of us recognize early and/or late signs of depression on third parties, allowing for professional help to be reached soon enough. Depression is a bit like drowning: it actually looks nothing like you think it does, but one can be trained to recognize it [0] and reach for competent help accordingly.

[0]: http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/

It didn't really hit me until I stopped by his place. The only sign that something had happened was a paper tapped to a door saying "Party Cancelled". It's a really chocking feeling. I think I went there to know if it was true...to know what happened. As his death becomes more apparent, I don't care what happened. It's a huge loss. Ilya will be missed.

Very tragic. It's the strong mind people that are some of the most vulnerable.

RIP Ilya

You seem to be implying that he committed suicide, and that you could have done something about it.

Do you have any information about this? And why would you have been helpful in this situation?

Nothing to do with prayers. RIP Ilya.

Please, this is not the time.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com